Funding / Loans / Money

[hobbit1983]

Or the guys flying paradrop, light twins, survey, or working on the ops desk still waiting for that first job after a number of years....

[vikdream]

y calculation is based on a 2016 easyJet SO Italian contract, not taking into account a possible upgrade to the left seat. So basically SO->FO->SFO.
Of course I'm also assuming that he's not going to lose his job.

Feel free to add the 5/4 roster, the number of different european bases, the career opportunities and the lack of good alternative careers.

I say again: having a time machine I'd borrow money ASAP...does it mean I'm going to pay 40,000 £ of interests? I don't care, to me it is really worth it.

From other posts, it is quite clear you are still a wannabe, who cannot pay for training himself and is hoping to get a loan underwritten by an airline.

Well, bad news is that that is extremely difficult. Forget EZY, BA did it in the past, still your own loan.

Forget about what people say about BBVA, funding for pilot training... it is called mortgage at the end of the day, on your parents' house, with high interests.

It is not your fault to have to go through this. Some of us were not born rich. C'est la vie. I worked hard before training so that I did not have to get any mortgages. I was lucky, maybe.

I did go through one of the big three. Cadet for an airline, perm contract, excellent conditions. Join one of the big in Europe with decent contracts and you are looking at around 300.000 euros net in your pocket for 5 year employment (taking into account progression). Currently cadets in my airline have spent over 150.000 euro, which with interests will become close to 200.000 euro cost.

So 7 years, 100.000 euros benefit. Obviously it gets better after that.

But what they don't tell you is how many guys get there. They might tell you, but tsss, they lie. They play with numbers and we all believe in them.

- What if you are not selected?
- What if you end up somewhere else flying?
- Instructing?
- Not even that?

But...

- What if you can't pay back the mortage, and your parents either??

Or what if you can.. but then something happens in your life and lose your licence?

You would be surprised about reality, and how risks are HUGE in relation to possible benefits.
- What if

[bulldog89]

Originally Posted by button push ignored

...

Listen...some years ago I fully shared your ideas, so I've got a BoS(Eng), worked for a couple of airlines and I also applied to a number of cadet programs: then one day I've been "lucky" enough to be selected for a fully sponsored cadetship founded by an unmentionable airline (here on the forum) which also provided a salary during training. Of course I was as happy as one could be.

But now, looking back...I just won't do it. I gave up so much to get that job, and maybe that "so much" was worth more that 120,000£.

So my opinion is this: the best period to start training was two years ago, but even today the EU market looks good...
It's no secret that the main objective of the FTOs is making money, and the same is true for the airlines...BUT: a "cheap" ATPL is going to cost something like 60,000€ and there's also an high probability that you'll also have to pay an extra 25,000€ to get a TR...so we're talking of nearly 80,000/90,000€ plus the extras (housing, food, insurance, etc).
On the other hand there are the "big three" asking for something like 110,000/130,000€ for a frozen ATPL/MPL plus MCC, UPRT and other stuff...and a "big name" to show on your CV. I know for sure that easyJet (sorry if it's my only example but I worked there, I still have a lot of contacts and I hope it will be my "backdoor" to move back to Europe) has commercial agreements with both CTC and CAE (don't know about FTE) about low-hours pilot employment, something that ables them to save money on Sim Checks and Recurrent training sessions.

So if you really want to be an airline pilot, I think this a good time to get your licences and even if there's a lot of money involved and a fair amount of risk, to do it in one of the mentioned FTOs.
Of course mortgaging your house should be seen as the extreme last option to found your training, but if you lack alternatives and everyone involved agrees...it's risk vs. reward; if it goes well everyone is happy, if it goes bad you'll live with your parents another 15 years and work to pay back your loan...or you'll find an amazing job, become millionaire and start your own airlines...who knows?

[Cessnaflyer87]

Guys,

Just for clarity, every comment here is an opinion and remember that.

I agree, the actual cost to price ratio from the FTO's is astronomical. However they offer a product, in the same way buying a one bed flat in london may seem stupid to those who can buy a 5 bed elsewhere for the same price, it is simply a product that people may wish to buy for their circumstance. If you have the money, there is nothing wrong with using them to expedite your journey however there are great risks that must be understood and acknowledged.

I want to note, i am pursuing a modular route as i do not have the financial backing to secure the debt required. I would strongly advise someone who is looking at Ab Initio training to thoroughly review the cost and the risks associated. If there is another 9/11 and you are either still in training or recently qualified, how would you keep up with debt. Especially if you are young and can't return to a well paid job.

I work am a senior member of staff in corporate lending for a bank, so if anyone wants to discuss (no advice though, that must be sought independantly), i can give you a few figures and explain some of the risk. Just DM me if needed.

[Chris the Robot]

Personally, I wouldn't spend what I couldn't afford to lose, I applied for one cadet programme last year and one the year before that. The more recent of those was fully-funded by the airline up front, i.e. no loans, they pay everything. I nearly got offered it though didn't make it past one of the latter stage interviews.

Instead I got offered a job driving trains, which I start soon. All the training is paid for by the employer, I get a decent salary in training and assuming I pass the training, that goes up quite a lot. If I intend to apply for cadetships at a later date and that is a very big "if" (read "not likely unless the railway doesn't work out") I'll have lots of relevant safety-critical experience and after five years qualified I could probably fund an MPL cash.

So, OP and others, I'd look to start a debt free career somewhere else which pays well and offers relevant experience before making a switch to the airline world, if indeed you want to do so.

[FZRA]

Just to add context for any other wannabees finding this thread.

I went to a "cheap" modular school in the UK and sought an even cheaper IR abroad. 7 years total from PPL to fATPL and everything completed for approx £55K with zero debt.

Worked those 7 years within the industry and was offered a jet type rating (3 year bond) shortly after finishing training.

I'm meeting guys on the line, around the same age as me, who went to Oxford/CTC and still have around £80K to pay back to their bank/parents. Yet we fly the same jet for the same salary!

[PFDriver]

We can turn it the other way around: Yet they're probably 5 years younger than you (as they only spent 2 on the course) and in 2 years on the job they'll get those 80k£ back. Which still leaves them with 3 years salary advantage.

There is no such thing as a better way or a right way, it is up to each and every individual to see what their pockets allow them to pay and decide how to do it. You definitely deserve all the credit for doing it the way you did, but younger people having the responsibility that comes with 100,000£ upon their shoulders at 18/19 and succeeding deserve some credit! Thank god my family supported me through training back then and I didn't need a bank, but I felt the responsibility of all that money to the point of not being able to fall asleep just cause I was afraid of missing my 7AM flight and still have to pay for it, get a no show, etc.. Like any other student who is bright enough to have an idea of how much money we are talking about.
If I felt that way, I can imagine those paying it with a huge debt!

Just because some choose a more direct route, that doesn't mean anything is given to them or made easier. I believe we should look at both sides of the coin and I do give you all the credit, but I can understand those who do it different ways.

[wiggy]

Good post IMHO, one point/query from someone who get some approached by wannabes but who is not really up so speed on the modern finance aspect of all this.

, I would PERSONALLY prefer spending 120k (on an airline sponsored training) and knowing within 7 years I could pay it off.

Serious question: As a student signed up for one of these courses can you ever "know" that?

I ask because some do seem increasingly to regard passing the aptitude tests and getting on a course at a ATO as the hard bit, and that the rest from then on is almost assumed to be a "given" and one will progress serenely into the RHS of a shiney jet on a relatively good salary. Sadly it doesn't always work like that ....

I guess the answer might be course/airline policy with regard to course failure or withdrawal.

[wiggy]

Again in life nothing is certain. It thats the case then we might as well not do anything else in life and not risk anything.

Very very true.

I am agreeing with you that not everyone has succeeded but its definitely not the majority, otherwise PPRuNe would be filled with many more young sour grapes.

I'd agree it's not the majority, but I do wonder how many who do fall by the wayside (and some definitely do) would have the bravery it would need to post their story on Pprune?

[Officer Kite]

You could get on a plane to Florida and have all your hour building done in a couple of 2 week package holidays. 2x £500 and about £7000 for 100 hours.. (maybe a couple of grand extra if you play it smart and get your FAA IR as well

Whilst in an ideal world I would love to do this, save cash, not have to be away from home for extended periods, be able to work part time and even make cash during training etc etc

However the reality, and I can tell you this as someone who works in an airline and communicates with pilots on a daily basis, including the head of training etc. I can tell you they don't look favorably upon someone heading stateside and smashing out the hours in such time then coming back, those of senior status in this airline (i.e. those who decide what CVs go straight in the bin or those that get called) simply view that all as a cowboy job. "Anyone can go and hour build, but what is the quality of those hours?" is pretty much exactly what was said to me. I am pretty sure that is the attitude in most airlines (though admittedly not all). However as people with these mindsets move around airlines and reset standards - an airline that may give you a chance today having trained that way may not do so in the near future. It really is Russian roulette with the magnitude of the gamble.

As much as I don't like it, the reality is the majority of airlines prefer those who have been to an integrated school - this was said to me directly again.

Previously I was in doubt and felt people were talking nonsense and that modular was just as good to an airline, since joining one and speaking to the right people though I can see I was wrong - thankfully before too late.

[Prophead]

I can tell you they don't look favorably upon someone heading stateside and smashing out the hours in such time then coming back

As much as I don't like it, the reality is the majority of airlines prefer those who have been to an integrated school - this was said to me directly again.

I understand fully about the quality of flying during hour building. The whole point of the hour building is to become an aircraft commander. The best way to do this is to fly as many types as you can and try different types of flying. Some time in foreign countries is a good thing but not, as you have been told going to one place that has great weather and flying the same type until you reach the number of hours you need.

I was out in Arizona a couple of years ago doing some flying and there were students from a large integrated school doing the hour building at the same airfield.

They were doing exactly as you describe, flying one type in fantastic weather and just knocking out the hours as quickly as possible. They probably paid a hell of a lot more than I was too.

It seems to me that the modular route is far more in line with the above type of thinking than integrated.

As to the £100,000 loans, if you have the money and can afford to spend it without seeing results at the end then go for it. If you are borrowing on your own back then you better have an alternative career to pay it back once the term starts. A bank will not be interested in the fact you cannot get a job. They will want their money back.

If you are letting your parents take money from their house or savings then you have a duty to make sure they know all the facts. Aviation is one of the first and hardest hit whenever a downturn happens. If there is another 9/11 style attack or SARS type virus or financial meltdown then you will not be getting a job. Should you be employed then you will probably also find that your the first out the door if the above happens too. It doesn't even have to be that large scale, a rise in interest rates can hurt the aviation industry as it is that fragile.

What happens then? If you can make the payments then your parents will have to. If they can't then there goes their house. This may sound dramatic but that is the reality. It has happened before and it will happen again.

There are many, many modular guys flying airliners for a living and after that first job nobody cares about how you trained. The only reason we have the likes of CTC is because people are willing to pay for it, not because there was ever a shortage of competent pilots.

[clamchowder]

A lot of rubbish flying around on this thread. Oxford is a good choice to get a job and fund your passion.
95+% of airline pilots I fly with went to CTC or Oxford, not phil's flying school at a grass strip. (I make no conclusions to the quality of training at small outfits, merely success with getting a jet job)
A lot of people looking for jobs that don't want to compete against you on here.
Oxford and CTC are being hoovered by easyjet and others at the moment. There hasn't been so much recruitment in over 10 years!! You make the right choice in oxford.
I'd ask family/ well off friends and banks face to face and see what they say. The pool is getting very small at the moment. I heard from a TRI/TRE that the CAA are telling airlines they need think ahead more than they are because in a few years there won't be enough people willing to pay to train! (I've simplified what was said, there were graphs and everything )
Bull by the horns! Do what you can to get the dough and go to OAA or CTC. The new FOs around me at the moment (all from one of the 2) are getting in to hold pools or positions in 1-3 months out of flight school, sub 6 months in EVERY case I've heard.
Perhaps this is because they take the top 10% from each class to go to an airline which would mean my perspective isn't representative... perhaps. Those integrated are 120k+
It took me 3 years to get a job.

[FZRA]

The new FOs around me at the moment (all from one of the 2) are getting in to hold pools or positions in 1-3 months out of flight school, sub 6 months in EVERY case I've heard.

That's great, and I wish them all the best.

But are you saying that 100% of Oxford/CTC graduates make the holding pool for a jet job?

Also, if you check the initial post of this thread (which has now gone wildly off topic) it was a guy considering doing modular training at Oxford.

The benefits of Integrated schools are well known, and there is no doubt that if you have £120K cash to spend then this is your best chance (note, not guarantee) of landing a jet job.

But I don't think we should encourage wannabees to get themselves in vast amounts of debt unless they are willing to face the consequences of paying back that debt on a Flight Instructors salary, should they be one of the unlucky ones who don't end up in the jet holding pool right away.

[KayPam]

Originally Posted by lostinspace89

That doesn't mean you cannot go the modular route for 60k total and not find a job. Many are lucky to get into ryanair, pay a type rating for 25k euro and get that first job. Though don't be fooled either that if ryan air have applicants from Oxford and applicants from a mixed modular in poland, czech etc they are likely to give the Oxford candidate a higher chance. I also have friends in pilot recruitment for a large airline and its all point based and training when you're low houred is very important. So although there are many inspiring stories out there of people spending 40 to 50k ONLY, in the end after doing the math, I would PERSONALLY prefer spending 120k (on an airline sponsored training) and knowing within 7 years I could pay it off. Will I be comfortable? NO. But neither would I be comfortable spending 60k for a CPL , then 25-35k for a type rating with no job.

Could we please come up with a best employability/cost ratio ?
It seems like FTE Jerez, at 10k below Oxford/CTC (for the CPL->JOC), with almost the same opportunities afterwards (??) is a very good candidate, doesn't it ?

Ideally, one would compile a list of all preferred FTOs by the different airlines and compute the optimum ratio (or choose based on another criteria) but this data seems hard to get all together.

Could someone please give us that kind of list at least for one airline ?

[MaverickPrime]

Let's say you borrow the £120k, you get the job at the end of training and you can pay back the money no problem! Guess what happens next.... life happens....you meet a bird, you decide to get serious, you end up married, she is expecting and you want to buy a house ..... bla bla bla etc etc ...... believe me, it'll all happen very quick!

As great as flying an airliner is, it's still just a job! You need to have a life outside of flying to keep you sane, its very hard get on with the rest of your life when you have £120k on your credit report!!

[Chris the Robot]

Spot on Maverick, it is just a job after all.

As soon as people wake up to this and take a more discerning view of the opportunities the better.

Hopefully what Clamchowder has said re: the CAA will be correct and that airlines will start funding the process as a result.

[KayPam]

I compiled this much data tonight :
This is a list of all flight schools I'm interested in (or could be interested in) with their price, in euros, trying to include everything (skill test and CAA fee particularly) but not accomodation nor food.
When they did not provide a JOC or a MCC/JOC, I added an discretionary price of 4450€ (that's simtech's price)

Could anyone tell me the first flight school that will be reputable enough to facilitate getting interviews ?
Would you add any school at all to that list ? Or remove one ?

STAPLEFORD FLIGHT CENTRE 29000
DFAS 29100
Airways 30500
Ravenair 32100
BCFT 32400
FTA 33800
AFTA 34800
Advanced flight training 37800
FTE 45500
CTC 51900
Oxford 57600

[hobbit1983]

KayPam,

If you are dead set on getting into an airline job ASAP, unfortunately in my experience you need to go CTC Wings or Oxford (just my experience. Not a hard rule). You'll pay more but have a much better chance (sadly).

[KayPam]

Originally Posted by hobbit1983

KayPam,

If you are dead set on getting into an airline job ASAP, unfortunately in my experience you need to go CTC Wings or Oxford (just my experience. Not a hard rule). You'll pay more but have a much better chance (sadly).

Are you talking about integrated ?
Integrated, in my case, would be a waste of time and money.
Time because it lasts for 18 months whereas I could do my modular training in the remaining 10 months of this year at minimum.
Money because well.. about 100k€ is twice or more than twice the price. Plus for each month spent not working you can add my not earned salary to the bill.

I've learnt about the existence of Kura aviation yesterday night. They provide a very expensive MCC/JOC but they seem to offer high-end services in helping their graduates find a job.

Since it is today much harder to find a job than do actually do the job, I think it could be a good solution.

Couple them with the cheapest CPL MEIR and you're fully qualified for 40ke, compared to 55k for oxford modular (and an MCC/JOC which you don't know if it will be as useful afterwards)

Am I wrong ?

Originally Posted by button push ignored

But if your goal is to get an interview.
Wouldn't some previous flight experience make what school you went to irrelevant?

It indeed looks like one need to have a "brandname" on their CV in order to get interviews more easily..
A guy I know went straight from FTE to Norwegian without meeting the requirements they state on their website. Just because he was from FTE.

[KayPam]

Well its rather 12 months and I'm already two months in, so ten months remaining.
For ATPL theory to fATPL.
Regarding hours building well.. In six months of ATPL theory I could fly 100 hours if I had the money to do it ! I'm only 20 hours of PIC short of the minima.

Most schools I see indicate 4 to 6 months for the practical phase.
So I counted 6 months (ATPL theory) + 2 contingency months (delays before entering the school, before taking the ATPL exams). For the practical phase, spanish weather at FTE should allow it in 3 months, from september to november. December being the MCC/JOC phase so not weather restricted.
That's only if they have a slot for me though.

As of now, I'm right on schedule regarding ATPL theory. Half the time reading the books, half the time answering questions, that's about 80-100 pages per day during the books half and then 200-250 questions per day during the other half of the time.
I passed my first "school exams" with scores between 88-100% (Air law, Ops, instruments, comms) in less than two months.
I will take these exams on 17/02, that's two weeks "lost", included in the two contingency months.

It requires working on it every day, including new years eve and christmas, though.

If I don't pass flight skill tests on the first attempt well.. It doesn't matter being behind schedule because who is going to recruit me after that ? Even Ryanair won't.