Virgin MPL 2017

[beatrix]

I can't see an upper age limit anywhere - I'm assuming because of the laws surrounding advertising of jobs with upper age limits - So what, theoretically, is the upper limit?

Not that it will sway me from applying - that's for Mrs Beatrix to try!

Mind you, trying to finance a mortgage and two children through 2 years of training might be the final nail in the coffin - pity they didn't offer these when I was single and lived with the parents!

[JordanCoyle]

No age limit, its been known for people in late 30's to apply.

[stupotk]

There is an official upper age limit of 55, due to airline pilot's having to retire at 65.
I personally wouldn't want to state a theoretical upper limit - if you have got what it takes then age shouldn't matter!

[andy148]

Well i've applied and I'm 37, lets see if how it goes?

Due to labour law it's illegal to discriminate against peoples age, how ever what happens behind closed doors....

[beatrix]

Me too andy148..

Us oldies should stick together ;-)

Something else I've not seen anyone else pose is what happens should VS decide to lay-off pilots in 5 years time due to whatever downturn happens (USA self-destructs after 4 years of Trump or Clinton for example) and the cadets are the first to go.. who pays for the loan? I guess it'll be the cadet, but if the cadet is bonded to Virgin, do they pay?

Cheers all

[Officer Kite]

Personally the finances don't put me off. The only thing putting me off is that only in year 9 do you get the contract that a year 1 D/E FO would get. Maybe it's just me but that really stood out to me as something to be considered if you are able to secure funding for easyjet for example, you may well be a captain for them in that time. Whereas you would only be given the contract of a year 1 FO in Virgin. Serious considerations are required if you can afford other options.

I say "if", because if you're not able to then obviously it would be silly to not apply over that.

[aearose]

Hi All,
I posted some questions on the CTC FB page about Cadet Salary, and got this response.


[I]“ provided you complete the training to the required standard, you'll join Virgin on a cadet salary of c.£25,000 p/a basic, plus the return of your bond, which will be an additional c.£12,000 each year. Furthermore, this bond amount is not subject to government deductions. Your salary will increase each year and then you will being to receive a First Officer Salary by year 9 of employment which is c.£60,000 p/a basic.


I looked at the link provided for the loan, and it states an Interest rate of 4.99%. Which works out at £1254 per month, £15058 a year. This is £3058 short of the Bond repayment. Is this right?

[aearose]

Can anyone confirm the time spent outside of the UK?
I am sure in the Virgin presentation at CTC, it stated 11 weeks, because you don't fly multi engine?
However CTC have told me 22weeks?
The brochure from CTC says 22weeks (NZ & UK)

[stupotk]

Originally Posted by aearose

I looked at the link provided for the loan, and it states an Interest rate of 4.99%. Which works out at £1254 per month, £15058 a year. This is £3058 short of the Bond repayment. Is this right?

The £109,000 bond gets paid back over 9 years, this is taxed at a low rate so you can expect approximately £108,000 back - this is how they have calculated the £12,000 per year/£1,000 per month.

Paying back your loan of £109,000 (plus considerable interest) you are inevitably going to be paying more back on the loan than you are receiving through the security bond each month. Hopefully that makes sense!

[Cessnaflyer87]

Re Funding

Guys,

Just for clarification regarding funding and the guarantor position.

If Virgin were to guarantee the loan, thats all they would be doing. It would fall on you to repay the loan regardless of your employment status. The only eventuality where Virgin would have to step in is if you were to have to declare yourself bankrupt. That is not a position you want to be in, especially if you own any property.

With regards to the funding - be wary! The finance ATPL finance offer is 2.99% + Standard Trusts reference rate of 2% (total 4.99% currently).You have no control of this referance rate and purely relates to their cost of capital to lend you the money.

BBVA currently lends at 3% plus base rate which is currently 0.25% (total 3.25%) with base rate looking low for a long time it could be potentially cheaper whilst your loan capital is high during your first few years. However it was announced today that in the coming years it may start to rise as inflation does.

Make sure you look into the funding carefully. If Standard trusts cost to capital ratio increases you can be sure that your "all in rate" will increase aswell (and im not sure how they propose their 2% rate).
If base rate rises you will be hit by the increase cost- especially if this happens when the capital element of you loan is so high in the initial years.

I work in banking and ran a few models (base rate models) and these are only rough indications and do not take into account potential increases to base nor the fact the loan will be drawn down in tranches (i.e my assumption is that all 109K is drawn from day one). m

at 109K borrowing over 9 years at the current rate (3.25) you would pay 1,165 per month with a total cost to you of £125802.19 over the 108 months of repayment.

The same for standard trust would be £1253.39 per month with a total cost over 108 Months £135,366.89

These are only indicative figures and will move dependant on how much you borrow and the rates obtained by yourself.

[Bealzebub]

The loan is guaranteed against Virgin, not you or your parent's house for example, so they will be liable for it, not you. That's one of the benefits of this scheme, they take the hit should it all go belly up.

As the poster above has cautioned, that is not correct. A guarantor provides a joint and several guarantee for a loan should a primary borrower default. It most certainly does not alleviate the primary borrower of liability in the event they default. If the guarantor should go "belly up" then the lender would seek to recover from the primary borrower in the event they defaulted, as well as from any realisable assets from the guarantor. You would not be alleviated in any way by the guarantors inability to pay as the loan would be joint and several. Certainly your parents (unless they were also guarantors) would have no financial interest in the liability for the loan, but you most certainly would.

You should also be aware that even though you may have provided no tangible security for the loan, that wouldn't necessarily prevent the lender from seeking recovery by way of such instruments as "charging orders" if they had unsatisfied court orders and you had realisable assets even if the loan was unsecured, which in this case is unlikely.

That isn't to say this is anything other than a good source of funding for such an expensive endeavour, but go into these things with a properly researched toolkit, rather than advice from the "you are off the hook" merchants. There is always risk attached and that needs to be balanced with a fall back provision commensurate with that risk.

[aearose]

@Cessnaflyer87
thanks for the info

[beatrix]

Consider this before worrying about only being on D/E FO salary in year 9.. I have worked in my "chosen" (read fell into) career for 15 years. For the last 10 I have been on a stagnant salary - and I mean completely stagnant. I earn exactly the same now as I did 10 years ago, and it's not even half of the year nine D/E FO salary - and unless I move jobs and location there's no chance of it increasing either!

In fact, the starting salary for cadet in howevermanymonthsitis is pretty much what I'm on now. And for an 18/19/20 year old it's a great salary!

Salary isn't everything... it's a lot, granted, but not everything - and what's awful for one could be life-changing for another!

[Officer Kite]

Salary isn't everything... it's a lot, granted, but not everything - and what's awful for one could be life-changing for another!

I totally agree. Though whilst I think I did mention it, the salary wasn't the core point. I was more looking at how you will most likely be a captain in certain other airlines by the time you're only given the contract of a year 1 FO in virgin.

I think if other options are possible there is certainly better out there.

[MaverickPrime]

Originally Posted by Officer Kite

The only thing putting me off is that only in year 9 do you get the contract that a year 1 D/E FO would get. Maybe it's just me but that really stood out to me as something to be considered if you are able to secure funding for easyjet for example, you may well be a captain for them in that time. Whereas you would only be given the contract of a year 1 FO in Virgin. Serious considerations are required if you can afford other options.

You've highlighted a point that everyone applying for the Virgin MPL needs to consider.

There are many pilots out there who have trained for a lot less than £109k. They got their first jobs in the likes of Ryanair, Flybe, Easyjet etc. With three or fours years experience at the aforementioned airlines, these guys have been able to join Virgin, BA, Emirates etc on the full pay scale.

If you sign up to the cadet scheme you will be on reduced pay for nine years. Hypothetically, someone else could train modular, join Ryanair and three years later use their experience to get a job at Virgin or BA on £70k/yr and they would be ahead of you by a few years in terms of pay. It has happened!!!

What if you loose your medical and therefore can't fly as a pilot? - you still have to pay back all that money, and don't say you have Loss Of Licence cover, because it doesn't always payout!

No matter what way you choose to go you will take on significant risks, but you need to be sure about the decision that you take and its implications on your life for the next ten years.

Im not trying to write this scheme off. It may workout very well for some people. Just don't view it as a silver bullet solution!

[stupotk]

I agree with all the above, I guess it's swings and roundabouts! It also depends on personal circumstances whether this is an appropriate route.

For me, this is the only way to access the funding and I am not in any huge rush to get in the left seat - of course I want to get there but I have time on my side. Another thing to remember is, if successful, you are starting on long haul which is often the end goal for airline pilots.

(I say 'often' - this is a massive generalisation based on no fact at all, just an impression!)

[stupotk]

Something I have been wondering... I know that rostering is done on a priority basis depending on length of service.

Would a direct entry First Officer be automatically higher on that priority list than a cadet who is in their 7th year with the company?

[Officer Kite]

you are starting on long haul which is often the end goal for airline pilots.

I say 'often' - this is a massive generalisation based on no fact at all, just an impression!

I was also once under that impression. However since I've started working for an airline, speaking to many pilots, I've come to realise it most certainly isn't the end goal for most people at all. "Over rated" is something I've heard said about it by ex long haul pilots many times. Many pilots just have no interest in it whatsoever. Not realising the value of one's own bed until flying long haul is also something many say.

Now having said that, I'm certain for many people long haul is da bomb.

It really is a case of each to their own and I don't think you can quite tell whether you'll enjoy it until you actually do it, could be wrong though.

It wouldn't be something that would affect whether or not I apply for virgin though ... 9 yrs to get a DE year 1 FO contract is certainly a more serious issue.

[MaverickPrime]

Originally Posted by stupotk

Something I have been wondering... I know that rostering is done on a priority basis depending on length of service.

Would a direct entry First Officer be automatically higher on that priority list than a cadet who is in their 7th year with the company?

No, seniority shouldn't be affected because you joined as a cadet. A DEFO who joined after you should be lower in seniority. Alas, I don't work for Virgin and don't know how they will work it, but would be very surprised if your seniority as a cadet was also penalised.

[stupotk]

Originally Posted by Officer Kite

I was also once under that impression. However since I've started working for an airline, speaking to many pilots, I've come to realise it most certainly isn't the end goal for most people at all.

That's very interesting to read - and also quite refreshing! To be honest, whether I flew on short or long haul doesn't matter to me - as long as I am flying I am happy!

Thanks for your comments, its definitely changed my mindset.

Having said that... at this moment in time, the Virgin MPL is my only option at the moment!