UK Nationals being discriminated against?
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First of all, as somebody has already pointed out, that is no discrimination, I need German to work in Germany just like you Brits. Time for you to learn a second language, just like everybody else in Europe.
Equal Opportunity in the UK?
easyJet perhaps. Do you really want to talk about Equal Opportunity in BA? Or even CityFlyer? Or Virgin? Equal Opportunity as long as you get a British passport.
Btw, in the ME they just need pilots, like easyJet and Ryanair in Europe. If they put Arabic among the requirements nobody would fly those aircrafts. They are not reasonable, they are forced to do so.
Equal Opportunity in the UK?
easyJet perhaps. Do you really want to talk about Equal Opportunity in BA? Or even CityFlyer? Or Virgin? Equal Opportunity as long as you get a British passport. Btw, in the ME they just need pilots, like easyJet and Ryanair in Europe. If they put Arabic among the requirements nobody would fly those aircrafts. They are not reasonable, they are forced to do so.
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No
B77L
You've missed the point old chap.
The point is that all pilots speak English. Of varying degrees of proficiency. But English nevertheless.
That is the point. That puts us Brits at a disadvantage.
Do you want me learn Hungarian as well?
I would need to speak several languages (fluently) before I could apply to European airlines, who unashamedly favour their own nationals, despite being part of the EU.
That does make sense?
You've missed the point old chap.
The point is that all pilots speak English. Of varying degrees of proficiency. But English nevertheless.
That is the point. That puts us Brits at a disadvantage.
Do you want me learn Hungarian as well?
I would need to speak several languages (fluently) before I could apply to European airlines, who unashamedly favour their own nationals, despite being part of the EU.
That does make sense?
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Hi Covec
Sorry to hear that you lost out to a great dane, their type rating and skippers experience probably more than made up for the fact that English was not their first language. Though no-one owes any of us a job, it must have been hugely frustrating to lose out at such a late stage.
Like you, I served in the military though I only completed 22 years, I was not aircrew (engineer), I served in the Fleet Air Arm rather than the RAF and the only honours I ever got were the standard chest full of campaign medals, long(ish) service and good(ish) conduct and jubilee medals etc.
Do you have a decent network of serving and ex aircrew who can help you out with information on future opportunities?
I wish you well in your continued search and genuinely hope that you find what you are looking for.
Sorry to hear that you lost out to a great dane, their type rating and skippers experience probably more than made up for the fact that English was not their first language. Though no-one owes any of us a job, it must have been hugely frustrating to lose out at such a late stage.
Like you, I served in the military though I only completed 22 years, I was not aircrew (engineer), I served in the Fleet Air Arm rather than the RAF and the only honours I ever got were the standard chest full of campaign medals, long(ish) service and good(ish) conduct and jubilee medals etc.
Do you have a decent network of serving and ex aircrew who can help you out with information on future opportunities?
I wish you well in your continued search and genuinely hope that you find what you are looking for.
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English people are too lazy with languages and this post is just a reflection of that!!!! Please start to realize that all the other pilots around have had to make an effort once to learn english!!!!
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It does make sense, as it does with BA and Virgin. I'm Italian and still need German to work in Germany, Dutch in the NL, Spanish in Spain, and so on. So a foreigner working for BA (somewhen in the future...maybe) must speak English, a foreigner working for Lufthansa must not speak German. Let me remind you, though, that as far as I know no foreigner has succeeded in getting a place in the BA FPP, or in the CityFlyer scheme, or in Virgin MPL, am I right? So, you see, either discrimination or nationals protection works for you just like for mainland Europe.
P.S. You don't need to speak several languages, you could choose one in order to get more chances and even open your mind. What you've said, to be honest and with no offense, is childish.
P.S. You don't need to speak several languages, you could choose one in order to get more chances and even open your mind. What you've said, to be honest and with no offense, is childish.
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EC DKN you talk nonsense. Whether we like it or not discrimination is alive and well within the European aviation fraternity. As has already been said here, if you could speak every European language you just try getting a job with Air France if you are English, you try and get a job with any national carrier, it is virtually impossible. I wonder that the percentage of non-nationals is within every national carrier in Europe? 1% in Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, TAP etc? I bet it's up near 40% within BA. Infact it's so rife in UK airlines that I am actually surprised when I hear an English accent.
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I can understand the sentiments of covec there does seem to be a massive door slammed in an english speaking only persons face if they do not have another language to icao level 4 equivalent for a non uk european carrier.
To be honest it would be far wiser for an airline to be sensible and invite people whether the person knows the language of the carrier i.e. German or French and ask the pilot if on the offer of a job would they be willing to learn the language of the country in their own time. I am sure most would jump at the chance this should be the win win scenario.
As for English currently used this goes all the way back to ICAO and the decision was made at that and pointless to discuss it. There are countries which do not bother with this such as China where plenty of chat with ATC is in the native language and to be frank if they are talking level 4 English we might as well all give up.
I have heard of ways people manipulate a system floor to make it look like they have level 4 english at a good standard and reality is they cannot converse properly. I have personally met someone from a European nation during a training course and to be honest I spent more time trying to confirm what was been said.
As for discrimination I have never seen an industry which is riddled with so many undercover forms of discrimination with Eastern European carriers preferring not to take Western Europeans .... Also there seems to be a ridiculous impression that people over 40 are finished and not worthy of an interview... then comes the discrimination due to the sex of a person ...
No common sense is been used by airlines
To be honest it would be far wiser for an airline to be sensible and invite people whether the person knows the language of the carrier i.e. German or French and ask the pilot if on the offer of a job would they be willing to learn the language of the country in their own time. I am sure most would jump at the chance this should be the win win scenario.
As for English currently used this goes all the way back to ICAO and the decision was made at that and pointless to discuss it. There are countries which do not bother with this such as China where plenty of chat with ATC is in the native language and to be frank if they are talking level 4 English we might as well all give up.
I have heard of ways people manipulate a system floor to make it look like they have level 4 english at a good standard and reality is they cannot converse properly. I have personally met someone from a European nation during a training course and to be honest I spent more time trying to confirm what was been said.
As for discrimination I have never seen an industry which is riddled with so many undercover forms of discrimination with Eastern European carriers preferring not to take Western Europeans .... Also there seems to be a ridiculous impression that people over 40 are finished and not worthy of an interview... then comes the discrimination due to the sex of a person ...
No common sense is been used by airlines
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"as far as I know no foreigner has succeeded in getting a place in the BA FPP"
I'm not sure about FPP but the old CEP scheme at BA had non-UK citizens on it. One I recall was a Danish young lady who made it clear that BA was her second choice and she would be jumping ship to DLH as soon as she could.
There are so many Dutchies at BA that I'm surprised there is not a requirement for non-Dutch crew to learn it (makes the conversational parts of long sectors more socially productive). One of the reasons for this is the relationship (not simultaneously) between the two big ATO's in the UK and an NL based 'virtual' training provider. I'm certain that courses through this provider are available to non-Dutch (I think they must be) however, I'm not aware of any that have got through selection if any have applied. Same for the other Dutch schools. It's an interesting dynamic - and one I think is probably lost on the British students who don't appreciate they are all competing for the same jobs but actually, may be disadvantaged in favour of non-UK graduates when applying for BA/EZY/RYR because of this 'arrangement'.
If you want an example of how the British have been treated within the EU, look at how KLMuk pilots seniority was acknowledged by the parent company when the airline was joined with KLC.
The basic truth is that if you are an EU citizen and you speak English to at least ICAO Level 4, and are suitably qualified technically, discrimination, positive or otherwise is unlawful within the EU. So all this talk of unfairness must be completely unfounded
I'm not sure about FPP but the old CEP scheme at BA had non-UK citizens on it. One I recall was a Danish young lady who made it clear that BA was her second choice and she would be jumping ship to DLH as soon as she could.
There are so many Dutchies at BA that I'm surprised there is not a requirement for non-Dutch crew to learn it (makes the conversational parts of long sectors more socially productive). One of the reasons for this is the relationship (not simultaneously) between the two big ATO's in the UK and an NL based 'virtual' training provider. I'm certain that courses through this provider are available to non-Dutch (I think they must be) however, I'm not aware of any that have got through selection if any have applied. Same for the other Dutch schools. It's an interesting dynamic - and one I think is probably lost on the British students who don't appreciate they are all competing for the same jobs but actually, may be disadvantaged in favour of non-UK graduates when applying for BA/EZY/RYR because of this 'arrangement'.
If you want an example of how the British have been treated within the EU, look at how KLMuk pilots seniority was acknowledged by the parent company when the airline was joined with KLC.
The basic truth is that if you are an EU citizen and you speak English to at least ICAO Level 4, and are suitably qualified technically, discrimination, positive or otherwise is unlawful within the EU. So all this talk of unfairness must be completely unfounded
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I totally agree! It is an utter disgrace: I think all the Brits should leave the ME3 carriers, Ryanair (!) as it is Irish, Cathay Pacific and any other airline with a G tail and leave it to the locals! Mmm hold on...I think that there are more pomms abroad than the other way around... Ohh well this UKIP stuff sounds good!
Ohh and this thing:
This has more to do with Union tactics and nothing with nationality.... At the moment the Dutch version of Balpa is scr3wing the Martinair pilots (99% Dutch!) even harder than any KLMuk pilot has ever been done 
ps Let's leave the Scottish routes of BA to a New Caldonian too
Ohh and this thing:
If you want an example of how the British have been treated within the EU, look at how KLMuk pilots seniority was acknowledged by the parent company when the airline was joined with KLC.
ps Let's leave the Scottish routes of BA to a New Caldonian too
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I'm certain that courses through this provider are available to non-Dutch (I think they must be) however, I'm not aware of any that have got through selection if any have applied. Same for the other Dutch schools
It's an interesting dynamic - and one I think is probably lost on the British students who don't appreciate they are all competing for the same jobs but actually, may be disadvantaged in favour of non-UK graduates when applying for BA/EZY/RYR because of this 'arrangement'.
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Actually, I'm quite close GG but thanks all the same. I agree though, the KLMuk issues were driven by the Dutch union and that Dutch financing limited training to NL residents. Both have implications for non-union/non-Dutch/non-NL residents in a free market. Isn't that the point being made? I am aware that Ryanair who employ a lot of people from a lot of places and who have various contractual arrangements with a number of agencies is an Irish registered airline and that Ireland is a member of the EU. I think you may have missed my point though and that is that (despite my earlier partly tongue in cheek remarks), all suitably qualified EU citizens should be (by law) eligible for employment by all EU registered carriers. I don't think this is the case at the moment and the EC has a lot of work to do to ensure that the same rights that BA, Easy and RYR rightly practice in terms of recruiting from across the entire Eurozone are also observed by everyone else - without union, financial, residency or any other impediment. I used the Dutch example only because it has been something I have been very much a part of for the last twenty-five years and I apologise if I have caused offence.
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Brits discriminate against other europeans as well, they don't recognise an european elp level 6. Despite being born and raised in England, but did my flight training in Holland and have a dutch easa license. I now have to pay £135 to redo my elp if I want to convert to a uk easa license. Thank you CAA….
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National carriers don't hire pilots! Air France, Iberia, etc hire but hardly ever! What is the fact to be worried about that? Every pilot should have known before starting any carrier what are the chances and how the pilot market works! Language requirements are not any discrimination is just a requirement!
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They don't hire pilots? LOL are you serious? Are you living on planet Zorg? How long have you been in this industry young man? If you can't see the discrimination that's alive and well then you need thicker glasses. And before you start judging, I've been in this industry long enough to see it, so answer my question, what percentage of foreign nationals make up the numbers in national flag carriers around Europe compared to British Airways?
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How many pilots hire IBERIA???? 120 pilots in 10 years? How many Air France??? And now how many Ryanair, Easyjet, Flybe, Emirates, Flydubai, etc... And I agree with you there is a discrimination compared with BA!
Coffin I haven't judge anyone (I haven't mentioned u in any of my post by the way)! I am just a PPL but I know quite a few Iberian pilots and they haven't any chance with BA due to their poor english!
Coffin I haven't judge anyone (I haven't mentioned u in any of my post by the way)! I am just a PPL but I know quite a few Iberian pilots and they haven't any chance with BA due to their poor english!
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EC DKN you appear to be misconstruing the argument, let me spell it out in plain English (pardon the pun).
How many pilots in the following airline?
Iberia - 2000?
KLM - 4000?
Air France - 4000?
Lufthansa - 3000?
TAP - 2000?
Brussels Airlines - 1500?
SAS - 1500?
LOT - 1000?
Alitalia - 2000?
The list goes on, but you tell me how many English nationals work for those airlines? Now it doesn't matter if they only recruited 120 in the last ten years, or 5000 in the last 50 years, the question is the same, how many English nationals work for those airlines? Less than 1%? You could bet your house that it is that figure. How many English nationals would frequent those airlines should we speak every European language? The same figure. Now if your Iberian friends taught themselves English they could jump in BA in a heartbeat, but if my friends and myself taught ourselves Spanish, how many could jump into Iberia in a heartbeat? A big fat zero. The European pilot market is a one way gravy train, that's reality.
p.s. You don't have to tell me about Flybe, I already know we are being overrun with Dutch nationals, but let it be known I have no issues with this, I am pointing out how it is, not what my own feelings are.
How many pilots in the following airline?
Iberia - 2000?
KLM - 4000?
Air France - 4000?
Lufthansa - 3000?
TAP - 2000?
Brussels Airlines - 1500?
SAS - 1500?
LOT - 1000?
Alitalia - 2000?
The list goes on, but you tell me how many English nationals work for those airlines? Now it doesn't matter if they only recruited 120 in the last ten years, or 5000 in the last 50 years, the question is the same, how many English nationals work for those airlines? Less than 1%? You could bet your house that it is that figure. How many English nationals would frequent those airlines should we speak every European language? The same figure. Now if your Iberian friends taught themselves English they could jump in BA in a heartbeat, but if my friends and myself taught ourselves Spanish, how many could jump into Iberia in a heartbeat? A big fat zero. The European pilot market is a one way gravy train, that's reality.
p.s. You don't have to tell me about Flybe, I already know we are being overrun with Dutch nationals, but let it be known I have no issues with this, I am pointing out how it is, not what my own feelings are.
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FoI
If only we could use the Freedom of Information Act to get these airlines to release their pilot data, that would be very interesting.
I'm pretty sure it would show British airlines are, on the whole, being pretty open to foreign nationals.
I think it would show most European airlines of being heavily biased to their own nationals (illegal in a modern EU).
I strongly believe ALL British airlines should do the same until the other European airlines give British nationals the same opportunities that our airlines give them.
No, I'm not a little Englander, I believe in freedom of movement. One day I want to work abroad as well.
BUT I want fairness for British pilots, many of whom are looking for jobs.
I'm pretty sure it would show British airlines are, on the whole, being pretty open to foreign nationals.
I think it would show most European airlines of being heavily biased to their own nationals (illegal in a modern EU).
I strongly believe ALL British airlines should do the same until the other European airlines give British nationals the same opportunities that our airlines give them.
No, I'm not a little Englander, I believe in freedom of movement. One day I want to work abroad as well.
BUT I want fairness for British pilots, many of whom are looking for jobs.