Pilots changing career
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In my opinion if the exams was not multiple choice, you would have a high standard of candidates, that probably would have a better foundation / understanding in the subjects.
But for me equally as important, there would be far less spending absurd amounts of money on training that will in the end give them no job!
The FTO's are very happy to have a high pass rate of students, both scores and number of students getting trough their training.
I have seen people hardly ever open their ATPL books, go straight on the QB, and lets be honest banging trough that a few times, will give you most the answers! Go trough the QB 3 - 6 times, and you will know more or less all, I have seen it happen few times with few people I know!
And seriously, if I ever see these people flying a commercial aircraft in the future, I will get of and rather take a train!
Regarding level of English etc., I am not sure why this should be a major issue, of course to enter you would need a certain level of written English anyway, and it would be technical subjects.
When ever in any walk of life I see exams with multiple choice, I get amused, as you have 25% or 33% chance if 4 or 3 questions to get it right, without having a clue about the subject, how can that reflect the true knowledge of the students!
With multiple choice the pass level should maybe be increased to a higher level, I still think essay style would have avoided this boom in pilots without hope!
But for me equally as important, there would be far less spending absurd amounts of money on training that will in the end give them no job!
The FTO's are very happy to have a high pass rate of students, both scores and number of students getting trough their training.
I have seen people hardly ever open their ATPL books, go straight on the QB, and lets be honest banging trough that a few times, will give you most the answers! Go trough the QB 3 - 6 times, and you will know more or less all, I have seen it happen few times with few people I know!
And seriously, if I ever see these people flying a commercial aircraft in the future, I will get of and rather take a train!
Regarding level of English etc., I am not sure why this should be a major issue, of course to enter you would need a certain level of written English anyway, and it would be technical subjects.
When ever in any walk of life I see exams with multiple choice, I get amused, as you have 25% or 33% chance if 4 or 3 questions to get it right, without having a clue about the subject, how can that reflect the true knowledge of the students!
With multiple choice the pass level should maybe be increased to a higher level, I still think essay style would have avoided this boom in pilots without hope!
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There is a marked difference in how the degree qualified pilots tackle problems both in the air and dealing with documentaion on the ground.
The degree pilots follow the format, problem definition, research, develope a solution then document. Which is what your taught with a degree.
The none degree educated tend to pinpoint solutions from previous experence which works sometimes and gets more successful with high levels of experence. But if the problem is a new problem this is extremely wastful of time and generally the solution isn't particularly effective or works for other reasons than the ones presumed which can then lead it to fall over if the situation changes.
The degree pilots follow the format, problem definition, research, develope a solution then document. Which is what your taught with a degree.
The none degree educated tend to pinpoint solutions from previous experence which works sometimes and gets more successful with high levels of experence. But if the problem is a new problem this is extremely wastful of time and generally the solution isn't particularly effective or works for other reasons than the ones presumed which can then lead it to fall over if the situation changes.
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Not really its pretty obvious when you look in and see which way the trouble shooting develops to issues.
The whole point of SOP's and QRH's and the like is so the crew doesn't have to think. They are led through the trouble shooting procedure to the result by following a checklist which has been written by panel of experts who more than likely have degrees.
Go to Uni and find out or do a couple of OU courses and see how the courses start pushing your mind into thinking in a certain way depending on the course.
There are folk out there that are just naturals but they are few and not very common.
BTW you do get academics who should never be let loose with a screwdriver. And are suspect driving a car. So be proud of the skill you have. It ain't a degree its being an aviator with a broad skill set encompassing handling, managment, law, systems, teaching etc etc.
I can't actually understand why a pilot would want to lump themselves in with a load of graduates. Especially the ones from the breeze block polys that have been pumping them out over the last 6-8 years. Its a different skill set.
The whole point of SOP's and QRH's and the like is so the crew doesn't have to think. They are led through the trouble shooting procedure to the result by following a checklist which has been written by panel of experts who more than likely have degrees.
Go to Uni and find out or do a couple of OU courses and see how the courses start pushing your mind into thinking in a certain way depending on the course.
There are folk out there that are just naturals but they are few and not very common.
BTW you do get academics who should never be let loose with a screwdriver. And are suspect driving a car. So be proud of the skill you have. It ain't a degree its being an aviator with a broad skill set encompassing handling, managment, law, systems, teaching etc etc.
I can't actually understand why a pilot would want to lump themselves in with a load of graduates. Especially the ones from the breeze block polys that have been pumping them out over the last 6-8 years. Its a different skill set.
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When ever in any walk of life I see exams with multiple choice, I get amused, as you have 25% or 33% chance if 4 or 3 questions to get it right, without having a clue about the subject, how can that reflect the true knowledge of the students! With multiple choice the pass level should maybe be increased to a higher level...
your amusement is clearly unjustified as a little piece of probability calculation quickly reveals:
The chance of a candidate who is merely guessing is following a binomial distribution:
Pn is the probability of k successes in n trials, p is the chance of success for each single trial, in our case 25%. Out of pure curiosity I calculated a few examples:
If there was only 1 question to answer, the chance of success is clearly 1:4 as you stated correctly. But don't get deceived by this apparently easy prey. If there were 9 out of 12 questions to be answered the chance decreases quickly to less than 1 : 2500. The shortest JAR-FCL exam subject (mass&balance) has 22 questions out of which 17 must be answered correctly to pass. Your chances of passing even this short test by pure luck are less than 1 : 2.5 million. A 40-question-test would give you a 1 : 21 billion probability, the longer exams are virtually impossible to "crack". It's just like playing roulette: to hit black or red once is easy. But to hit black 30 times in a row is almost impossible.
To sum this up: a pass level of 75% is more than enough to sort out the clueless. And if someone managed to pass all 14 subjects this reflects at least a profound knowledge of the question bank...
Last edited by Higher for hire; 18th Mar 2013 at 20:50.
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Higher for hire;
Sorry your equation might be wrong, however it still leaves a 25% on each question to get it right by guessing.
Second, after going over the QB more than 2 times, the guessing odds will have strongly reduced, probably to 25% chance of guessing wrong!
Obviously you have not seen what I have seen!
I have seen candidates, plural, never open their books, but still pass their exams alone on using the QB's!
I did not say they would pass the whole exam by luck, but with QB and a bit of luck, not really that complicated!
Also a multiple choice test, can give you the answer, to help you recall some of what you have read/studied, but might not have remembered, unless you saw it written in front of you!
But don't worry, when you go for CPT upgrade, there is no longer multiple choice exams to worry about! Still I have to say, from what I have seen, it does not give enough to give me comfort in that the student really has understood the topic, it is to easy, simple as that!
Sorry your equation might be wrong, however it still leaves a 25% on each question to get it right by guessing.
Second, after going over the QB more than 2 times, the guessing odds will have strongly reduced, probably to 25% chance of guessing wrong!
Obviously you have not seen what I have seen!
I have seen candidates, plural, never open their books, but still pass their exams alone on using the QB's!
I did not say they would pass the whole exam by luck, but with QB and a bit of luck, not really that complicated!
Also a multiple choice test, can give you the answer, to help you recall some of what you have read/studied, but might not have remembered, unless you saw it written in front of you!
But don't worry, when you go for CPT upgrade, there is no longer multiple choice exams to worry about! Still I have to say, from what I have seen, it does not give enough to give me comfort in that the student really has understood the topic, it is to easy, simple as that!
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truck I learnt very early on that probability maths is best left to those that understand it. And I am 100% certain that I don't and its not obvious to me anyway some of the solutions. BUt I did learn that they are right.
That equation does look familiar. But thats from over 20 years ago now 1st year Eng maths.
The 25% guess factor on a question is correct but the combinations of probabilitys gets a bit confusing (to me anyway) when looking at the final proberbility.
The way the Question banks have been designed with 2 stupid answers and 2 similar but one slightly wrong. Sometimes all of them wrong but you have to choose the most correct. Means that you cant really apply the "standard" maths to it all. Most questions are a 50/50 choice with two discarded as stupid.
If anyone with even the sightest bit of proffessional examination setting got there hands on the questions I am pretty sure that the whole set of exams would be deemed flawed.
Unfortaunately now it is possible to hammer the QB's and get through with very little conceptual understanding of the subject matter and even get on paper very good results.
Its certainly not uncommon on the line to use terms like dirty side of the drag curve and "once you have trimmed for the speed" to be met with complete confusion from the pilot. Who had passed there ATPL theory under 12 months previously with a 98% average.
That equation does look familiar. But thats from over 20 years ago now 1st year Eng maths.
The 25% guess factor on a question is correct but the combinations of probabilitys gets a bit confusing (to me anyway) when looking at the final proberbility.
The way the Question banks have been designed with 2 stupid answers and 2 similar but one slightly wrong. Sometimes all of them wrong but you have to choose the most correct. Means that you cant really apply the "standard" maths to it all. Most questions are a 50/50 choice with two discarded as stupid.
If anyone with even the sightest bit of proffessional examination setting got there hands on the questions I am pretty sure that the whole set of exams would be deemed flawed.
Unfortaunately now it is possible to hammer the QB's and get through with very little conceptual understanding of the subject matter and even get on paper very good results.
Its certainly not uncommon on the line to use terms like dirty side of the drag curve and "once you have trimmed for the speed" to be met with complete confusion from the pilot. Who had passed there ATPL theory under 12 months previously with a 98% average.
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For goodness sake you lot who cares about the ATPL theory exams they are just a meaningless rote-learning-and-regurgitation hoop you have to jump through on the way to the good stuff, which is of course developing the situational awareness / judgment / motor skills that comes from spending a few years at the controls of a very large very fast passenger jet.
A monkey could pass the ATPL writtens with enough coaching and a monkey could also pass some of the airy fairy nonsense that passes for degrees these days, I think we've established that.
Piloting doesn't mean passing the ATPL writtens- piloting means possessing the necessary judgment and skills required to take 500 lives in your hands, plan and execute a safe departure from a snow bound European city, navigate across 12 hours of mountain ranges and war zones, and and successfully land on an Asian runway in typhoon season. It is a skill that to me is far above and beyond what any wet behind the ears "degree" is capable of teaching.
Show some pride in your profession!
A monkey could pass the ATPL writtens with enough coaching and a monkey could also pass some of the airy fairy nonsense that passes for degrees these days, I think we've established that.
Piloting doesn't mean passing the ATPL writtens- piloting means possessing the necessary judgment and skills required to take 500 lives in your hands, plan and execute a safe departure from a snow bound European city, navigate across 12 hours of mountain ranges and war zones, and and successfully land on an Asian runway in typhoon season. It is a skill that to me is far above and beyond what any wet behind the ears "degree" is capable of teaching.
Show some pride in your profession!
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Advice?
I was wondering if I could ask for some advice in relation to what degrees/qualifications you all think would help get me into a position to improve this industry? Thank you also to those on this thread who have advised me in the past.
I constantly read on these forums about how T&C's are degrading and 'numpty's are in charge, well instead of just bailing out I'd prefer to work out a long term strategy of putting myself in a position to improve things. My last two Chief Pilots were/are both remarkably admirable men who rule their prospective airlines/companies with common sense and a fair hand, and I think if more people like this can get into the right places then long term everything improves. Naive maybe, but we won't get anything if we don't try.
I'm currently flying as an FO for a small UK TP operator and am looking at around 3-4 years of busy summer seasons with plenty of downtime in the Winter months. Perfect to do a degree or some other distance learning course but am struggling to choose what to do. Physics and maths interest me, as does engineering. I'm looking to do something that will compliment my aviation career but not be completely reliant on me being a pilot either, something that will allow me to take it further too, as in the masters or post-graduate route... Or would I be better off with a business or some sort of law/management degree? (In the larger airlines they may open paths to management roles or is that too simplistic a view?)
As a background to myself I'm a pretty good pilot, and academically always worked hard. A1 Grades in English, Physics/Chemistry and a B in Higher Level Maths back in Ireland before I left. (No bragging here just so you have an idea I would be willing to tackle a high level or advanced degree)
Another influencing factor is my partner has a good job which offers her opportunities to work worldwide, meaning there may potentially be periods in the future where taking a job outside of a flying role would be appealing.
I have looked at the OU website and am going to call them for a chat soon. Where I am located currently an online course is the only real option right now. My housemate currently does a distance learning Physics degree with them and is happy with how its going, also deferring your payments until you finish is appealing. Somewhere along the way an FI rating is a goal too, but financially not really an option for awhile.
As I said I'm looking at the long term route here, and any advice (good or bad, is appreciated).
I constantly read on these forums about how T&C's are degrading and 'numpty's are in charge, well instead of just bailing out I'd prefer to work out a long term strategy of putting myself in a position to improve things. My last two Chief Pilots were/are both remarkably admirable men who rule their prospective airlines/companies with common sense and a fair hand, and I think if more people like this can get into the right places then long term everything improves. Naive maybe, but we won't get anything if we don't try.
I'm currently flying as an FO for a small UK TP operator and am looking at around 3-4 years of busy summer seasons with plenty of downtime in the Winter months. Perfect to do a degree or some other distance learning course but am struggling to choose what to do. Physics and maths interest me, as does engineering. I'm looking to do something that will compliment my aviation career but not be completely reliant on me being a pilot either, something that will allow me to take it further too, as in the masters or post-graduate route... Or would I be better off with a business or some sort of law/management degree? (In the larger airlines they may open paths to management roles or is that too simplistic a view?)
As a background to myself I'm a pretty good pilot, and academically always worked hard. A1 Grades in English, Physics/Chemistry and a B in Higher Level Maths back in Ireland before I left. (No bragging here just so you have an idea I would be willing to tackle a high level or advanced degree)
Another influencing factor is my partner has a good job which offers her opportunities to work worldwide, meaning there may potentially be periods in the future where taking a job outside of a flying role would be appealing.
I have looked at the OU website and am going to call them for a chat soon. Where I am located currently an online course is the only real option right now. My housemate currently does a distance learning Physics degree with them and is happy with how its going, also deferring your payments until you finish is appealing. Somewhere along the way an FI rating is a goal too, but financially not really an option for awhile.
As I said I'm looking at the long term route here, and any advice (good or bad, is appreciated).
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Whilst it is not a requirement to have a degree to operate a glass cockpit aircraft, you will find that, if you show up at The Boeing Company or Airbus Industrie without a degree your CV will be in the bin rapidly. In fact, the base level for entry into these two great companies is likely to be a Masters degree and for anything serious, a PhD is the norm
It is common practice for pilots to dismiss university graduates. However, for most university graduates, operating a glass cockpit aircraft is not an intellectual challenge. The challenge they seek is to develop user-friendly, reliable flight deck software, work out the thermal dynamics of a jet engine, work out the mathematics required to navigate from one point on earth to another accurately, the performance charts, stress dynamics of composite material, the physics involved in aerodynamics - need I go on. Most of them carry out work for buttons - if anything. Let's thank our university friends for the contributions they have made to aviation and, made flying so safe for the general public. Your work has made flying easier, thanks for your efforts. H708 BSc(Hons), MCP
It is common practice for pilots to dismiss university graduates. However, for most university graduates, operating a glass cockpit aircraft is not an intellectual challenge. The challenge they seek is to develop user-friendly, reliable flight deck software, work out the thermal dynamics of a jet engine, work out the mathematics required to navigate from one point on earth to another accurately, the performance charts, stress dynamics of composite material, the physics involved in aerodynamics - need I go on. Most of them carry out work for buttons - if anything. Let's thank our university friends for the contributions they have made to aviation and, made flying so safe for the general public. Your work has made flying easier, thanks for your efforts. H708 BSc(Hons), MCP
