Let's stand up AGAINST P2F. Sign the petition.

[Aeromar27]

I did a Modular fATPL, A320 SSTR and some P2F. This lead to several interview opportunities, the likes of which simply did not happen in the 3 years before. I "paid" less than what most integrated fATPL pilots would pay to get the same interview opportunities but what's different is that I started my first job on a full salary with no stupid bonding/reduced salary scales. It;s Horses for courses.

May I ask how much you paid for your salary-less line training and how old you were when you first sat in a jet?

Also, how long after you finished that paid line training until you got your first job as an airline pilot with full proper salary?

[Superpilot]

Sure. €15,000 for 150 hours but I ended up doing almost 200 without any further demands from the airline. I was 30. I started flying privately over 10 years before that.

I put an application in with other airlines whilst still in line training. Interview came 2 weeks after finishing line training, started 3 months later. Again all in 2011/2012.

The expanded history if you're interested is below. I am a Londoner with a family to feed so there's not much by way of aviation employment I can consider. The FI strategy would never work for someone like me, aka "We're not all in the same boat with regards our life situation".

Year 2000 = PPL
Year 2001-(2011) = A career in IT
Year 2005-2006 = Part time ATPL Theory (still in full time employment)
Year 2007-2008 = Part time CPL, ME, IR, MCC (still in full time employment)
Year 2008 = First interview for jet position (failed)
Year 2009 = A320 SSTR
Year 2009-2011 = Full time employment
Year 2011 = Second interview for TP position in Asia (passed) but salary doesn't cover even 25% of bills (by now I have a family and a home)
Year 2011-2012 = A320 P2F
Year 2012 = First paid job (perm)
Year 2013 = Walked away from first job due unable to relocate family. Third interview (passed) but opportunity got deferred to the following year so no flying during 2013.
Year 2014 = Second paid job (contract) again away from home
Year 2015 = Two more interview opportunities this time with local airlines (passed both). Third paid job (perm) starting now. First time flying from home city.

[BAe 146-100]

Superpilot I don't know why you have to feel you have to justify what you have done to be successful, if these 250 hour wannabes don't want to take your advice then more fool them.

[Aeromar27]

Sure. €15,000 for 150 hours but I ended up doing almost 200 without any further demands from the airline. I was 30. I started flying privately over 10 years before that.

I put an application in with other airlines whilst still in line training. Interview came 2 weeks after finishing line training, started 3 months later. Again all in 2011/2012.

The expanded history if you're interested is below. I am a Londoner with a family to feed so there's not much by way of aviation employment I can consider. The FI strategy would never work for someone like me, aka "We're not all in the same boat with regards our life situation".

Year 2000 = PPL
Year 2001-(2011) = A career in IT
Year 2005-2006 = Part time ATPL Theory (still in full time employment)
Year 2007-2008 = Part time CPL, ME, IR, MCC (still in full time employment)
Year 2008 = First interview for jet position (failed)
Year 2009 = A320 SSTR
Year 2009-2011 = Full time employment
Year 2011 = Second interview for TP position in Asia (passed) but salary doesn't cover even 25% of bills (by now I have a family and a home)
Year 2011-2012 = A320 P2F
Year 2012 = First paid job (perm)
Year 2013 = Walked away from first job due unable to relocate family. Third interview (passed) but opportunity got deferred to the following year so no flying during 2013.
Year 2014 = Second paid job (contract) again away from home
Year 2015 = Two more interview opportunities this time with local airlines (passed both). Third paid job (perm) starting now. First time flying from home city.

The type of P2F program you took falls into what some of us consider reasonable. 15000€ for a type rating and 200 hours on type is, in my opinion, training costs and, let me tell you, a great opportunity. Most IR courses are more expensive than that.

Problematic P2F programs are, in my opinion, those that cost more than what it actually costs to get a TR course and whereby the airline is clearly taking advantage of a vocational pilot by using his money to cover operational costs. If you're paying 60.000€ for a P2F program, you're not paying for training alone, you're financing the company to the point that the airline will never consider hiring pilots again.

I got my PPL in the year 2000 when I was 18. Then I had to stop training and flying altogether until very recently. I'm 32 years old now and only have my PPL and ATPL exams. Basically I'm a late re-starter. I'm considering the FI route and would never go for one of those unethical P2F programs. Now, if I were offered a TR with time on type for 15000€, I'd go for it. I hope they're still available when I become eligible. If I was still 23 years old, I probably wouldn't.

Maybe a solution for this whole problem would be to set a type limitation, a maximum price, a maximum number of applicants per year per operator and a maximum amount of hours on type. That way it would be an honest training program.

[Superpilot]

15000€ for a type rating and 200 hours on type is, in my opinion, training costs and, let me tell you, a great opportunity

Nope, you misunderstand that. €15k just for the hours. The TR cost what type ratings do, in the region of €25k inc base check. I'm glad you're coming to understand what I'm saying Aeromar, for a minute I thought you'd been through the exact same as me but had a delightful experience getting that first job! Good luck mate

[Aeromar27]

So I have an honest question...

We all agree that the best possible scenario for someone with 200h-300h SEP would be to get hired to fly a jet and to sign a bond with the airline or to have reduced salary for some time. We all know that doesn't happen anymore.

Another scenario is to do flight instruction to build around 1000h SEP to get hired in the same way. In reality, new instructor openings depend on airlines hiring and clearing the flight-schools of current instructors, so that’s also rarely an option.

I say this because of the comments I read on the Facebook page and on here. It feels like some future pilots, and I include myself, feel P2F is THE reason why they have very low chances of getting a job. It’s not like if regulations suddenly ban P2F, airlines are gonna start hiring low hour pilots again like they used to, and give us free type ratings… or would they? Honest question.

Is it politically incorrect to suggest that a P2F program, which price shows it to be an honest training program, isn’t that bad?

[J74]

Flight Instructor: Is good for your own satisfaction and build experience receiving a salary while flying and signing hours but, if you're lucky you'll find a job in a JET later, but nowadays seems not easy In Europe at least!
They don't care anymore about your TT if you don't have a real Jet rating and if you're going to apply for some Companies, make sure they don't have A320 or B737 otherwise they want the relative TR and some hours on the type.
FI , This is good for the 1500 hours barrier in USA.

Or it could be a way to find a job in some African companies that use SEP and MEP doing bush, safari and so on....and in any case you should have the class rating of certain aircrafts.

If they Ban the P2f, of course something will change I think, maybe some Companies will start to look out of the loop. but don't believe that is full of job out there for not experience people.
With time, most Captains go in retirement, most FO upgrade to the left seat, and they will need new FO to fill the gap anyway.
Don't forget that in some Companies like for istance RAM, Tunisair ect( where P2f is active) nothing will change, cause if they need new FO, they will look inside their country and not for Foreigners.

Is it politically incorrect to suggest that a P2F program, which price shows it to be an honest training program, isn’t that bad?

In my opinion, is incorrect not because you jump the queue but cause you are paying to work instead of receiving a salary and in this way we(as pilots) are going to be our same enemy reducing our salary in the future, going against our rights and downgrading our profession.

[pilot4eva]

Probably the biggest difference is independence. Once you have liabilities with the airline which paid for your training and provided Line Training, you are absolutely in their service. Basically you will fly at any time to any destinations. Which is absolutely fine, unless you are not a fan of such “control”. On the other hand if you choose paid Line Training you gain the “luxury” of choosing the airline which you would love to work for and ability to focus on the job which will bring you everyday pleasure.

Baltic Aviation Academy have released an article about why you should do line training:
Line Training: to pay or not to pay?

What is happening to this industry?

[Officer Kite]

That is extremely poor from Baltic, looks like it was written by a 12 year old.

[P40Warhawk]

So what were the USP's of doing Line training?

Foggy story.

[CockpitSeeker]

Full P2F perpetrators' list known & proven to this day:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_fly#Airlines_and_brokers_involved
Europe is pretty big with it, maybe more than Asia et al now that we think of it..

The campaign is going ok, decent media coverage and political support building... but we need more signatures (12k so far):
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/p2f_must_stop

[AMS]

I was well against p2f but I'm not very sure now....I guess desperation and all

Airlines treat you like and people who have secured their roles and know you - start forgetting what it felt like from the other side.....

No one cares and if money can buy it - then do it.

The schools are corrupt and collude to monopolise leaving a distinction between integrated and modular...

Surely that is also a difference in those paying in advance for a break from the outset!

Only my opinion .....

[Luke SkyToddler]

Dutch MEPs want better protection for young pilots (update) - DutchNews.nl

Seems the politicians are slowly waking up to this nonsense. Well done guys, keep the pressure building

[theiceman747]

OK so, P40, Aeromar27 and the other fully-against it. I have a few words for you.

Folks, I agree with you p2f is no the way, it shouldn't be like this and it's not logic but it started long ago and the trend has been set: The first ones were the ones who got their TR's fully paid and then run after some hours to other places, that was the start. Airlines are not stupid. It's a business organization. From that point, the TR has to be paid by the candidate, and it got worst....

While I agree it shouldn't be this way and p2f is no the correct way, I also think about p2f as an alternative way to get there. Listen folks: you complain about money, do other jobs, etc. First of all not everybody has the same situation (from rich pals to the ones who got a bank-loan to pay training), and you forget something important: Not everybody is a 22yr old guy who has plenty of time to work as Cabin, Ramp, FI, whatever. I know plenty of people in their 30's who in a hurry (they started late) so they now don't have the time to be 3 years a Cabin or whatever. FI? it used to work in the past and it was a "bridge" to airlines, but that was the past and it doesn't exist anymore and being a FI is so much difficult nowadays.

Example? Spain. with +300 days/year of sun, a lot of ATO's. and it's full of Spanish FI's making queque ready to get SEP time for miserable wage. There's a problem, for sure. Also what I told you about the age, when you start late and time passes quickly, you are in a hurry and not everybody has the time and effort to be Cabin for 3 yrs "hoping" for an upgrade. Again, there's a problem.

But is the problem some people pay for flying or it's because the "pilot training machine" is set all over europe (and world)?? why you dont' complain about the ******* CPL sellers all over europe? maybe that's the problem don't you think? There's a school on every corner selling FATPL so hundreds do this: buy,finish and get unemployed (and complain, of course). It's so simple: there's too much of us because training capacity doubles (at least) the jobs available. In India they know a lot about that.

Don't you still get it? OK, if i tell you about SUPPLY AND DEMAND do you understand that? There's lot of pilots and not enough jobs, so the managment makes profit about that because when supply exceeds demand the game is on the "demander" side, and we are on the "supply" side sadly.

So, We are a lot hoping for a job, we don't comply with requirments they set. What they (managment, HR) do? Set the bar to "500 hours on type and line-checked", so they make profit of this: the candidate is Line trained, line checked, and is ready to fly the line with just an OCC.

If we were not so much, the airlines would be desperate and would return to the practices of 70's , 80's (long gone,no comeback) where being a pilot was rare and they struggled to recruit new crews, but sadly we don't live in that era. Wake up.

[theiceman747]

Need to tell you something else:

We live in a world of Capitalism (that's what society wanted right?) so everybody wants always more, and we also live in a Low Cost world, with the bigger benefit and the lower cost. Start to think about the world we live in. Business in Capitalism is making the higher profit with the lower cost, anything else (people, families, etc) doesn't matter at all in this system. Why should be different in Aviation? Airlines can save money and get LT-L.Checked candidates who don't cost a penny to them? They will hire those who don't cost a penny and make them do an OCC and put them on the line, and they will pay them a very low salary (welcome to aviation of this century, at least at the present). Realize that.

You know will tell me about the 70's/80's, and there was also a capitalism in that era and people (and pilots) lived quite well back then with capitalism. Back then capitalism was starting, and was fighting against an opposite idea and had to set a "high standard way-of-life" to defeat the opposite idea of Comunism to attract people, society and Governments into that idea and not into comunism. That fight was won long ago, so now we have the truth behind the "high standards" promised: work a lot, pay is . Make profit, cut costs, don't matter anything else.

A lot of people chooses to do p2f because it boosts your chances, because of age, desperation, and because no-one in aviation is your friend, and as we live in free market if someone can "buy" and get ahead of you someone will do it, and if you don't there will be always someone who can get ahead of you because they can afford and you don't. They will be be ahead of you because they are qualified with hours or whatever and you are not.
It's unfair, but it's a OPEN CHANCE. But the only ones who can end that are authorities and they have their own agenda and they don't care about pilots complaints, the will do nothing, neither about the crazy training system that supplies way more pilots that airplanes available, so realize that and do whatever you can.

I think p2f is not how things should be, but it's an open chance for people how can afford it and don't have any other opportunities left, to make interviews come and start their careers.

[DeafOldFart]

Recruiting the wrong people for the right reasons is a problem caused by uninformed HR minions....
Huge pilot shortage projected... so there should be employers piling up CV's in anticipation. Make yours a good one.
Old fashioned system was 700 hrs minimum, and the dreaded IR exams, loadsa money. Who paid??? Self improvers..
In theory, P2F types should have passed a scrutiny of their health and psychological fitness. Money can circumvent this safety check as well.
As a dyed in the wool nutter, I feel qualified to advise on psychological issues, poacher turned gamekeeper as it were.
CATCH -22 - If you want to fly for a living, you are probably crazy, but we have to choose the least crazy among you in order that we keep our passengers. Recent history is rather illuminating.

[P40Warhawk]

No it ain't an open chance. Only the ones with a big wallet will get then into the RHS, not the ones who might be really talented or skilled, but not with a big wallet.

Signing a bond, that is the solution, and pay a fine if you want to leave the company before the end of the bond. Pay proper salaries. Being a pilot is a job. You EARN money for the company, because without us pilots, the Airline will not fly, not flying is no revenue / profit. See FR. Profit even increased. Not strange. They raised again the TR costs.

ONLY PAX SHOULD PAY TO FLY. NOT US.

If you start late with your career then it is your problem. Not the problem of the young guys. If you want something, you have to work for it and deserving it.

To be honest, I find it pretty strange in the first place that grads, straight from school fly straight in to B737 A320 aircraft. From cruise speed 125KTS to M0.87. and 185pax. But thats another point, but P2F is a huge CANCER to our business , and again, not always the best pilots sit in the RHS, but the one with the biggest wallet. But even if I would have had the money, then I would NEVER do it. For me being a pilot is a job. That means I need to earn money with it so I can pay my bills. We can not live from the sunshine, and air. We need to eat, drink and live somewhere > not under a bridge. Drive our car from home to airport and back. All that costs money. And in EVERY other branch you do something for your employer, and as a reward for working and production, you get paid a salary. A salary conform your education and responsibilities.

So there is NO good excuse to participate in P2F. Also not when you are older. Dont make your late decision someone elses problem. That shows a lack of empathy and teamwork, but more loner behaviour.

Start networking, try to be on right time in the right place. That might bring you to your goals. If not, then at least you tried, but NO P2F.

[AMS]

P40

I see your point mate and agree with it to some extent....

However, you also seem to only see it from one side - "if you are older and start late tough" really?

Well in which case - earn, save and when you have the money then try......

Sadly where there is over supply and dream there will be abuse and here we are......

All should be given a fair chance and there should be a varied employee profile - old and new - experience and less experienced.....

Agree it is only a job and views and sunshine does not put food on the table ....

Sadly these views will remain here and here only no one cares .....

Sorry to be brash....

Back to the positivity - we shall get a job eventually....

Certainly not giving anyone 60k after tax for hours and type and a chance - at least yet

[theiceman747]

P40

kDear,

I think you did not understand a simple word of my posts.

I didn't mention I started late my training, I just turned the twenties. But not everyone is in the same situation, not everybody is a youngster. Theres people with family, others over 30, others have taken a loan to pay their training, etc. If you start late it's problem that's right, also true you will have the market not-friendly maybe, but because someone started late doesn't mean they have done things bad or they did not go for their dreams.... a lot of people works some years to earn the money for training and when they have it, they can be on the thirties, do you realize that right?.

Going back of what you said: bonds could be good options but where you see a bond in a airline? Flybe mostly and few others. There's not thing such a "loyalty bond". I would glady sign a bond for some years! But that doesn't happen generally speaking and you also know it. Airlines don't hire anyome guys with 200-1000 TT (except RYR!) and put them on the TR courses with a bond. That does not happen anymore and you know it.


I don't see airlines making bonds because each airline makes whatever they want! one airline will force pilots sign a bond, and the next one will require pilots to pay upfront TR (RYR, EZY). It's free market. Every business sets their own rules! And there's no such a tendency to go back to the past where bonds were the norm!. And also, in the coming years all operators require "hours on type" hmm... surprise! this was no required in the past also, but now yes it's required some experience on the type of aicraft operated by the company, in the past this was not required, you were hired with 1000-2000 GA time and then they trained you on the line training (while earning a salary!). So tell me P40, where are you going to get that time on type required if everyone asks for it?? Complete mess.

Good times of aviation with good salaries are long gone. Accept it.

I understand what you say about p2f and not doing it of whatever, but tell to wait and not do it to a pilot on their thirties/fourties who is going nowhere (there's not enough jobs for all of us sadly) who see a youngster get in because they can afford paying a LT. Who is going to tell to that pilot to not do it?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Who is going to tell to that pilot to not do it?

Nobody, because you're a pack of selfish clueless short sighted muppets who won't listen to reason, and you don't care about the damage you do to this industry or the greater level of risk you collectively pose to the travelling public. That's your choice.

But we WILL tell the regulators and the politicians and the social media and the newspapers and everyone else who cares to listen.

Because we need to save people like you from your own greed and stupidity