Let's stand up AGAINST P2F. Sign the petition.

[faacfilookingforajob]

that looks like it was written by a 6 year old

what you don't understand? need help?

[bamboo30]

Hi Yuri Europeans started P2F and Europeans are the ones making up the majority of P2Fers at Lion

[Delta_Charlie]

STOP PAY TO FLY INVESTIGATION

Hi everyone,

I would like to inform you that "Stop Pay To Fly" team is collecting any kind of evidence about P2F programs, if you have something to share, please send to: [email protected]

Do not forget to invite all your friends to join Stop "Pay To Fly" page, in order to be updated and raise your voice...

#StopPayToFly

[P40Warhawk]

Yes Bamboo, The Europeans are the ones who basically started this crap.
Many Dutch, Portuguese, Italians and Spanish participate in this market destroyer. Via Eagle for example.

Yes If we at least want to die trying to stop this nonsense, please help to do something against it. At least in 1 country in EU it is forbidden, we have to help to get the same done in other countries.

Together we are strong. Check links of Delta Sierra. Please send your terms and conditions of your program to that e mail address.

[BAe 146-100]

Maybe if you devoted this amount of effort to your own career that you do to campaigning on behalf of others you would actually be a first officer by now P40!!

[P40Warhawk]

I do not complain yet about my career movement. At the moment I enjoy being FA. I like that experience. Really nice colleagues. I am not in a hurry. And MAYBE I get my chance here also to move forward to FO, WITHOUT paying for my TR and EVEN get paid to do that job. And actually pretty well paid. Quit many FO's walked the same path here in this company.

Of course if I could get an good offer somewhere else where prospects are even better , then Maybe yes. But I dont need to go away from this company. I like it here.

I could have had already by now approx 500-700 hrs B737 ( blacklisted airline )or 400 hrs B717, but those offers and conditions where terrible.

I am patient. My time will come. And yes of course I'd rather start flying as FO yesterday then tomorrow, because that is what I really want, but not under conditions.

[Delta_Charlie]

ATYPICAL EMPLOYMENT IN AVIATION (P2F)

Today in PARIS, the European Cockpit Association (ECA) presents the final report about:

ATYPICAL EMPLOYMENT IN AVIATION
The study is co-financed by the European Commission.
"While finding a job is difficult for young pilots in the first place, they also face situations where they end up subsidising their airline, e.g. by paying the airline to fly its aircraft in order to gain flight experience (“Pay-To-Fly” schemes). This creates potential conflicts of interests for an independent safety professional, and constitutes straight financial exploitation."

HERE you have the full document, where is highlighted many times Pay To Fly as a factor that produce safety concerns and social dumping.

[Superpilot]

..and having to pay €120k + for an integrated course worth half that much but which results in a better chance of a job (if you are in the right age range) is better is it?

[J74]

.and having to pay €120k + for an integrated course......

Who told you to enroll?
Honestly I did the Atpl years ago but don't recall to have spent 1/4 of the price you wrote and nowadays you can spend something like 40/50K euro for the full training.
You don't need to go and spend 100k and above just to have in your CV names like, Oxford and so on........licence are the same and for the same final purpose!

Delta Charlie,
I agree with you about the p2f programs cancer...but....I don't think that the safety is touched!
I repeat that p2f program assessment are the same as for any pilot, you need to PASS SOME ASSESSMENTS and SHOW your SKILLS in the SIMULATOR as well. So if you pass you' re valid pilot as anyone else passed without any p2f.
And I understand that this is the policy of the "major" company doing these type of programs, even if i agree with you that could be a safety downgrade in some Companies where there is no any assessment done previously ! and for that reason we should make some differences-

[JohanP]

I agree with you about the p2f programs cancer...but....I don't think that the safety is touched!I repeat that p2f program assessment are the same as for any pilot, you need to PASS SOME ASSESSMENTS and SHOW your SKILLS in the SIMULATOR as well. So if you pass you' re valid pilot as anyone else passed without any p2f.

Man, P2F is not only about doing an assessment like a regular airline. And, what you say is partially true. Indeed, some people must pass an assessment but I'm pretty sure many others don't and money is just the key. Assessment is a pretext.
Anyway, please don't tell the safety is ok.
How can a pilot be mentally able to fly a B737 or A320 with almost 200 passengers when he/she gets no salary, flies more hours than the max legal, has to come back to his/her base taking the bus for 10hours after the last flight.
How can a pilot be relaxed, unfazed, focused only on the flight when he/she doesn't know how he/she 's gonna pay for food, apartment and all the basic stuff...
And don't think P2F is only for rich people so they don't care about having to pay for living expenses. Some people get big loans to do P2F.
I forgot to mention something: for all of this, you have to pay! This is what I call the big jet flying club! At least, in your flying club you decide where to go.

P2F as well as being self-employed/contractor is destroying the industry but sooner or later, this system will collapse on his own. With how many airplanes?

[J74]

JohanP

Man, P2F is not only about doing an assessment like a regular airline. And, what you say is partially true. Indeed, some people must pass an assessment but I'm pretty sure many others don't and money is just the key. Assessment is a pretext.

I didn't say anything different..read carefully and I repeat that I know some Companies don't have any pre selection...but of course, you have to pass an OPC( I believe, you know what is it).
Believe me I'm in the industry and I know what i'm speaking about.
Something else I believe, for 30 or 50K I don't think anyone could let you seat in thr right seat if you not able. Remember..PILOT INCAPACITATION is always there waiting for you

How can a pilot be mentally able to fly a B737 or A320 with almost 200 passengers when he/she gets no salary, flies more hours than the max legal, has to come back to his/her base taking the bus for 10hours after the last flight.
How can a pilot be relaxed, unfazed, focused only on the flight when he/she doesn't know how he/she 's gonna pay for food, apartment and all the basic stuff..

If you're willing to pay 50k or more to do 500 hours, you're willing to accept all this and you already now from the beginning.

In any case, please LET ME KNOW , from the ABOVE, the Differences btw for istance, WIZZAIR or VOLOTEA etc and the p2f??

Apart from the salary, your description look like RYANAIR...but they still flying with no MAJOR EVENT after more than 20 years.


For me pay to fly= pay for your TYPE RATING so even before getting the hour and be involved in the LT...this is just to understand what I think about that!

MAjor disaster indeed happen to very experienced pilot..and I'm sure you're able to find by yourself all the fact via our GOOGLE friend.

Low hour guys have to start somewhere as many started before even with no p2f...

Low hour guys are more trained cause they just went out from the school and they are very focused and they do well most of the cases.

Experience guys with differente background are flying with regular contract nowadays but still lot of gaps sometimes...and safety concern.

So to speak about PAy2fly is something but to mix that and give the p2f=no safety is another story and in my opinion NOT TRUE!

[Aeromar27]

I think P2F isn't necessarily a safety problem, but a workers' rights problem.

I think associating P2F directly to reduced safety is a mistake and an exaggeration. It's true that, in some cases, P2F could indirectly affect safety, but many other life circumstances could affect safety in the same way and nobody is creating facebook groups against them (divorces, breakups, living in ****ty countries...). It's still a bad thing, and I admit a safety debate could be seen as a more effective way to present the case to the public opinion.

The thing is, P2F is still something we should fight against because it creates a state of unfair competition among candidates.

P2F is not equal to paid type rating. If airlines can't afford training programs, sure, let the applicants pay for training, but after successful completion of the courses, the pilot should be hired, and paid accordingly for his or her services. Otherwise, it would be clear that the airline had no intentions of keeping those new pilots, and that it would just get new ones paying for flying, time after time, forever.

So my opinion is that P2F is not necessarily a safety problem, but a workers' rights problem and, this also being a threat to the industry, it should be treated as such. I'm sure it's easily demonstrable that setting a basic cost of 200.000€ for anyone aspiring for a remote chance to make a living flying big irons, can't be a good thing in the long run...

[J74]

I think P2F isn't necessarily a safety problem, but a workers' rights problem.

sure it is!

but:

P2F is not equal to paid type rating.

you find me disagree. If you're 32 years old as written you should now that times ago the MCC was paid for the Airline Company.
So now that's what happening now, leave people to pay for their own type rating but in this case start to be not fair and quite expensive!
Then which type I should buy?...the A320 oh good...and if then I have the chance to fly a B737 what I have to do? buy another type?
Generally speaking, a Pilot, after the standard training, CPL/IR/MEP should be interview, assessed and if fit, should be trained on the aircraft type of the Company , which have to spend money and time.

If airlines can't afford training programs, sure, let the applicants pay for training

If an Airline can't afford a training programs, so perhaps is not an Airline and the CAA should not release the AOC in my opinion.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Look you guys the vast majority of P2F doesn't even happen in Europe, it happens in SE Asia and Africa. Although, the people who actually pay for it seem to be mostly Europeans

All this talk about "stop P2F" is great, but can any one of you actually point to the relevant part of EU legislation that you want to be amended? And what specific changes you are asking for?

And then please explain how it would be enforced, considering that most of the transactions involve airlines from outside the EU?

In case this EU legislation you are dreaming of gets passed, what do you propose the "punishment" should be for non compliance? Who do you think should be punished, the operators, the middle men, or the guys buying the hours?

[PPRuNeUser0173]

The answer is simple - DON'T DO IT. Just steer clear of these schemes in the first place. If you ALL STOOD TOGETHER and refused to take part in what possibly is the worst thing to happen in the field of aviation employment then it will stop.

Its never going to happen though because some idiots will still do it just to get ahead in the queue for a job. There is no Pilot unity.........and there aren't that many Pilot jobs for the newly qualified ones to go to. In other words you are "two a penny" and you have made a bad career choice!

Pilots will fly for nothing, or fly for food. I don't see Train Drivers or Plumbers working for nothing!

Good luck - get out and put the experience behind you.

[JohanP]

Something else I believe, for 30 or 50K I don't think anyone could let you seat in thr right seat if you not able. Remember..PILOT INCAPACITATION is always there waiting for you

How can you be certain, 100% sure, when you assess someone that he/she will have the right reaction? And even more when it's about young pilots just fresh out of the school, you're a baby, you don't even know how to walk...

Apart from the salary, your description look like RYANAIR...but they still flying with no MAJOR EVENT after more than 20 years.

To me it is not the best exemple, the major event as you say was very close to happen, isn't it? 3 May-Day calls on same day, low fuel emergency. Obviously, it is not serious.

Low hour guys have to start somewhere as many started before even with no p2f...

Low hour guys are more trained cause they just went out from the school and they are very focused and they do well most of the cases.

Experience guys with differente background are flying with regular contract nowadays but still lot of gaps sometimes...and safety concern.

Well, the world turned upside down. If I listen to what you say, it's almost a fresh low hour pilot should be the captain and the captain the copilot because they are more trained? Do you realize what you wrote?
I know what you mean, and some very experienced pilots can still make terrible errors of course. But it is not the general situation.
Please, do not compare a 200TT pilot (mostly on SEP, 30 to 50hours on DA42 or PA34)
to an experienced Captain with 6000 hours on type. It is not possible at all.

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

Blurred lines

We are all paying to fly, directly or indirectly.

Ryan, Easy, Flybe - paid for TR or bond, low salary as FO for first three years equals indirect payment for line training.

Until Airlines give opportunities to low-hour pilots, some will continue to pay for TR and line training. How many FO jobs require min 500 hour on type? That is why pilots pay for line training.

No safety issue there either.

I agree that FI and other GA work is better than going down the P2F route, but we must remember that not everyone has these opportunities.

We would be better to campaign for T&Cs.

[Superpilot]

Who told you to enroll?

I didn't, that was my point. I'm a P2Fer from 2011, just before it got stupidly expensive (€15k for 200 hours if you must ask). I also paid around £45k for a modular ATPL but found I was locked out of jobs and opportunities because I didn't have an integrated ATPL. That's why I had to SSTR and P2F. In total, the money I've handed over is still far less than what my integrated peers have paid (or are still paying today).

The point again is P2F exists because pilot recruitment is unfair and biased towards those who go to the big schools (and pay the big bucks). There's a demand for it, that's why it exists, don't you get that?

[Aeromar27]

What recruiter told you that you didn't get a job because you did a modular ATPL instead of an integrated one. That is preposterous!

The standard route still works. I'm 32 now, and started flying when I was 19. Even today, I see people that started at the same time I did, getting their first airliner jobs in their 30s and early 40s. They got their CPL, became instructors, instructed for many years... most are flying jets now and some are even captains.

That "demand" you talk about is just an excuse you use to feel better.

[Superpilot]

What recruiter told you that you didn't get a job because you did a modular ATPL instead of an integrated one. That is preposterous!

Eh? When you can't put in an application to an airline because low hours jobs are not even advertised, you kind of don't need to be told by a recruiter "We don't hire modular types!" - It's blindingly obvious.

Let's look deeper: EasyJet only hires low houred pilots through CTC. BA and BA Citiflyer only from Oxford, CTC and possibly FTE. FlyBe (mostly speaking) also from the big schools and the top 3 providers of low hours pilots into Ryanair are the standard big integrated schools too. Go into Europe, and it's the same situation across France and Germany. Spain, I'm not sure?

But they're not the only airlines in Europe you say? True. But for those there is competition, fierce competition especially if you have zero commercial experience or no type rating. And skill has very little to do with it. More so than skill, luck and being at the right time/place is what brings successes. You are competing with thousands just to get a phone call or invite.

I think we are living in alternate realities my friend. From what I've seen (also been flying privately since my teens), the FI route into commercial flying has become less viable as the years have passed. The 3 FIs who I know (some who are also experienced examiners) all in their 30s who are getting jet jobs right now have over 3,000 instructional hours and had to SSTR + P2F to get ahead. A few success stories doesn't change the overall situation. I believe I have the bigger picture covered in my analysis.

That "demand" you talk about is just an excuse you use to feel better.

I don't need to feel better. It was and remains an accepted bitter choice. I'm not unique in this department. I've come across many who feel the same. For me, it was this way or the highway. In life, we need to do what works for us, given our own personal situation. Your reality is not the only one a pilot can experience.