TR and 500hours, still looking for a job???
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a320
I say go pay. Who cares if A320 pilots are ten a penny? Someone with 500 on type and 750TT would look really attractive to a quality airline. You'll have a life of fantastic autopilot monitoring ahead coupled with a lifetime of being employed by an airline, subject to the spiraling terms and conditions that P2F deliver. Dull or what?!
Or you could instruct. Learn to fly properly without a computer. Meet amazing people and find yourself in a situation you never considered. It could be contract flying, Bizet work or something more esoteric. You'd be on good money, master of your destiny and not whining about pay blah blah, hours blah blah. You wouldn't be blithering on about seniority or time to command. Zzzzzz!
But maybe your sources outside aviation know something we all don't. All I do know is the airlines don't have much appeal anymore; there's a whole world of more rewarding flying out here.
Don't be a steady Eddie. Do something rewarding instead.
I say go pay. Who cares if A320 pilots are ten a penny? Someone with 500 on type and 750TT would look really attractive to a quality airline. You'll have a life of fantastic autopilot monitoring ahead coupled with a lifetime of being employed by an airline, subject to the spiraling terms and conditions that P2F deliver. Dull or what?!
Or you could instruct. Learn to fly properly without a computer. Meet amazing people and find yourself in a situation you never considered. It could be contract flying, Bizet work or something more esoteric. You'd be on good money, master of your destiny and not whining about pay blah blah, hours blah blah. You wouldn't be blithering on about seniority or time to command. Zzzzzz!
But maybe your sources outside aviation know something we all don't. All I do know is the airlines don't have much appeal anymore; there's a whole world of more rewarding flying out here.
Don't be a steady Eddie. Do something rewarding instead.
Last edited by stacee jaxx; 5th May 2013 at 20:06.
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Well good luck with whatever that will be!
However few things to consider, I had a friend who went with EJ / Lion - and his initial reports was not the best, still he did get the job with them as promised. However last 12 months, I have not heard anything from, despite several e-mails etc., from this I can probably draw few conclusions!
His time with them was a nightmare, but yes he was getting paid, and getting hours after his initial 500 hours!
Still, to get those hours, it will always take more time than expected. With my current company it has take me 7 months, and I am just coming up to 500 hours now. And my company flies relatively hard, and they let us be more than flap-operators!
Which is the norm over in Asia, a friend who flew for Sebu I think, was told on 90% of his flights, this is a captains flight! (Landings and Take-Off)
Fact was that the FO, with little experience had more knowledge about the aircraft than the local captain with thousands of hours of experience! Few captains even admitted this themselves!
So go to these P2F, and consider what you are actually getting!
500 hours on type, and less than 1000 - 1500 hours TT, will still not get you a job, neither in Europe or Asia!
Now some Asian countries are looking for captains, here is catch 22, stay with a company until you get command, and PIC, with this you will nearly be unemployable with any European / UK airline, as nearly none of them takes DEC!
So unless you plan to live for the rest of your life in Asia or as a travelling one-man band, you need to set your goals and plans for your career early! Get in with a company that will make you happy to work for, that will give you the things you want in life, and you need to go there as an FO, if not, well it gets harder, even if you have all the experience in the world.
We all have various goals what we want in life, I might have complained and bitched about UK for many years, but after being so "lucky" to live in other less privileged countries for some time, I would give an arm and a leg, to be able to get a job with a UK company today!
So back to your original question, 500 hours on type is just a goalpost, than most have either 1000 - 1500 hours TT - so in my opinion you will be stuck between somewhere in between a cadet and low experienced pilot, and your odds of getting a job will not improve enough to justify the cost of the TR and Line training. At least minimum before you do it, was that you have at least 500 - 1000 hours flying in advance, so at least tick those boxes for most applications!
However few things to consider, I had a friend who went with EJ / Lion - and his initial reports was not the best, still he did get the job with them as promised. However last 12 months, I have not heard anything from, despite several e-mails etc., from this I can probably draw few conclusions!
His time with them was a nightmare, but yes he was getting paid, and getting hours after his initial 500 hours!
Still, to get those hours, it will always take more time than expected. With my current company it has take me 7 months, and I am just coming up to 500 hours now. And my company flies relatively hard, and they let us be more than flap-operators!
Which is the norm over in Asia, a friend who flew for Sebu I think, was told on 90% of his flights, this is a captains flight! (Landings and Take-Off)
Fact was that the FO, with little experience had more knowledge about the aircraft than the local captain with thousands of hours of experience! Few captains even admitted this themselves!
So go to these P2F, and consider what you are actually getting!
500 hours on type, and less than 1000 - 1500 hours TT, will still not get you a job, neither in Europe or Asia!
Now some Asian countries are looking for captains, here is catch 22, stay with a company until you get command, and PIC, with this you will nearly be unemployable with any European / UK airline, as nearly none of them takes DEC!
So unless you plan to live for the rest of your life in Asia or as a travelling one-man band, you need to set your goals and plans for your career early! Get in with a company that will make you happy to work for, that will give you the things you want in life, and you need to go there as an FO, if not, well it gets harder, even if you have all the experience in the world.
We all have various goals what we want in life, I might have complained and bitched about UK for many years, but after being so "lucky" to live in other less privileged countries for some time, I would give an arm and a leg, to be able to get a job with a UK company today!
So back to your original question, 500 hours on type is just a goalpost, than most have either 1000 - 1500 hours TT - so in my opinion you will be stuck between somewhere in between a cadet and low experienced pilot, and your odds of getting a job will not improve enough to justify the cost of the TR and Line training. At least minimum before you do it, was that you have at least 500 - 1000 hours flying in advance, so at least tick those boxes for most applications!
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I'm curious. I keep hearing how these pay2fly schemes are going to help folks get a job in Europe. Who in Europe HIRES (I mean hires and PAYS) direct entry type rated FOs at the moment. Must be able to count them on one hand.
You also have to consider some of the extra requirements when looking for work. There may be jobs in say Germany, Italy or France for example. However do you speak German, Italian or French? If not you will be unable to apply there.
Next thing if you do consider these pay2fly schemes, please be careful if you end up at some black listed carrier in the Far East. You may have some experience on the 737 or A320 but how many airlines in Europe are going to hire you after flying there? Someone commented about moving out of Europe and if you do that's it. You'll be an expat life. I have to agree, very difficult to move back. Also, to reiterate from a previous comment. 2000 at a foreign carrier isn't gonna get you any closer to a command in Europe than if you were a flight instructor. Your gonna come back after 3 or 4 years and if your fortunate enough to get another job, slip in at the bottom of the seniority pile.
I know 2 guys who went through pay2fly. For one guy it worked out. Did his time, was offered a job and has gained some good time over the last 5 years. However he desperately wants out, can't find another job. Had his application in with the middle eastern carriers for a year and still hasn't been short listed. And he works for a good European operator. Worth noting that out of 10 pay2fly guys on his course, he was one of two that actually got hired.
The other guy I know that did it didn't get anywhere. Thought it was the best thing ever 5 years ago. Flew around for free for a year or so, was let go when his contract was up and now he's living with his mum. And she is helping to cover his loan payments. 29 years old, no flying job in 4 years, barely covering the interest payments on his loan. What a disaster, feel so sorry for the guy. But he was warned...
Moral of the story. It's entirely up to you which path you take. Just please remember, you have been warned countless times on these forums. Please. Listen to us when we tell you for every 1 success story there are 9 people who it didn't work out for who are living with mum.
One more thing that is food for thought. If you pursue a pay2fly scheme, get released after 500 hours and can't find a job. You know why that is? Because of new guys paying to fly! It's a vicious circle isn't it!?!
You also have to consider some of the extra requirements when looking for work. There may be jobs in say Germany, Italy or France for example. However do you speak German, Italian or French? If not you will be unable to apply there.
Next thing if you do consider these pay2fly schemes, please be careful if you end up at some black listed carrier in the Far East. You may have some experience on the 737 or A320 but how many airlines in Europe are going to hire you after flying there? Someone commented about moving out of Europe and if you do that's it. You'll be an expat life. I have to agree, very difficult to move back. Also, to reiterate from a previous comment. 2000 at a foreign carrier isn't gonna get you any closer to a command in Europe than if you were a flight instructor. Your gonna come back after 3 or 4 years and if your fortunate enough to get another job, slip in at the bottom of the seniority pile.
I know 2 guys who went through pay2fly. For one guy it worked out. Did his time, was offered a job and has gained some good time over the last 5 years. However he desperately wants out, can't find another job. Had his application in with the middle eastern carriers for a year and still hasn't been short listed. And he works for a good European operator. Worth noting that out of 10 pay2fly guys on his course, he was one of two that actually got hired.
The other guy I know that did it didn't get anywhere. Thought it was the best thing ever 5 years ago. Flew around for free for a year or so, was let go when his contract was up and now he's living with his mum. And she is helping to cover his loan payments. 29 years old, no flying job in 4 years, barely covering the interest payments on his loan. What a disaster, feel so sorry for the guy. But he was warned...
Moral of the story. It's entirely up to you which path you take. Just please remember, you have been warned countless times on these forums. Please. Listen to us when we tell you for every 1 success story there are 9 people who it didn't work out for who are living with mum.
One more thing that is food for thought. If you pursue a pay2fly scheme, get released after 500 hours and can't find a job. You know why that is? Because of new guys paying to fly! It's a vicious circle isn't it!?!
Last edited by Desert Budgie; 10th May 2013 at 01:32.
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Thanks for all your comments, they are much appreciated. After weighing up all the options, focusing on the advantages/disadvantages of both P2F and CFI I have decided to do an Instructors Rating and plan to Instruct for the next two years. During this time I'll be keeping a close eye on the market and job opportunities and hopefully I will never have to do a P2F program.
Cant wait to start my training in the coming months!
Cant wait to start my training in the coming months!
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fi rating or pay to work is pretty much the same...
you don't make any money at the end.. since i stopped to fly I make more money than when I was flying and i pretty much do nothing all day long.
before all my money was gone in rating, hotels, doctors, test, interview... now i can see my bank account filling by itself like magic...
fi pay nothing except a little in summer but many people cancel last minutes. many days you sit in a school by doing nothing and you wonder why you have to do this...
you don't make any money at the end.. since i stopped to fly I make more money than when I was flying and i pretty much do nothing all day long.
before all my money was gone in rating, hotels, doctors, test, interview... now i can see my bank account filling by itself like magic...
fi pay nothing except a little in summer but many people cancel last minutes. many days you sit in a school by doing nothing and you wonder why you have to do this...
Last edited by joblooker; 12th May 2013 at 19:55.
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Well to be fair, I know of 7 FI's, that all got jobs last year (2012) - yes they worked many years, I think the range was 2 - 5 years, but last year they all got jobs with various airlines. (Maybe one got job on biz.aircraft - but still it all gave them a step in the right direction)
But yes, money goes and goes!
But yes, money goes and goes!
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FIs by no means make much money. But they are making money. At least you have an income and are learning (what I feel is important) good PIC skills. At my old operator, the guys we hired who got FO jobs straight out of school and were from the right seat of other multi crew operators often had better flying skills than the instructors we hired...Initially...
However these guys had no PIC time, and when it came time to upgrade, the former flight instructors outclassed them hands down. You may be able to teach guys straight out of flying school how to be good FOs. But it is difficult to teach someone how to be a PIC and be a good decision maker. That comes with experience and I believe that PIC time accumulated as a flight instructor is extremely beneficial down the line when it comes time to upgrade with the airlines.
However these guys had no PIC time, and when it came time to upgrade, the former flight instructors outclassed them hands down. You may be able to teach guys straight out of flying school how to be good FOs. But it is difficult to teach someone how to be a PIC and be a good decision maker. That comes with experience and I believe that PIC time accumulated as a flight instructor is extremely beneficial down the line when it comes time to upgrade with the airlines.
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Hello,
I've not posted here before, but I thought I would contribute my experiences. Like yourself, I have been tempted with the P2F schemes. It's especially tempting when you see ex coursemates sitting in the RH seat of a jet...buying a TR and time on type does work for some, but not all. I chose the FI route and I've not regretted it for a second. Yes the pay is rubbish, yes you get treated badly by (some) employers...but I actually love the flying I do - which judging by some posters on this site is quite a rare thing.
I work a second job so I avoid complete destitution and will probably take the first airline job which comes my way, but in the meantime I'm very happy to have my PIC hours tick over, have at least some income and more importantly become much better at what I do. I would be quite happy to continue down the instructor route as a career, but EASA has seen to that!
I've not posted here before, but I thought I would contribute my experiences. Like yourself, I have been tempted with the P2F schemes. It's especially tempting when you see ex coursemates sitting in the RH seat of a jet...buying a TR and time on type does work for some, but not all. I chose the FI route and I've not regretted it for a second. Yes the pay is rubbish, yes you get treated badly by (some) employers...but I actually love the flying I do - which judging by some posters on this site is quite a rare thing.
I work a second job so I avoid complete destitution and will probably take the first airline job which comes my way, but in the meantime I'm very happy to have my PIC hours tick over, have at least some income and more importantly become much better at what I do. I would be quite happy to continue down the instructor route as a career, but EASA has seen to that!
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A320 - well done man. 
Good choice. You will learn so much about yourself as a pilot by instructing. Sure the pay isn't great, but it is rewarding. It is so gratifying seeing your student solo, pass their checkride etc. You will feel great.
Plus you won't be in a lot of debt and you will be much more respected by future captains that you fly with when you get on that A320. And those PIC hours will slowly be adding up.
Also, try to get a part time job that will help with the bills. And the biggest thing NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK. Cause the guy coming through that door to get checked out in a 172, just might be a CP with some operator.
Good luck and again wise choice. Enjoy and keep us posted of your progress.
Cheers!
Good choice. You will learn so much about yourself as a pilot by instructing. Sure the pay isn't great, but it is rewarding. It is so gratifying seeing your student solo, pass their checkride etc. You will feel great.
Plus you won't be in a lot of debt and you will be much more respected by future captains that you fly with when you get on that A320. And those PIC hours will slowly be adding up.
Also, try to get a part time job that will help with the bills. And the biggest thing NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK. Cause the guy coming through that door to get checked out in a 172, just might be a CP with some operator.
Good luck and again wise choice. Enjoy and keep us posted of your progress.
Cheers!
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Thank you all! I have to say the decision wasn't easy and it took a lot of time to make up my mind. As already said above my instruction hours will go towards my command anyway and airlines will appreciate that I went instructing for a number of years.
I know there are thousands of people who are in the same position as me and have to make a similar decision also, I just hope this thread will help other Pilots make their decision.
Cheers!
I know there are thousands of people who are in the same position as me and have to make a similar decision also, I just hope this thread will help other Pilots make their decision.
Cheers!
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TR and 500hours, still looking for a job???
A320 airlines will not be thankful or appreciative of your time instructing!! infact they will just turn you away as they dont care about GA pilots
one way or another you are going to have to pay for TR and line training eventually, but if you want to waste 5 years instructing first thats up to you!
these guys on pprune are all anti pay for hours, dont get left behind just to please them!! screw them its your life mate
I am P2F pilot, literally done my CPL in 6 months, bought cheap TR and done P2F 500 hours on A320 and been flying ever since
honestly mate if you wanna please these old guys then take there advice, but if you want to get ahead and fly the big planes you need to do P2F its the only way mate trust me!
I literally got a job offer from another airline to fly A320 last week, but I am happy at my current place for now
anyway I speak the truth! its nothing to be proud of! its sucks that I had to pay but this is just how its done now
one way or another you are going to have to pay for TR and line training eventually, but if you want to waste 5 years instructing first thats up to you!
these guys on pprune are all anti pay for hours, dont get left behind just to please them!! screw them its your life mate
I am P2F pilot, literally done my CPL in 6 months, bought cheap TR and done P2F 500 hours on A320 and been flying ever since
honestly mate if you wanna please these old guys then take there advice, but if you want to get ahead and fly the big planes you need to do P2F its the only way mate trust me!
I literally got a job offer from another airline to fly A320 last week, but I am happy at my current place for now
anyway I speak the truth! its nothing to be proud of! its sucks that I had to pay but this is just how its done now
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Propellers.....If I get 500 hours, I'll have 780 total time which limits me to just a few airlines. If I instruct for a year or two I will have an extra 1000 hours and will give me a far bigger range of airlines to apply for, some maybe even closer to home.
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TR and 500hours, still looking for a job???
yeah but your not looking at the bigger picture, its not just 500 hours, you will be asked to stay on and get even more time, you meet loads if contacts just being in the airline environment, just take the leap and it all falls in to place.
1000 hours in SEP sounds nice but you will still need hours in aircraft with MTOW in excess of 20 tons and how do you get that???P2F only way!!
you can work in europe easily, look at small planet, XL, Wizz they are all taking on pilots with 500 hours jet time.
anyways don't look at it as just 500 hours it turns in to so much more! trust me you will see!
1000 hours in SEP sounds nice but you will still need hours in aircraft with MTOW in excess of 20 tons and how do you get that???P2F only way!!
you can work in europe easily, look at small planet, XL, Wizz they are all taking on pilots with 500 hours jet time.
anyways don't look at it as just 500 hours it turns in to so much more! trust me you will see!
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Out of curiosity Propellors, how did you complete your Airbus TR? Was it a case of you purchased a TR and then started applying to airlines, or that an airline agreed to take you on, on the premise that you purchased a TR and Line Training with them?