Type Rating Cost - definitive answers please!
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Type Rating Cost - definitive answers please!
Hi all.
I am very new to this and really didn't want to start my own thread being a posting noob but I am stumped on this one. I also understand that while I myself usually belong in the "professional pilot training" forums, this question relates more to interviews and employment down the line.
I am budgeting my savings for living during and after an integrated ATPL program at one of the larger UK schools which I am commencing early next year.
Essentially I have budgeted 25,000 GBP for a type rating in addition to a (very restrictive) living budget for three years - 18 months of course and 18 months of "please please please let me have a job" if that is required and I don't want to go back to my old job in the meantime.
what I, and many others seem to be asking on several threads, is
i) which UK and European airlines require a "pay for type rating upfront scheme"
ii) which airlines offer bonded schemes for type ratings
iii) what airlines/ATO's charge - specifically by airline/aircraft if possible; and
iV) which (mythical) airlines pay you from contact signage
obviously I have researched this thorougly on these forums and on other sites however information seems to change with time and source and replies seem to send the threads off on tangents. Many airlines seem to have no information provided at all.
If you have answers to these questions please post them and I'm sure many would be grateful. Also if there is a list or solid thread that I may have missed please direct me (and others) to it. It would also be great if the many keyboard warriors don't weigh in with a constant stream of irrelevant discourse about how horrible the job is, chances of jobs, corrupt establishments etc which seems to be a standard occurrence in threads of this nature.
Thanks in Advance!
I am very new to this and really didn't want to start my own thread being a posting noob but I am stumped on this one. I also understand that while I myself usually belong in the "professional pilot training" forums, this question relates more to interviews and employment down the line.
I am budgeting my savings for living during and after an integrated ATPL program at one of the larger UK schools which I am commencing early next year.
Essentially I have budgeted 25,000 GBP for a type rating in addition to a (very restrictive) living budget for three years - 18 months of course and 18 months of "please please please let me have a job" if that is required and I don't want to go back to my old job in the meantime.
what I, and many others seem to be asking on several threads, is
i) which UK and European airlines require a "pay for type rating upfront scheme"
ii) which airlines offer bonded schemes for type ratings
iii) what airlines/ATO's charge - specifically by airline/aircraft if possible; and
iV) which (mythical) airlines pay you from contact signage
obviously I have researched this thorougly on these forums and on other sites however information seems to change with time and source and replies seem to send the threads off on tangents. Many airlines seem to have no information provided at all.
If you have answers to these questions please post them and I'm sure many would be grateful. Also if there is a list or solid thread that I may have missed please direct me (and others) to it. It would also be great if the many keyboard warriors don't weigh in with a constant stream of irrelevant discourse about how horrible the job is, chances of jobs, corrupt establishments etc which seems to be a standard occurrence in threads of this nature.
Thanks in Advance!
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Ok first of all, let me ask you one question: are you enrolling on a MPL or mentored scheme or is it just a self-sponsored scheme?
In the latter case then I would suggest you just do it the modular way by saving over half of what you are going to pay now for your training. PPL at your local flying club, hour building in North America or around Europe, ATPL theory with a good ATPL provider and then CPL-ME/IR at a very good modular school in the UK or Europe.
And at the end of it you will have plenty of money aside not only for a TR but also for line training if you want to do it – because you might need it.
Give a look at the Wings Alliance program, a graduate of my school got a job through this program at a UK well known charter airline.
In the latter case then I would suggest you just do it the modular way by saving over half of what you are going to pay now for your training. PPL at your local flying club, hour building in North America or around Europe, ATPL theory with a good ATPL provider and then CPL-ME/IR at a very good modular school in the UK or Europe.
And at the end of it you will have plenty of money aside not only for a TR but also for line training if you want to do it – because you might need it.
Give a look at the Wings Alliance program, a graduate of my school got a job through this program at a UK well known charter airline.
Last edited by RedBullGaveMeWings; 15th Dec 2016 at 16:22.
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Hi,
Depending on your training provider, the orange bus TR has been known to be in the region of £30-£40k depending on whether AQC is included or not. Current source to confirm this is CTC's third-party ATP. Hope that helps you!
SOURCE:
Generation easyJet Pilot Training Programme
Depending on your training provider, the orange bus TR has been known to be in the region of £30-£40k depending on whether AQC is included or not. Current source to confirm this is CTC's third-party ATP. Hope that helps you!
SOURCE:
Generation easyJet Pilot Training Programme
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Gbotley, thanks very much. I would have an airline approved MCC/JOC anyway through the school so 30k is the rough sum ill use for Easyjet, thanks for the link.
RedBullGaveMeWings, thanks for the advice (sincerely) but Ive been set on integrated for a while after doing all my research and I think it will work best for me. Thanks again.
RedBullGaveMeWings, thanks for the advice (sincerely) but Ive been set on integrated for a while after doing all my research and I think it will work best for me. Thanks again.
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Surely you've researched all this before signing up to a course costing well in excess of £90,000 
And as you correctly implied, things change at the drop of a hat in this business ... hence why many won't train unless on an airline scheme, you will not be able to predict what the job market will be like in 18 months, this is the very risk you take onto your shoulders by going onto an 'untagged' scheme.
And as you correctly implied, things change at the drop of a hat in this business ... hence why many won't train unless on an airline scheme, you will not be able to predict what the job market will be like in 18 months, this is the very risk you take onto your shoulders by going onto an 'untagged' scheme.
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I agree with Officer Kite, especially in the UK due to Brexit uncertainty nobody knows what to expect. Look at Ryanair, they are not basing any of their new 737's in the UK due to it.
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It would also be great if the many keyboard warriors don't weigh in with a constant stream of irrelevant discourse about how horrible the job is, chances of jobs, corrupt establishments etc which seems to be a standard occurrence in threads of this nature.
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TangoAlphad, thanks very much that was one of the airlines I was looking for, being one that takes quite a few from the schools.
Officer Kite, yes of course I have which is why I have already put aside 25,000 GBP Cash for the type rating which is the commonly referenced price for the orange guys and slightly more than ryanair. Put simply although I have prepared quite well for this (will exit training with zero debt) and its more my obsession with knowing as much as possible. After all, I didn't get where I am only knowing 50 percent of the picture and on these threads most only reference the orange and the flying harp whereas other airlines keep their costs closer to their chests.
RedBullGaveMeWings, yes I understand how much the job market can change. However noting the spread of the job surplus thats only just coming into europe at the moment it would have to be pretty bad. Obviously brexit is an example of a minor upset but even that is recovering quickly (ryanair for example only announced a planned reduction of its growth in the uk, did not stop it and definitely did not reduce their presence while at the same time promising a 100 percent increase in scotland if they abolish APD). Also if you read the terms and conditions of tagged schemes, any event that would stop the almost inevitable aviation skilled labour shortage (as referenced in FLYBE's recent financial review as well as almost every asia pacific and american airline report for the last several years) would be catastrophic (remember the last 10 years problems were a first and only caused by a series of unfortunate events occurring one after another against all odds) and in that case the Tagged schemes would not protect you anymore than being a white tail as the contracts often if not always contain these clauses.
All,
What I am after in this thread is simply information from anyone as to the cost and employment conditions surrounding type ratings of European airlines, especially for airlines not commonly discussed in this forum. I appreciate all advice is well intentioned however with my current qualifications, savings and secure fall back I really dont need any advice about what programs to follow as I have made my decision. I also appreciate that many who cruise this forum are not wannabes but qualified pilots usually trained in the last 13 years, who experienced the worst aviation job shortage in world history, and who feel that it is their duty to spread the "truth" of the situation though it may be different while casting serious doubt (based on your experience which was understandably very frustrating) on the countless financial reports and black and white hiring statistics that are now showing its a great time to be a pilot (and yes after many false starts thanks to some ATO's). I myself completed my PPL and was about to finish my CPL over 8 years ago when I stopped due to the reality of the Job market at that time and my earning potential in my previous area of employment. Rest assured I would not have left my very high paying (yet horrible) job after watching aviation markets for all this time unless I had a very good idea of what the situation was as much as it can be predicted out to three to five years. Again I appreciate that all advice is well intentioned however..
can we go back to the black and white questions posted at the start of this thread
Thanks in advance
Officer Kite, yes of course I have which is why I have already put aside 25,000 GBP Cash for the type rating which is the commonly referenced price for the orange guys and slightly more than ryanair. Put simply although I have prepared quite well for this (will exit training with zero debt) and its more my obsession with knowing as much as possible. After all, I didn't get where I am only knowing 50 percent of the picture and on these threads most only reference the orange and the flying harp whereas other airlines keep their costs closer to their chests.
RedBullGaveMeWings, yes I understand how much the job market can change. However noting the spread of the job surplus thats only just coming into europe at the moment it would have to be pretty bad. Obviously brexit is an example of a minor upset but even that is recovering quickly (ryanair for example only announced a planned reduction of its growth in the uk, did not stop it and definitely did not reduce their presence while at the same time promising a 100 percent increase in scotland if they abolish APD). Also if you read the terms and conditions of tagged schemes, any event that would stop the almost inevitable aviation skilled labour shortage (as referenced in FLYBE's recent financial review as well as almost every asia pacific and american airline report for the last several years) would be catastrophic (remember the last 10 years problems were a first and only caused by a series of unfortunate events occurring one after another against all odds) and in that case the Tagged schemes would not protect you anymore than being a white tail as the contracts often if not always contain these clauses.
All,
What I am after in this thread is simply information from anyone as to the cost and employment conditions surrounding type ratings of European airlines, especially for airlines not commonly discussed in this forum. I appreciate all advice is well intentioned however with my current qualifications, savings and secure fall back I really dont need any advice about what programs to follow as I have made my decision. I also appreciate that many who cruise this forum are not wannabes but qualified pilots usually trained in the last 13 years, who experienced the worst aviation job shortage in world history, and who feel that it is their duty to spread the "truth" of the situation though it may be different while casting serious doubt (based on your experience which was understandably very frustrating) on the countless financial reports and black and white hiring statistics that are now showing its a great time to be a pilot (and yes after many false starts thanks to some ATO's). I myself completed my PPL and was about to finish my CPL over 8 years ago when I stopped due to the reality of the Job market at that time and my earning potential in my previous area of employment. Rest assured I would not have left my very high paying (yet horrible) job after watching aviation markets for all this time unless I had a very good idea of what the situation was as much as it can be predicted out to three to five years. Again I appreciate that all advice is well intentioned however..
can we go back to the black and white questions posted at the start of this thread
Thanks in advance
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Bloated Stomach, How is paying for a type rating with an airline job offer ******* up the industry? Thats been around for donkeys years and is different to Pay to Fly or paying for a white tail type rating which is nothing I would ever consider. Bonding is still paying its just a different payment method, and I know there are lots of airlines which do this but as said above no-one seems to be able to shed any light on what airlines offer what which is what I am asking. As far as I know there is only one euro airline that makes you pay upfront without bond.
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Bonding isn't paying for a type rating unless you're on a reduced salary. There are still airlines out there which bond you and pay you at the industry rate.
However, your reply makes it clear that you've already made your decision.
However, your reply makes it clear that you've already made your decision.
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@Qtr Life Crisis
Just to add some more info, from speaking with current airline pilots I know and chatting with cadets at my school on the tail end of training with offers:
The eventual cost will ultimately depend on which country you're based in and what the legislation and/or contracts of each carrier in that country.
There are still some out there that fund it however, just keep your eyes out for them.
Hope this helps.
Just to add some more info, from speaking with current airline pilots I know and chatting with cadets at my school on the tail end of training with offers:
- FlyBe offered a bonded TR repaid from salary.
- AirTanker offered free TR.
- Norwegian expected part or full payment in the region of €20-25k.
- easyJet UK £30-40k but have been known to underwrite the finance in the past.
- Ryanair €29,500
- Thomson/Thomas Cook (can't remember which) offered part-payment but I had this conversation quite some time ago so i'm not sure on the amount.
The eventual cost will ultimately depend on which country you're based in and what the legislation and/or contracts of each carrier in that country.
There are still some out there that fund it however, just keep your eyes out for them.
Hope this helps.
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Bloated Stomach, Ive hardly made my decision about type ratings as I am in no way in the position to make any decision for another couple of years. I am simply putting some money aside for the all too realistic eventuality. I am, as stated above, looking for information about the cost of type ratings with airlines that use that method AS WELL as other airlines entry schemes. I just wanted an explanation of why type ratings are messing up the industry in your opinion. Im curious because although I have seen a lot of anger towards pay to fly (rightly so!), other than just general disappointment I have never seen the same anger towards type rating schemes that you have expressed. To me, with my research to date, airline sponsored type ratings are in the same bucket as airline sponsored training (used to be a thing, should be a thing, very few airlines offer it and don't count on ever getting it). If you know of the airlines you mention that offer fully paid schemes please post them (and dont just say BA), but the fact remains that the majority of British airlines that a fresh faced frozen ATPL grad can expect to work for seem to require some payment or airline loan for type rating education and I dont think thats going to change any time soon and I think its quite unfair to say that anyone who is doing what they need to get a job within the accepted scope of practise is ****** up the industry.
Also might be a country of origin difference in our english but a bond vs a contract lock in is a big difference in my world. My understanding is that a bond in aviation commonly refers to a loan given to you by the airline that may or may not (often may) be paid back from salary but will held regardless until a certain time is completed and if you leave you pay it, as Gbotley has referred to above. A lock in contract is where you are given a qualification and if you breach your contract you will be liable not only for the qualification cost but also breach damages etc. So apologies if there was any confusion.
Also might be a country of origin difference in our english but a bond vs a contract lock in is a big difference in my world. My understanding is that a bond in aviation commonly refers to a loan given to you by the airline that may or may not (often may) be paid back from salary but will held regardless until a certain time is completed and if you leave you pay it, as Gbotley has referred to above. A lock in contract is where you are given a qualification and if you breach your contract you will be liable not only for the qualification cost but also breach damages etc. So apologies if there was any confusion.
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Council Van,
Point well taken about the negatives of paid type ratings. I also have a family to support and that is the essence of my financial preparation.
When the day comes (still, as I have said, a long long long way off) of course I will be looking for the option that does not require the paid type rating. But for me, as always, I am going to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. If jobs are thin on the ground (which of course they almost always are) then I will do whatever it takes to obtain a job. Based on a few encouraging think tank reports recently (which I read a few nights ago and I will try and find again and share) the airlines 20 year hiatus on accepting financial risk for pilot training might be coming to an end and hopefully in a few years everything will be very different.
Thanks for the info about the airlines you have worked for.
Point well taken about the negatives of paid type ratings. I also have a family to support and that is the essence of my financial preparation.
When the day comes (still, as I have said, a long long long way off) of course I will be looking for the option that does not require the paid type rating. But for me, as always, I am going to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. If jobs are thin on the ground (which of course they almost always are) then I will do whatever it takes to obtain a job. Based on a few encouraging think tank reports recently (which I read a few nights ago and I will try and find again and share) the airlines 20 year hiatus on accepting financial risk for pilot training might be coming to an end and hopefully in a few years everything will be very different.
Thanks for the info about the airlines you have worked for.
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Looking for those reports, Im sure many of you have read this but the Flybe half yearly report (including independent firm review) is available on their website under the reports for investors section and is one of the first European airlines to formally reference the pilot shortage in a real-time sense (as opposed to a future concern)
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I note that the OP appears to have done his home work and be well prepared, a good trait in a pilot.
I wish I had a job that allowed me to provide for my family and be able to allow me to save the amount of money he appears to have.
One piece of advice I would give. Do not cut of your ties with your current profession, as I mentioned above having been made redundant without another career to fall back on is a nasty place to be.
I wish I had a job that allowed me to provide for my family and be able to allow me to save the amount of money he appears to have.
One piece of advice I would give. Do not cut of your ties with your current profession, as I mentioned above having been made redundant without another career to fall back on is a nasty place to be.
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Council Van, Dont get me wrong, Im not rolling in it. Ive just worked towards this for ten years without a break (as in the record was 846 days without a single day off - inc weekends), destroyed my first marriage and mainly worked in not so nice places full of not so nice people who are usually referenced on the 6 o'clock news -- so be carful what you wish for
I made the decision when I was young to put off the dream of becoming a pilot and I have been saving every day since. Thats why I am asking a million questions about 25 grand because for me its not a loan or a few years of debt its the culmination of a plan that cost a fair bit (in a few senses)
Im still required to maintain contact with my old job its a contract requirement for at least 5 years so I have the option of going back any time but I don't think ill be doing that in a hurry. Thanks for the advice.
Are you working towards another job at the moment?
I made the decision when I was young to put off the dream of becoming a pilot and I have been saving every day since. Thats why I am asking a million questions about 25 grand because for me its not a loan or a few years of debt its the culmination of a plan that cost a fair bit (in a few senses)
Im still required to maintain contact with my old job its a contract requirement for at least 5 years so I have the option of going back any time but I don't think ill be doing that in a hurry. Thanks for the advice.
Are you working towards another job at the moment?
Norwegian TR - €22000 + accommodation costs but €100 day expenses.
Touch and go out of pocket expenses covered.
Starting salary for FO - €3300 + per diem PM. Increase at 750 hrs.
Despite negative posts on here, Norwegian aren't so bad.
Touch and go out of pocket expenses covered.
Starting salary for FO - €3300 + per diem PM. Increase at 750 hrs.
Despite negative posts on here, Norwegian aren't so bad.
Last edited by annakm; 18th Dec 2016 at 23:19. Reason: Typo
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annakm, thanks heaps thats exactly the type of info I wanted.
Ive actually only ever heard good things about them (both companies Norwegian) but I know the international section is having rows with the unions over the long haul so maybe thats why.
Cheers.
Ive actually only ever heard good things about them (both companies Norwegian) but I know the international section is having rows with the unions over the long haul so maybe thats why.
Cheers.
