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CTC wings Qatar MPL

Old 10th Nov 2015, 17:33
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CTC wings Qatar MPL

I would like to join the Qatar cadet programme but I don't know wether I will get accepted or not.

I'm currently living in Belgium and have the Belgian nationality and wonder if I would get a loan to finance the study?

And they require to hold a minimum of 5 GCSEs (or equivalent) Grade C or above, including maths, science and English language.

In Belgium we don't have the ABCD grading system. As well I'm doing IT and have maths 3h per week, natural science 1h per week and English 2h per week. Would that be enough or does that require me to go to college and do GCSE's?

Any further information would be welcome!

Thanks!
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Old 17th Nov 2015, 11:14
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Hello,

sorry I can't participate anything on this issue. But I would like to support your question, I'm also wondering about funding options and loans.

How can you guys all afford to go for a 109,000 GBP program?
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Old 18th Nov 2015, 20:23
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Well the second option is also requiring quite a lot. I'm sure not many twenty-somethings have a property or other want to involve their family.

Means, these programs are not really suited without a very strong financial background?
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Old 10th Dec 2015, 23:20
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Hi there,

I'm one of those going for the loan with BBVA. I will be applying for a loan with the security being my parents' property...however I have studied it carefully and the truth is there isn't much risk in it for my parents. There are a lot of insurances you will need before you can even take the loan out (all of which will cover the cost of the loan should the worst occur) so it is very unlikely that your parents would have to hand over their house if for whatever reason you were to stop the course (if that's what you're worried about). I have let my parents review the loan as well and they seem happy that it isn't a big risk. I should mention I am not from a wealthy family

But the idea is that when you have completed the course you will have a job and SHOULD be able to start paying it back...but I don't know what the situation is currently like in QR atm...I keep getting mixed reviews, some very good others not so good!
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Old 11th Dec 2015, 12:26
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Can anyone expand on how much interest per month is on the loan with BBVA if approved? Interest on a loan of that magnitude would surely add up....also, since CTC is a full time program it would be very hard to work to pay off some payments during the program and im sure they'd be monthly payments unlike a school loan. Thanks
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Old 12th Dec 2015, 15:16
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Hi Striker,

1. On their website they state the interest rate is 3.0% plus the standard bank of England base rate (currently 0.5%). Therefore interest per annum, I believe, is 3.5%. They do state this, however: "The actual rate available will depend upon your circumstances. Ask for a personalised illustration."

2. BBVA specialise in pilot loans and understand the nature of the full time course. Therefore, they offer a 2 year payment holiday where nothing needs to be paid back, however interest still accumulates over these two years.

Monthly repayments start after the 2 year payment holiday but for the first two years after this payment holiday, your repayments are at a 25% reduced rate. After these 2 years (4 years after you've taken the loan) the monthly repayments continue at a normal rate.

here's a link to the details on their website if you need more info Hope that helps.

https://www.bbvauk.com/personal-bank...-mortgages.jsp
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Old 12th Dec 2015, 23:58
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Striker...

I would just like to add to EZYDan's post...

Even though I have not started my course yet, from what I have read, heard and been told you would not really have any time for a part-time job if you were to embark upon a CTC MPL or ATPL course. I believe that they are quite intensive, certainly at least for the first 6 months of the course which is ATPL Theory and exams / ground school (although many pilots say that it is not intensive...maybe a matter of opinion). I have also been told from someone who recently started on their course something about there being a clause in the agreement with CTC that you agree that you won't get another job for the main reason that you should be focusing on your work with them. But don't quote me on that.

Also if you're wondering, 3.0% above base rate is actually very good, well in the UK at least, and considering it is not a "concrete" loan, meaning there is no fixed, valued object to guarantee repayments of this magnitude (e.g. a property) it makes it even better. However bear in mind what EZYDan said...it could change depending on your personal circumstances
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 12:53
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Hey guys thanks for both your replies and very insightful info! i actually spoke to CTC and BBVA over the weekend, both stated the interests rates you guys stated and the 2 year repayment holiday. What really sucks for me and so many people is that my collateral (property) is in Canada and not the UK which is a requirement for that loan. I think for UK nationals its great deal, sure there's interest but you're guaranteed a spot on a major airline that compared to other airlines pays well, so the net benefit would definitely be positive.

For those living in North America the program costs 225k CDN very hefty and no bank here would ever grant a loan close to that amount...
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 17:07
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One thing to keep in mind with these loans is that they are variable, based on 3% over the BoE base rate. For a loan taken out next year, maturing in 2026, it would *not* be safe to assume the base rate will stay at 0.5% for that whole time because it has been at an historic low. This site shows the rates since 1975:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/iadb/repo.asp
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/iadb/repo.asp

The average over that period is 9.6% (!) and it peaked at 17% in 1979. I’m not saying it is likely to go that high any time soon, but over the ten year loan period it could certainly get back to 3-5% or more (+ the 3% margin).

That would increase the monthly payments quoted in the BBVA example by ~10-20%, as well as the total interest paid. Probably still manageable but you want to sign on the dotted line with your eyes open to avoid a surprise later on (in the form of a rate increase notification from the bank, just after you purchased the Brietling and the Aston ;-).
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 17:48
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Stratopause - good point from a financial point of view. Im sure this is the only reason BBVA created this partnership amongst the other banks! This is how they make money

Over here, the bank won't loan you more than 40k, and that's with good income and no credit debt! I really hope though in the future these airlines realize they'll need quality over quantity and they create programs like this to nurture their own potential cadets into their airline for a long time to come.

its only a matter of time
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 20:19
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Stratopause is right, I think the rate could be variable but I am waiting until I see the loan contract before I comment any further on that.

Striker...I have a friend who got through with me to the MPL and he's from Canada also taking out the BBVA loan. So there is a way around not having a property in the UK (I think) but I am not sure exactly what it is. I think he said he managed to get a mock contract from CTC to show the bank but this may only be applicable on the MPL courses. But yeah I'm afraid I'm not 100% sure on that one
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 20:30
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I can’t really fault BBVA because I think they are pursuing a business opportunity which makes sense for them and it is a service people need. Punters just need to understand where the interest rate risk is carried and what that could mean for them down the line. If the MPL continues to spread, they might want to think about expanding the guarantee options beyond the U.K. too!

Are any of the Canadian carriers offering an MPL type scheme, or thinking about it do you know? As the ICAO hosts they often keep closely aligned, unlike the U.S., where the 1,500 hr rule put paid to any hope of that. The only good thing about that rule is that it has created a temporary shortage in the labour market for the entry level regional airlines. But rather than increase F/O salaries beyond the poverty line, they are offering one-off hiring bonuses instead. That way, once the shortage is overcome, they won’t keep having to pay a reasonable wage.
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 04:35
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Yea for BBVA it's a great business venture. ...here in Canada the fleets of our major airlines Air Canada, Westjet, Air Transat, Sunwing and Porter are relatively small compared to the States, UK and ME. Here the pipeline is pretty smooth - 60k cdn will get you to 200 hrs with instructor rating, do that for a bit and get on a small regional operator usually operating dash's, king air's and beechcrafts. From then you can write your frozen atpl at 750 hrs and hope at this point your flying multi engine. Most regionals actually won't even bother with you below 500 so you may be an instructor for a while. Around 1500 you'll be able to apply to westjet, jazz and porters q400s ...so all in all it takes approx 5+ years to even get a taste of a q400... airbus or embraer if you're lucky. ...

Here you'll get to the majors eventually but honestly having lived here my entire life. ..inflation has really taken over. ...the jobs just don't pay well enough like in the UK or ME majors after tax to save anything..I'm not saying other countries are heaven...but my family bsckground is from the ME so qatar wouldve been nice because idm going there at all.

One of my good friends is a Westjet 737 FO going on Capt soon he advised me its a slow process but Canada is in no hurry to endorse accelerated cadet programs......Air Georgian tried that a few years ago...shut down the program after one year lol...too many applicants for so little positions.

I have seen airlines open up live resume profiles where you can update your logbook and when you have the hours they'll give you a shout....Porter started this...young pilot program but you're basically sharing your logbook with them until you get close to 1500hrs...more of a HR tactic lol


For me i don't want to wait 10+years to fly a 777...im not saying i will but potential here is weak. Think about it this way. ..our only long haul operator aside from a few vacation airlines is AC...they've invested in 787 abd 777 but the same pilot told me the pipeline is very small upgrades are slow and pay is only good enough not great. We only have 35 million people here...that's the same population as a few States....our busiest airport Pearson, has a combined inbound outbound flights per day at around 1000 flights. ...peanuts compared to lhr jfk or dxb

Sorry fot my long post and I'm way off topic for this thread but i know it'll help ppl out there. .


And honestly to all those who applied best of luck to you guys ...we'll keep trying maybe there's a way. ..never give up!
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 14:03
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@striker26 - OK, thanks. Sounds like the Canadian system is very similar to the U.S. prior to the 1,500 hr rule (which now means you need 1500 to even get to the regionals, which used to be around 500-750). On the loan security, if they like you as a candidate there may be ways around it as devvo suggested above. Good luck!
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Old 19th Sep 2016, 22:40
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Please read if you are considering the qatar airways mpl programme:

Please read if you are considering the qatar airways mpl programme:
You are being issued with a QCAA MPL not an EASA MPL.

I started with CTC Aviation’s Qatar Airways MPL program in January 2016 and was in Hamilton, NZ to do my ground school and flight training. A few months in we were told that if, after our initial time at Qatar, we wanted to return to Europe then we’d need to redo all 14 ATPL exams as well as obtain a CPL because the license we get issued is a Qatari one, not an EASA license (even though we were doing EASA theory exams).

Fortunately a couple weeks later the Head of Training (UK) came out to NZ to view the facilities and hold a Q&A session. I asked him about the license issue and he said point blank that this is true.

If you want to come back to Europe then you will have to redo ALL 14 ATPL exams and obtain a CPL.

He explained that this was because the validity of your EASA examinations is only 3 years and our initial time with Qatar Airways is longer than this.
We had 3 stages of assessment to get onto the course and at no point was this mentioned, and not only that but none of the other Qatar Courses knew about this. We spoke to people who had finished their time in NZ and were returning to the UK to start their sim training, they didn’t know about it. No one on my course knew about it and we had two new courses started whilst I was out there, and they were coming up to us because they didn’t know about this.

CTC have not told any cadets about the license issue.

I consulted with the CAA who confirmed to me there is also no conversion in place at present to convert from a QCAA License to an EASA License
One particularly interesting point was that whilst I was in NZ, applications for the Qatar MPL opened twice. I decided to look on the CTC page about the Qatar Course. The first time, around June 2016, under the “what’s included” subsection it stated: “EASA MPL License Issue” the second opening, around July 2016 this had been changed to “QCAA MPL License Issue”.
CTC had been advertising the course as an EASA MPL license issue.
I have screenshots of both these pages if anyone would like to see.

To conclude:

You will be issued with a QCAA MPL, this is NOT valid in Europe and there is not conversion course at present. Think long and hard about applying for this course. Unless you are willing to redo your 14 ATPL exams and obtain a CPL your entire flying career will be in Qatar. You may love it there but if you don’t, you are extremely limited in where you can go (I’ve also heard that Emirates and Qatar have a no poaching policy). I wanted to highlight this to people because neither I nor anyone else on any Qatar Course knew about this. You need to make an informed decision and cannot do that without all the information.

The best advice would be to obtain an EASA License and then after an initial stint at a European Carrier move out there, because all you have to do is a sim check every 6 months to keep your license current.

Any questions, please feel free to ask
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Old 20th Sep 2016, 14:21
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Midlandpilot - thanks for sharing that i think it is a very important bit of info. Those wishing to apply, like discussed time and time again - ensure you make a proactive, willing, and judgmental decision. You will live in Qatar for a long time, and as Midland stated, there are factors among many, you need consider. The first one being a mindset of working for QR for a long time and living in Doha for a long time. Do not apply if your end goal is to get QR experience and then come back to Europe quickly or wherever.

Midland can you elaborate on what happens at 1500? Do you ask QR for permission to write ATPL's/CPL issue? I am assuming MPL pilots would need time off to review/write the exams and they would use their own time off?

I am only asking this question because unless years down the road you want to be glued to the a320, we'd need the ATPL to move across the QR fleet even.
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Old 22nd Sep 2016, 12:05
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Hi Striker26,

in all honesty, I can't give you a definitive answer because I don't know. The Qatar MPL is so new that people aren't at that stage yet or are just achieving their 1500 hours.

From the information I could get, you'd have to redo the theory exams via distance learning and to achieve your CPL, I had it suggested to me that you come back to the UK for 3 weeks or so as a 'holiday' and do it then. It's highly unlikely QR would give someone the time off to redo their exams/CPL so they could move away from them.

As far as changing type, i've heard that it's fairly easy to transfer across the QR fleet. I've heard some people did it within 3 years so in that respect it's fairly good.

I'm still asking around to get as much information as I can so anything else I learn i'll post on here.
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Old 22nd Sep 2016, 12:26
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If it said "EASA MPL" then you have a good case for being intentionally mislead. I cannot accept that no one in the organisation knew about this issue prior to the course commencing.
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Old 22nd Sep 2016, 13:32
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I'm somewhat confused by the information posted here about people not knowing about the QCAA license. I applied for this scheme back in October 2013 and went to assessment in Dibden, I have records in my email of having spoken to a member of the CTC selection team, and the fact it was a QCAA MPL was definitely mentioned. I'm surprised how those actually on the course had no such knowledge.

I admit, it was me who brought it up with them and then they replied in the affirmative that it was true ... though I actually read it here that it was a QCAA MPL if memory serves me right. Very bizarre ...
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Old 22nd Sep 2016, 13:53
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Well, another thing everyone can look into is when you do get accepted, the forms/contract you sign off on should state something along the lines of "QCAA MPL", if ppl were mislead about it being EASA, the only way to prove it would be in writing/what you signed off on.

On the note of ATPL distance learning/CPL, one would be crazy not to pursue that as not doing it limits you to one airline. So everyone should also bear in mind the time off required to do this at your own expense/time.
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