Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse
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OK, let's discuss the matter seriously now. Who is to blame then???
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newpilot,
Networking does the trick indeed, even in Europe.
The key to finding a job is starting off at the bottom. Or find a job that gets you near those already in, i.e. cabin crew, ramp, dispatch. And once you're in and flying, keep knocking on doors to progress.
In this biz, you have to be extremely patient. And persistent. But that will pay off.
I know of people who have send in their CV to the same operator ten plus times before eventually hearing back. Are you doing this?
Just another example: there was an ad on a contractor site, where an Asian HTP operator was looking for skippers: you had to be rated. Or non-rated. Min req was 3000+ TT with a fair share of PIC and multi crew time. Once in you could either wait your time and move up to their jet fleet. Or accrue the hours needed for a certain jet operator in the sandpit. So, there you go, two operators hiring non-rated guys, which could be a path to that first elusive jet job. And I'm sure there's more out there.
Now how to get those initial 3000 TT qualifying you for an application for that TP job, you'd have to be creative.
Go to Africa, meet the people there. If you're unsuccessful in your first year around, try again the following year. Maybe keep in touch with the people already working there. Let them know no hard feelings, you'll be happy to wait until next season.
Look around your area for tug, dropping, aerial photography work. Maybe instructing? It may be hard to see for someone just coming out of flight training how this road could really lead to flying bigger planes, but it does. Ask the old hands hanging here.
The main thing is, keep flying and keep knocking on doors.
It's tough, no question. And many years will go by before finally getting to fly that jet. But if it was easy, everyone'd do it.
Networking does the trick indeed, even in Europe.
The key to finding a job is starting off at the bottom. Or find a job that gets you near those already in, i.e. cabin crew, ramp, dispatch. And once you're in and flying, keep knocking on doors to progress.
In this biz, you have to be extremely patient. And persistent. But that will pay off.
I know of people who have send in their CV to the same operator ten plus times before eventually hearing back. Are you doing this?
Just another example: there was an ad on a contractor site, where an Asian HTP operator was looking for skippers: you had to be rated. Or non-rated. Min req was 3000+ TT with a fair share of PIC and multi crew time. Once in you could either wait your time and move up to their jet fleet. Or accrue the hours needed for a certain jet operator in the sandpit. So, there you go, two operators hiring non-rated guys, which could be a path to that first elusive jet job. And I'm sure there's more out there.
Now how to get those initial 3000 TT qualifying you for an application for that TP job, you'd have to be creative.
Go to Africa, meet the people there. If you're unsuccessful in your first year around, try again the following year. Maybe keep in touch with the people already working there. Let them know no hard feelings, you'll be happy to wait until next season.
Look around your area for tug, dropping, aerial photography work. Maybe instructing? It may be hard to see for someone just coming out of flight training how this road could really lead to flying bigger planes, but it does. Ask the old hands hanging here.
The main thing is, keep flying and keep knocking on doors.
It's tough, no question. And many years will go by before finally getting to fly that jet. But if it was easy, everyone'd do it.
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I am telling you we, as pilots, are our worst enemies. If pilots were not paying for the these P2F schemes with LCC's in Europe, airlines would bring in FO's the traditional way, which would then open up slots for new guys to take their spots in GA like glider towing, FI jobs, sky diving gigs etc. I.e. the natural progression to a FO job....Then FO pay would be better, quality of life for FO's would be better, etc, etc.
My advice to all newbies, is take your time, explore your options and save your money. Think long and hard about the pro's and con's of this career before some fast talking, cheap grinning, used car salesman, I mean, flight school rep has you mortgage your house or your parents house for flight training. REALLY do your homework regarding flight training and the costs and sacrifices associated with it.
p.s. newpilot; sending out CV's to every airline via email doesn't cut it. They throw it on a stack with all the other CV's they receive via email. Trust me you are really wasting your time doing that. The way to network is go knocking on doors. Best of luck!
p.s.2 newpilot: by the way we do not call low timers bad names. We were all low timers at one point in our careers. The one's we call bad names are the P2F guys. Big difference. I have the utmost respect, as do most professional pilots, for a low time guy building hours and experience by towing gliders, working as bush pilots, CFI's, guys flying skydivers etc. P2F guys, not so much and I'll leave it at that.......
My advice to all newbies, is take your time, explore your options and save your money. Think long and hard about the pro's and con's of this career before some fast talking, cheap grinning, used car salesman, I mean, flight school rep has you mortgage your house or your parents house for flight training. REALLY do your homework regarding flight training and the costs and sacrifices associated with it.
p.s. newpilot; sending out CV's to every airline via email doesn't cut it. They throw it on a stack with all the other CV's they receive via email. Trust me you are really wasting your time doing that. The way to network is go knocking on doors. Best of luck!
p.s.2 newpilot: by the way we do not call low timers bad names. We were all low timers at one point in our careers. The one's we call bad names are the P2F guys. Big difference. I have the utmost respect, as do most professional pilots, for a low time guy building hours and experience by towing gliders, working as bush pilots, CFI's, guys flying skydivers etc. P2F guys, not so much and I'll leave it at that.......
Last edited by TheBigD; 11th Feb 2013 at 14:39.
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Stick, Absolutely. New pilot you are quite ahead of the game since you are in no debt.
Go to a local flight school, make contacts there and perhaps get your CFI with that local flight school. I am sure they would bring you on as a part time CFI. So you will still be in the game, staying current, and buidling time. That's what I would do. But first visit local flights schools within an 1 to 1.5 hour driving radius from your home and if they are looking for CFI's, get your CFI rating with that school. I am sure they would employ you. Might be worth a shot.
Go to a local flight school, make contacts there and perhaps get your CFI with that local flight school. I am sure they would bring you on as a part time CFI. So you will still be in the game, staying current, and buidling time. That's what I would do. But first visit local flights schools within an 1 to 1.5 hour driving radius from your home and if they are looking for CFI's, get your CFI rating with that school. I am sure they would employ you. Might be worth a shot.
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BigD,
Spot on.
newpilot2010,
Don't be put off. It's not an easy walk.
Do not target the airlines because it's true, virtually all of them want 500 hours, which you do not have at this stage.
The trick is, as I said before, to target GA operators at the bottom of the food chain; SEP work that is.
Start off there, do a good job, be professional right from the start, learn, have fun, make friends. While on the job you will be watched by fellow pilots and earn a reputation - good or bad. If you're hard-working and fun to hang out and have a beer with after work, doors will open.
What's your total time? 400 yet? There's an ad on LPJ.com.
Best of luck!
Spot on.
newpilot2010,
Don't be put off. It's not an easy walk.
Do not target the airlines because it's true, virtually all of them want 500 hours, which you do not have at this stage.
The trick is, as I said before, to target GA operators at the bottom of the food chain; SEP work that is.
Start off there, do a good job, be professional right from the start, learn, have fun, make friends. While on the job you will be watched by fellow pilots and earn a reputation - good or bad. If you're hard-working and fun to hang out and have a beer with after work, doors will open.
What's your total time? 400 yet? There's an ad on LPJ.com.
Best of luck!
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Hey Newpilot2010,
Like piloto2011 says, don't give up, it's just that times are really hard at the moment.
Things will hopefully improve but it may'be a while yet. I don't know what you do outside of flying but if possible it's probably a good idea at the moment to focus on trying to build another career (don't put all your eggs in one basket type thing) and just keep looking for pilot jobs you could apply for in the meantime.
p.s what country do you live in where there's no local flight schools?
Like piloto2011 says, don't give up, it's just that times are really hard at the moment.
Things will hopefully improve but it may'be a while yet. I don't know what you do outside of flying but if possible it's probably a good idea at the moment to focus on trying to build another career (don't put all your eggs in one basket type thing) and just keep looking for pilot jobs you could apply for in the meantime.
p.s what country do you live in where there's no local flight schools?
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Today my advice to a wannabee would be do what you want, but be prepared to live with the consequences. I'm sick to death of telling people to 'hold off' or informing people of the shady schemes that the airlines are using today. I believe a particular moderator of this forum had the same problem and lost interest
The industry, in Europe anyway, is so far down on it's arse at the moment that it faces a monumental struggle to recover. A few more pay to fly or work for nothing pilots adding their shiny new CPLs or MPLs into the melting pot will make no odds. As already suggested, you can buy hours on widebodies now or even pay for a command if you have the dosh. People are still queuing round the corner for Ryanair and Easyjet, despite the fact that neither are expanding and the terms have been further reduced. People thought it was a fantastic idea to become a pilot during a global financial melt down, when airlines, training organisations and flying clubs were and still are falling by the wayside on a regular basis.
So do as you please; it doesn't matter anymore apparently. Unfortunately it seems it will take an accident where a low experienced crew causes fatalities before anything changes. You remember Colgan, right? Offering your services for zero remuneration isn't anything new anyway. There was a
head at my flight school back in 2005 who took out an add in the back of Flight saying he'd work anywhere in the world for nothing. That's back when people were getting jobs!! I understand he went on to purchase a Citation rating and then one for the Airbus with hours on type. I was happy to hear that he still hasn't secured employment. Maybe there is still a little justice left in the world?
The industry, in Europe anyway, is so far down on it's arse at the moment that it faces a monumental struggle to recover. A few more pay to fly or work for nothing pilots adding their shiny new CPLs or MPLs into the melting pot will make no odds. As already suggested, you can buy hours on widebodies now or even pay for a command if you have the dosh. People are still queuing round the corner for Ryanair and Easyjet, despite the fact that neither are expanding and the terms have been further reduced. People thought it was a fantastic idea to become a pilot during a global financial melt down, when airlines, training organisations and flying clubs were and still are falling by the wayside on a regular basis.
So do as you please; it doesn't matter anymore apparently. Unfortunately it seems it will take an accident where a low experienced crew causes fatalities before anything changes. You remember Colgan, right? Offering your services for zero remuneration isn't anything new anyway. There was a
head at my flight school back in 2005 who took out an add in the back of Flight saying he'd work anywhere in the world for nothing. That's back when people were getting jobs!! I understand he went on to purchase a Citation rating and then one for the Airbus with hours on type. I was happy to hear that he still hasn't secured employment. Maybe there is still a little justice left in the world?
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 12th Feb 2013 at 19:01.
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Something you don't get in an MPL program or with a grand total of 200 hrs flight time. Look at AF447
The 1st F/O had 6,600 hours including 2,600 on type
The 2nd F/O had 3,000 hours including 800 on type
None of them had done an MPL training programme.
I am lost as to the point you are making?
It's called experience . Look at AF447.
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get this industry any more. The sad part is it will get worse and I don't see it getting better..............Most of these kids don't see that their actions are hurting the industry as a whole.....Just my 2 cents worth. Sorry for the rant guys.
Go to Maun bush flying, instruct, work up the ladder to turboprops like the rest of us did. Theres even this:
So all we are in a pretty similar position. This is because any body cared about the others and now we pay all together our selfish behaviour.
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Taking shortcuts (such as PFT) because you didn't do proper research on career prospects at the outset is no excuse. There are jobs out there if you're patient and creative.
I'm in the US, and there's a local rich guy who bought 2 TRs to get hired on at a jet charter operator. Citation and Falcon. He's stuck in the right seat, as he lacks the skill and attitude to command. Impatience and skill rarely go together.
Why in the world do folks take training for a job they know is top-heavy with entry-level bodies, with little hope for hiring or advancement? Other careers don't have PFT schemers. PFT didn't happen overnight, it's been around for decades. If no one used the scheme, it would die out.
I was instructing years ago and took a call from a Sabre captain looking for a FO for the next day's trip, as his FO was taken I'll. I said I'd be glad to, and asked what the pay would be. He was upset at the question, and said it was jet experience and no pay. I declined.
Not long after, I interviewed with a corporate TP chief pilot who needed a backup FO. One of the last interview questions he asked was what pay I expected for a day trip. I had a price in mind and told him. He didn't react, just finished with a couple more questions. He took me on a day trip for flight eval and paid the rate I quoted. I was hired and on a later trip, he asked me why I thought I got the job. I said it may have been my ME hours or total time. He said, 'No, it's because you had a price in mind and wouldn't work for free'.
Ever since, I've used the same standard. I've never hired someone who would lower the bar for myself and the industry by stooping to such a level.
I'm in the US, and there's a local rich guy who bought 2 TRs to get hired on at a jet charter operator. Citation and Falcon. He's stuck in the right seat, as he lacks the skill and attitude to command. Impatience and skill rarely go together.
Why in the world do folks take training for a job they know is top-heavy with entry-level bodies, with little hope for hiring or advancement? Other careers don't have PFT schemers. PFT didn't happen overnight, it's been around for decades. If no one used the scheme, it would die out.
I was instructing years ago and took a call from a Sabre captain looking for a FO for the next day's trip, as his FO was taken I'll. I said I'd be glad to, and asked what the pay would be. He was upset at the question, and said it was jet experience and no pay. I declined.
Not long after, I interviewed with a corporate TP chief pilot who needed a backup FO. One of the last interview questions he asked was what pay I expected for a day trip. I had a price in mind and told him. He didn't react, just finished with a couple more questions. He took me on a day trip for flight eval and paid the rate I quoted. I was hired and on a later trip, he asked me why I thought I got the job. I said it may have been my ME hours or total time. He said, 'No, it's because you had a price in mind and wouldn't work for free'.
Ever since, I've used the same standard. I've never hired someone who would lower the bar for myself and the industry by stooping to such a level.
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Those options still do exist indeed. But they won't come easy.
Newpilot, do us all a favor and stop whining. No one forced you into this.
If you have 450 hours under your belt, as you claim, look up that Africa opportunity that was recently advertised on LPJ.com. They're asking for 400 hours. Unless you haven't done so already, which I would think and hope you have, sit down, produce a one-page, no typo CV with a presentable passport size picture, and drop them your CV.
With all due respect, to someone looking for a job I shouldn't have to point out this opportunity. You should have been in for the run well before they went public.
Good luck.
Newpilot, do us all a favor and stop whining. No one forced you into this.
If you have 450 hours under your belt, as you claim, look up that Africa opportunity that was recently advertised on LPJ.com. They're asking for 400 hours. Unless you haven't done so already, which I would think and hope you have, sit down, produce a one-page, no typo CV with a presentable passport size picture, and drop them your CV.
With all due respect, to someone looking for a job I shouldn't have to point out this opportunity. You should have been in for the run well before they went public.
Good luck.
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I'm retired now so I don't have a dog in this fight. I also remember what it was like trying to get my break into the airlines. Having said that, here's one big difference between my generation and the new guys/gals....Attitude
None of my peers expected to get into the pinnacle of aviation without a few years stint of instructing, s/e air taxi, m/e air taxi, flying the mail, commuters, etc. We had a grasp on our limitations and knew we were lacking something that's debated on aviation boards daily...Instrument flying skills!
And no, 200-300 hours of airline style training does not translate into 2000-3000 hours of instrument flight instruction. It only gives us more "children of the magenta line".
It's no wonder that regular line captains are p/o'ed about p2f, they are all too well aware of one little fact, it's their ATP on the line.
My advice would be, lower your expectations, realize your limitations, make flight instruction your first goal, and above all know that life just isn't fair.
None of my peers expected to get into the pinnacle of aviation without a few years stint of instructing, s/e air taxi, m/e air taxi, flying the mail, commuters, etc. We had a grasp on our limitations and knew we were lacking something that's debated on aviation boards daily...Instrument flying skills!
And no, 200-300 hours of airline style training does not translate into 2000-3000 hours of instrument flight instruction. It only gives us more "children of the magenta line".
It's no wonder that regular line captains are p/o'ed about p2f, they are all too well aware of one little fact, it's their ATP on the line.
My advice would be, lower your expectations, realize your limitations, make flight instruction your first goal, and above all know that life just isn't fair.
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TBH,
The only way this will stop is if the potential aviators say " no way " before entering training. IE reject the industry in this format .
Yes, we used to have the self improver route.I pushed planes etc then instructed - in the UK this route is not really available anymore. There are very few small companies and only about three TP airlines to try, and even if you do end up with 20T TP time, the ways into the major airlines are barred mainly.
As for this " naive 20 year old" , I had an instructing colleague who paid for a B737 rating with British Midland in 1995 !! This is not the youngsters fault, it's been creeping in for at least 18 years. Why did he do it ? No jobs !
The only way this will stop is if the potential aviators say " no way " before entering training. IE reject the industry in this format .
Yes, we used to have the self improver route.I pushed planes etc then instructed - in the UK this route is not really available anymore. There are very few small companies and only about three TP airlines to try, and even if you do end up with 20T TP time, the ways into the major airlines are barred mainly.
As for this " naive 20 year old" , I had an instructing colleague who paid for a B737 rating with British Midland in 1995 !! This is not the youngsters fault, it's been creeping in for at least 18 years. Why did he do it ? No jobs !
