Have you given up?
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cowhorse - what rubbish
having a degree gives no indication whether one can operate a modern jet or not
I have a degree yes, but I don't' believe it really adds much to my ability to fly
There are many examples of far less formaly-educated people with much better flying careers tha me
I know of one Easyjet captain who only has GCSEs, joined the Army, then left,became a small aircraft pilot then went ATPL and now has four stripes in an A320
having a degree gives no indication whether one can operate a modern jet or not
I have a degree yes, but I don't' believe it really adds much to my ability to fly
There are many examples of far less formaly-educated people with much better flying careers tha me
I know of one Easyjet captain who only has GCSEs, joined the Army, then left,became a small aircraft pilot then went ATPL and now has four stripes in an A320
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Stable
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
having a degree gives no indication whether one can operate a modern jet or
not
not
I have a degree yes, but I don't' believe it really adds much to my ability to
fly
fly
I know of one Easyjet captain who only has GCSEs, joined the Army, then left,became a small aircraft pilot then went ATPL and now has four stripes in an A320
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Cowhorse! 
To echo your sentiment, the rationale you have provided is why the majority of military officers are degree educated and why a lot of graduate schemes in the UK just require 'a degree'. It demonstrates commitment and the ability to learn.
Having said that, not everyone requires a graduate level of education, but in certain professional and industrial circles it is most definitely appreciated.
I have worked hard at everything throughout my life and have had some success in some unusual and fairly specialist roles.
As a result, I could be considered to have a bizarre, yet half decent CV. Only a few years ago I would have been a realistic contender for a professional airline pilot's job...
However, what we are now witnessing is a profession rapidly becoming a 'job'.
I now find myself in the position that no matter how well qualified I am, with 'highly relevant' professional work experience and qualifications I would still lose out if sat in a room with your 'fitness instructor' that doesn't have two qualifications to rub together.
Put simply. He has 30k. I don't.
I guess I'm not alone...
Having said that, I have friends who work in other sectors. It's not just the airlines where training budgets are minimal/non existent for the role that people are being asked to perform.
It is also not unusual for 'expensive' experienced people to be shown the door, via some unscrupulous means and to be replaced by a trainee or the woefully inexperienced. They're a 'cost effective way of employing someone'.
HR/Directors don't care who is in post - as long as there is a bum on a seat and they're cheap. Such is this moronic 'McDonaldisation' of everything in the Western world, where the only people who gain from such practice are the directors and shareholders at the expense of the quality of work/product/service etc...
I say that as a staunch top hat wearing, urchin flogging capitalist, too...
The uneven distribution of wealth in the Western world is moving to ridiculous levels.
What we see in the airline industry is just a small part of this...
To echo your sentiment, the rationale you have provided is why the majority of military officers are degree educated and why a lot of graduate schemes in the UK just require 'a degree'. It demonstrates commitment and the ability to learn.
Having said that, not everyone requires a graduate level of education, but in certain professional and industrial circles it is most definitely appreciated.
I have worked hard at everything throughout my life and have had some success in some unusual and fairly specialist roles.
As a result, I could be considered to have a bizarre, yet half decent CV. Only a few years ago I would have been a realistic contender for a professional airline pilot's job...
However, what we are now witnessing is a profession rapidly becoming a 'job'.
I now find myself in the position that no matter how well qualified I am, with 'highly relevant' professional work experience and qualifications I would still lose out if sat in a room with your 'fitness instructor' that doesn't have two qualifications to rub together.
Put simply. He has 30k. I don't.
I guess I'm not alone...
Having said that, I have friends who work in other sectors. It's not just the airlines where training budgets are minimal/non existent for the role that people are being asked to perform.
It is also not unusual for 'expensive' experienced people to be shown the door, via some unscrupulous means and to be replaced by a trainee or the woefully inexperienced. They're a 'cost effective way of employing someone'.
HR/Directors don't care who is in post - as long as there is a bum on a seat and they're cheap. Such is this moronic 'McDonaldisation' of everything in the Western world, where the only people who gain from such practice are the directors and shareholders at the expense of the quality of work/product/service etc...
I say that as a staunch top hat wearing, urchin flogging capitalist, too...
The uneven distribution of wealth in the Western world is moving to ridiculous levels.
What we see in the airline industry is just a small part of this...
Last edited by Poose; 8th Jan 2013 at 16:49.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Giving up should not necessarily be seen as a failure. It is far better to change direction than continue to furrow a path that is not working.
We all know that this career is heavily dependent upon financial resources, as nearly every tagged scheme involves paying upwards of £70k and often re-mortgaging a house. This inevitably disqualifies many able candidates from the outset.
We all know that this career is heavily dependent upon financial resources, as nearly every tagged scheme involves paying upwards of £70k and often re-mortgaging a house. This inevitably disqualifies many able candidates from the outset.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've realised that you cannot buy a dream
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Uk
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there will be no paid jobs anymore. I mean good paid job where you can live with a salary regardless if you are 25 or 40 with a family to feed them ....paid 1500 euro a month is not a salary for me. Did you know slaves were paid too....housing, food....like a pilot....:-)
You have to be dumb to go in this career knowing the situation.(negative trend since these last 20 years)
I remember when you guys said it was foolish to not spend all your money in this profession in 2006 because there was a pilot shortage.
Anyway, have fun to deal with your bank now....feed them more....:-)
Here more hope for you, from fly gosh. This guy is right....stop to dream and go uni,
As usual, since this is the new year, a lot of you asked me whether should you invest money on a type rating, pilot Jobs outlook for 2013 and beyond and any slots or vacancies coming up.
> I will start with the pilot industry. Bear in mind that this is solely base on my own opinion since I hire them and know first hand info on whats happening behind the scenes.
>
> Pay to fly will be the de facto method use by airlines especially “some “ low cost carriers to hire new pilots. It use to be only paying for the type rating but certain airlines are asking you to pay right from zero hours. Jetstar and Tiger airways are some of the airline who practise that. You can see the info here Jetstar Cadet Pilot and Cadet Pilot - Tiger Airways.
>
> I know everyone hate it but sadly, that is how the industry will be and is here to stay. But before you complain, you must understand the reason behind it. Oil prices are soaring and as I am typing this, many airlines especially the European region are closing down or going bankrupt.
>
> Airlines will find whatever ways to cut cost and asking pilots to pay is one of them. The second reason is to protect themselves. In Indonesia for example, it use to be free and their rating paid for but a lot of expat abuse the system. Once they get the rating and hours, they just ran away to their home country. We all know that ratings are not cheap and always remember that an airline is to make money, not a free school offering you scholarship and lose money in the end.
>
> So before you complain, put yourself in the airline’s shoe and imagine yourself as the boss. However the good news is if you are a local citizen, normally you will still be sponsored though it is changing now. For example, malindo has been reported in the news asking all new hired pilots to pay for their rating and line training even though they are locals. You can read about it here .
>
> In the eyes of the airline, it’s a win win situation. They get to save cost and you get to gain experience.
>
> A lot of people accuse that pay to fly pilots are rich kids who are useless and can’t fly. In my personal opinion, I do not think that is the case. There are simply not enough slots for jobless pilot and obviously not everyone can be invited. I know because at the moment I have 4000+ pilots in my database and some are really good pilots, just that they never have the chance to be invited. Like some of you mention to me, “certain” sponsored students got in because of their connection and race and not base on their capability.
>
> One point I want to make is, I am not justifying pay to fly and I hate it too. After all, who doesn’t want free lunch? But this is how the industry is now and no point complaining on things which is beyond our control and focus on things which are within our control that I am sure all of you will agree.
>
> Let’s move on to aircraft rating. Majority of you ask me whether is it better to take a B737 or A320 rating. I would say go for whatever aircraft that you like to fly ( unless there is a job guaranteed after you obtain the rating ). If you prefer airbus you take airbus and vice versa. As for me, it doesn’t matter what aircraft type so long I get to fly and I am lucky to be flying a boeing jet today. Both rating are marketable especially in Indonesia since we have so many B737 and A320 operators here.
>
> Now let’s go to the important topic of pilot job outlook for 2013 and beyond as that is the biggest headache for the entire thousands of jobless pilot out there. We all read that there is a pilot shortage and there is a need for hundreds of thousands of pilot in the coming years. Honestly, I think all that is bullsh*t.
>
> If journalists are not paid to write rosy stuff, who will enrol into flying school or TRTO to get rating? All their business will collapse. Like i have mention earlier, plenty of airlines are closing down especially in the European region and the market is flooded with experience pilots with thousands of hours. I am getting so many resume from experience pilot and even they themselves are finding a hard time to get a job.
>
> The latest casualties are from Singapore Airlines. You can read the news here. Captain are asked to take unpaid ( read no salary) leave and if a major airline like Singapore Airline, one of the most biggest and profitable airline in the world can do this, you have an idea how the smaller ones will survive in this tough industry.
>
> That is why there is the pay to fly thing going on, is either they save cost and get some pilots flying, or close down and no pilot jobs at all.
>
> They mention that airlines are ordering many aircraft and new planes hence the need for extra pilots, of course they will be extra slots but with so many experience pilot flooding the pilot, where are the jobs for freshies? Plus like the case of Malaysian Airlines, yes they are getting many new planes but they are also retiring many old plane and have excess pilots now. Even then their excess pilots are being send to fly in Indonesia as secondment. Another example is Silk Air which intends to replace all their A320 with B737.
>
> Also bear in mind that the new orders of hundred of aircraft is not coming in overnight and it may take few years before they can be delivered.
>
> The good news is, we have upcoming slots for CPL/low hour and also those rated with zero hours on type. But the number of slots is getting smaller and smaller as in the last few years, so many foreign pilots fill up all the vacancies in Indonesia. It use to be a common thing to fly to Indonesia and go directly to the airline office to get a job. Now at this point of time, that is not possible anymore and wasting your time and money unless you have connection or know someone inside.
>
> But the amount of jobless pilots keep increase daily with them graduating almost every month from flying school around the world. I still remember it takes me few weeks to get a recruitment event to be filled up last time, today I only need few hours before we are fully booked.
>
> I know what I am saying above is not really a good piece of news especially for the start of the year since everyone love to hear rosy and beautiful painted story that there are tons of job around. I am not saying there are none, just that it is limited and it is becoming a challenge to get your first airline job especially for freshies. Some says that it is important to stay positive which is true but I suggest you want to add a thing called “reality”. Staying positive and being reality is too different thing. That is exactly why so many invest a lot of money in their CPL and rating and end up jobless. Remember, nobody put a gun in your head and you can only blame yourself for not doing your research and being ignorant.
>
> I am not saying don’t do it since like myself, no matter whether the industry is good or not I will still chose to become a pilot as I can’t imagine myself doing any other jobs. It’s a challenge and I waited 2 years after flying school before I got my first job. So if I can do it, so can you. In fact as all of you know by now, I am giving people the opportunity to become a pilot , something which I have never imagine I will do so since I was once in your shoe, a jobless pilot knocking doors around the world looking for opportunity. I am not blowing my horn here but today I have to politely decline offers and seriously life can turn out to be awesome when you least expect it ! ( provided you have a positive mindset and take action ).
>
> What I wrote above may not please some of you, after all we can’t please everyone right?. Look you can complain and procrastinate which in my dictionary, that is wasting time and a pilot job can never drop down from the sky or you can chose to take action under whatever circumstances and make the best out of it. Honestly, if I can, I will invite everyone ( 4000+ in my database ) and hope all of you become a pilot. But you and I know that is not possible as there are limited slots. Their first priority is always their own local citizens first. Just like Malindo, their newly recruited pilots must all be 100% Malaysian. That’s why the best way is to try your home country airline first if that is possible.
>
> For those of you who are considering taking up piloting as a career, make sure you have done your research and have all the financials in place. It’s an awesome career and worth every effort to be where I am today. Also, please consider taking up a university degree before you embark your career as a pilot. I spend 4 years in university before I fly and it is important to use your degree as a backup in case ( touch wood ) your pilot career fail or “yet” to take off !
>
You have to be dumb to go in this career knowing the situation.(negative trend since these last 20 years)
I remember when you guys said it was foolish to not spend all your money in this profession in 2006 because there was a pilot shortage.
Anyway, have fun to deal with your bank now....feed them more....:-)
Here more hope for you
, from fly gosh. This guy is right....stop to dream and go uni,As usual, since this is the new year, a lot of you asked me whether should you invest money on a type rating, pilot Jobs outlook for 2013 and beyond and any slots or vacancies coming up.
> I will start with the pilot industry. Bear in mind that this is solely base on my own opinion since I hire them and know first hand info on whats happening behind the scenes.
>
> Pay to fly will be the de facto method use by airlines especially “some “ low cost carriers to hire new pilots. It use to be only paying for the type rating but certain airlines are asking you to pay right from zero hours. Jetstar and Tiger airways are some of the airline who practise that. You can see the info here Jetstar Cadet Pilot and Cadet Pilot - Tiger Airways.
>
> I know everyone hate it but sadly, that is how the industry will be and is here to stay. But before you complain, you must understand the reason behind it. Oil prices are soaring and as I am typing this, many airlines especially the European region are closing down or going bankrupt.
>
> Airlines will find whatever ways to cut cost and asking pilots to pay is one of them. The second reason is to protect themselves. In Indonesia for example, it use to be free and their rating paid for but a lot of expat abuse the system. Once they get the rating and hours, they just ran away to their home country. We all know that ratings are not cheap and always remember that an airline is to make money, not a free school offering you scholarship and lose money in the end.
>
> So before you complain, put yourself in the airline’s shoe and imagine yourself as the boss. However the good news is if you are a local citizen, normally you will still be sponsored though it is changing now. For example, malindo has been reported in the news asking all new hired pilots to pay for their rating and line training even though they are locals. You can read about it here .
>
> In the eyes of the airline, it’s a win win situation. They get to save cost and you get to gain experience.
>
> A lot of people accuse that pay to fly pilots are rich kids who are useless and can’t fly. In my personal opinion, I do not think that is the case. There are simply not enough slots for jobless pilot and obviously not everyone can be invited. I know because at the moment I have 4000+ pilots in my database and some are really good pilots, just that they never have the chance to be invited. Like some of you mention to me, “certain” sponsored students got in because of their connection and race and not base on their capability.
>
> One point I want to make is, I am not justifying pay to fly and I hate it too. After all, who doesn’t want free lunch? But this is how the industry is now and no point complaining on things which is beyond our control and focus on things which are within our control that I am sure all of you will agree.
>
> Let’s move on to aircraft rating. Majority of you ask me whether is it better to take a B737 or A320 rating. I would say go for whatever aircraft that you like to fly ( unless there is a job guaranteed after you obtain the rating ). If you prefer airbus you take airbus and vice versa. As for me, it doesn’t matter what aircraft type so long I get to fly and I am lucky to be flying a boeing jet today. Both rating are marketable especially in Indonesia since we have so many B737 and A320 operators here.
>
> Now let’s go to the important topic of pilot job outlook for 2013 and beyond as that is the biggest headache for the entire thousands of jobless pilot out there. We all read that there is a pilot shortage and there is a need for hundreds of thousands of pilot in the coming years. Honestly, I think all that is bullsh*t.
>
> If journalists are not paid to write rosy stuff, who will enrol into flying school or TRTO to get rating? All their business will collapse. Like i have mention earlier, plenty of airlines are closing down especially in the European region and the market is flooded with experience pilots with thousands of hours. I am getting so many resume from experience pilot and even they themselves are finding a hard time to get a job.
>
> The latest casualties are from Singapore Airlines. You can read the news here. Captain are asked to take unpaid ( read no salary) leave and if a major airline like Singapore Airline, one of the most biggest and profitable airline in the world can do this, you have an idea how the smaller ones will survive in this tough industry.
>
> That is why there is the pay to fly thing going on, is either they save cost and get some pilots flying, or close down and no pilot jobs at all.
>
> They mention that airlines are ordering many aircraft and new planes hence the need for extra pilots, of course they will be extra slots but with so many experience pilot flooding the pilot, where are the jobs for freshies? Plus like the case of Malaysian Airlines, yes they are getting many new planes but they are also retiring many old plane and have excess pilots now. Even then their excess pilots are being send to fly in Indonesia as secondment. Another example is Silk Air which intends to replace all their A320 with B737.
>
> Also bear in mind that the new orders of hundred of aircraft is not coming in overnight and it may take few years before they can be delivered.
>
> The good news is, we have upcoming slots for CPL/low hour and also those rated with zero hours on type. But the number of slots is getting smaller and smaller as in the last few years, so many foreign pilots fill up all the vacancies in Indonesia. It use to be a common thing to fly to Indonesia and go directly to the airline office to get a job. Now at this point of time, that is not possible anymore and wasting your time and money unless you have connection or know someone inside.
>
> But the amount of jobless pilots keep increase daily with them graduating almost every month from flying school around the world. I still remember it takes me few weeks to get a recruitment event to be filled up last time, today I only need few hours before we are fully booked.
>
> I know what I am saying above is not really a good piece of news especially for the start of the year since everyone love to hear rosy and beautiful painted story that there are tons of job around. I am not saying there are none, just that it is limited and it is becoming a challenge to get your first airline job especially for freshies. Some says that it is important to stay positive which is true but I suggest you want to add a thing called “reality”. Staying positive and being reality is too different thing. That is exactly why so many invest a lot of money in their CPL and rating and end up jobless. Remember, nobody put a gun in your head and you can only blame yourself for not doing your research and being ignorant.
>
> I am not saying don’t do it since like myself, no matter whether the industry is good or not I will still chose to become a pilot as I can’t imagine myself doing any other jobs. It’s a challenge and I waited 2 years after flying school before I got my first job. So if I can do it, so can you. In fact as all of you know by now, I am giving people the opportunity to become a pilot , something which I have never imagine I will do so since I was once in your shoe, a jobless pilot knocking doors around the world looking for opportunity. I am not blowing my horn here but today I have to politely decline offers and seriously life can turn out to be awesome when you least expect it ! ( provided you have a positive mindset and take action ).
>
> What I wrote above may not please some of you, after all we can’t please everyone right?. Look you can complain and procrastinate which in my dictionary, that is wasting time and a pilot job can never drop down from the sky or you can chose to take action under whatever circumstances and make the best out of it. Honestly, if I can, I will invite everyone ( 4000+ in my database ) and hope all of you become a pilot. But you and I know that is not possible as there are limited slots. Their first priority is always their own local citizens first. Just like Malindo, their newly recruited pilots must all be 100% Malaysian. That’s why the best way is to try your home country airline first if that is possible.
>
> For those of you who are considering taking up piloting as a career, make sure you have done your research and have all the financials in place. It’s an awesome career and worth every effort to be where I am today. Also, please consider taking up a university degree before you embark your career as a pilot. I spend 4 years in university before I fly and it is important to use your degree as a backup in case ( touch wood ) your pilot career fail or “yet” to take off !
>
Last edited by Feedmemore; 12th Jan 2013 at 09:07.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: titan
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
shaunryder:
I dont have a desk job and get 3 weeks off out of every 5 weeks and get paid more than a pilot. Also dont have to do traffic jams or anything else to do with a normal 9-5 job as my job is not like that, but it is far better on the whole than the aviation industry. Dont make assumptions that there is no other job out there better than being a pilot. Its not about not being able to hack it as a pilot, its about not wanting to hack my way through life as a pilot.
I dont have a desk job and get 3 weeks off out of every 5 weeks and get paid more than a pilot. Also dont have to do traffic jams or anything else to do with a normal 9-5 job as my job is not like that, but it is far better on the whole than the aviation industry. Dont make assumptions that there is no other job out there better than being a pilot. Its not about not being able to hack it as a pilot, its about not wanting to hack my way through life as a pilot.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: titan
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
seamaster:I got a PFO from monarch and wasnt prepared to wait around in the industry hoping for something else to come up, but have to agree that theres one or two gems still out there but for how long! Luckily my other job has no commute and if it did would be a real drag too!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
250h is not 10,000h and 4000h AP cruise time is not 250h hands on time
Aircraft have become "simpler to fly" but more complex in how the automation can fail. The biggest killer of passengers and crew in Western Jets according to western jet maker Boeing is Pilot Loss of Control. Around 2000 people are no longer with us over a ten year period:
www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf
Interestingly the alarming rise in Upset incidents has co-incided with the reduction in flying experienced required to gain a CPL/frozen ATPL.
Airmanship has been lost and it is significant that one of the most respected airlines in the EU with it's own "top grade/integrated JAR" training course put two JAR cadet pilots at the helm of an A330 that ended up still in flyable condition in the South Atlantic with the loss of all 228 on board - most of us know the sad tale of AF447.
Yes they had 1000s of Airbus hours (in the cruise) but very little experience beforehand - It was exactly the kind of course that CTC, OAA and others sell to individuals wishing to follow an "integrated" approach. In fact the AF course was better - it had a proper job at the end of it and the students did not face the huge financial pressures we hear of here.
However,this A330 FO and SO did not have military style training where even at 15h an Army student can recover from an Incipient Spin, or a few sorties later be able to cope with a low level bird strike or a low level abort into IMC with a stuck throttle.
Unlike their Captain who was asleep in the rear of the A330, they had no significant GA background - one had flown a glider a couple of times but how many years ago is not mentioned in the BEA report. So they went from less than 200h course straight into one of the most automated jets in history - the A320. A few years later an abbreviated conversion onto the A330 with even less sectors and opportunities for hands on flying.
Their aeronautical knowledge left much to be desired - particularly regarding high altitude flight - something the regulators never checked apart from the initial ATPL multiple guess papers they sat at over 10 years before.
Their CRM was hugely lacking - after stalling the aircraft they ignored the warnings and did not cross check understanding. Indeed, when the stall warner gave up and the Captain re-appeared, they failed to tell him what had happened - so he was out of the loop entirely.
Now look at other EU airlines and those that employ the most cadets. Apart from Lufthansa (which trains it's cadets alongside Luftwaffe trainees in the USA before a Twin Jet IR in Germany), most use the "big" schools like CTC, OAA etc. This means self funding all the way. And that also means there is a large element of "self selection".
Sadly some integrated course flying instructors have been shocked by the lack of desire for hands on flying that many Integrated students have - many just want the shiny suit and jet job image they are "entitled to" having paid £120k or more getting through the hoops/ticking the boxes. Some are downright scared of flying a light aircraft or practising stall recovery.
These schools have, to their credit, introduced an element of Upset recovery to the new MPL being promoted. However, the MPL trains co-pilots - and it can be legally done with just 70h of real flying. No one dies in the SIM - its just a computer game. So these cadets are being ripped off as they are not given the chance to develop real airmanship - like what to do with a nose wheel shimmy on take off or a fuel leak or weather closing in on their solo x-country trip. And paying passengers are underpaying the real cost of flying without realising the lack of real world flying experience in the front seats.
EZY now has crews that are perfectly competent when things are going right - with no other background than what the A330 crew had plus a few more debts. Total time up front lower than 4000h - of which probably 400h were hands on. You only have to read the concerns in CHIRP to know things aren't right.
www.chirp.co.uk/downloads/ATFB/ATFB101.pdf
Across the atlantic we had Colgan Q400 crash. Colgan 3407. The Captain was P2F before joining Colgan - he paid to fly pax on a B1900. His co-pilot was a fair wx instructor with minimal night/IMC time. They operated on LoCo budgets - the FO's pay was less than an airport toilet cleaner's.
http://www.operationorange.org/colganQ&A.pdf
Result? 50 more people no longer with us.
Most US jet carrier require a min of 700h. Congress want that to be 1500h - there are arguments both ways. But 700h UK CPL route weeded out a lot of no flyers - it took perseverance - some took 8 years to get a well paid flying job. But that kind of tenacity and resilience is a large part of taking a longer view and not rushing youngsters into cockpits - we are not fighting the Battle of Britain - young life is not that expendable and neither are pax's lives.
The current UK Pilot Training System is failing the student and reducing fllght safety for airline pax.
OOA's Anthony Petteford is right to be concerned by the apparent lack of Pilot mentoring by airlines. The MPL has it's place but it requires a rethink - particulary of the confidence building solo time and apprenticeship areas. Cadets are not necessarily being trained to the highest possible standard, rather to a minimum regulatory standard with minimal course flexibilty due to high costs and an unwillingness for some schools to change. In addition the modular route is seen as a second class citizen.
Now the CAA looks set to make life even harder (financially) for the latter by mandating further cost on the individual who is not MPL approved through a JOC. Given previous studies such as the Cranfield University FORCE (investigation into Type Rating training and manual flying skills) and ICATEE / RAeS concerns over airline piloting skills, something more than just an MPL or modular plus JOC is needed.
We need still aviators not just ticks in the right boxes:
Ref: US Airways 1549: A320 Hudson ditching: Was Capt Sullenberger an MPL? Did he have a GA background in gliding? Did he fly for the Military?
US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ref: QF32 Qantas A380 engine and system failures: How much experience was in the front seats?
From the RAeS interview: "Captain David Evans is a Senior Check Captain at Qantas with some 32 years of experience and 17,000hrs of flight time. At the time of the incident he was in one of the observers’ seat, and thus had a ring-side view of the drama as it unfolded. The other flight deck crew were Richard de Crespigny (Pilot in Command, 15,000hrs), Harry Wubben (Route Check Captain, 20,000hrs) Matt Hicks (First Officer, 11,000hrs and Mark Johnson (Second Officer 8,000hrs). With the Cabin Service Manager (Michael Von Reth) this team boasted some 140 years of experience and over 71,000 flight hrs – a significant factor in the successful outcome of the incident."
A radical aeronautically based rethink on both training and recruitment is required.
The alternative is almost unthinkable.
www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf
Interestingly the alarming rise in Upset incidents has co-incided with the reduction in flying experienced required to gain a CPL/frozen ATPL.
Airmanship has been lost and it is significant that one of the most respected airlines in the EU with it's own "top grade/integrated JAR" training course put two JAR cadet pilots at the helm of an A330 that ended up still in flyable condition in the South Atlantic with the loss of all 228 on board - most of us know the sad tale of AF447.
Yes they had 1000s of Airbus hours (in the cruise) but very little experience beforehand - It was exactly the kind of course that CTC, OAA and others sell to individuals wishing to follow an "integrated" approach. In fact the AF course was better - it had a proper job at the end of it and the students did not face the huge financial pressures we hear of here.
However,this A330 FO and SO did not have military style training where even at 15h an Army student can recover from an Incipient Spin, or a few sorties later be able to cope with a low level bird strike or a low level abort into IMC with a stuck throttle.
Unlike their Captain who was asleep in the rear of the A330, they had no significant GA background - one had flown a glider a couple of times but how many years ago is not mentioned in the BEA report. So they went from less than 200h course straight into one of the most automated jets in history - the A320. A few years later an abbreviated conversion onto the A330 with even less sectors and opportunities for hands on flying.
Their aeronautical knowledge left much to be desired - particularly regarding high altitude flight - something the regulators never checked apart from the initial ATPL multiple guess papers they sat at over 10 years before.
Their CRM was hugely lacking - after stalling the aircraft they ignored the warnings and did not cross check understanding. Indeed, when the stall warner gave up and the Captain re-appeared, they failed to tell him what had happened - so he was out of the loop entirely.
Now look at other EU airlines and those that employ the most cadets. Apart from Lufthansa (which trains it's cadets alongside Luftwaffe trainees in the USA before a Twin Jet IR in Germany), most use the "big" schools like CTC, OAA etc. This means self funding all the way. And that also means there is a large element of "self selection".
Sadly some integrated course flying instructors have been shocked by the lack of desire for hands on flying that many Integrated students have - many just want the shiny suit and jet job image they are "entitled to" having paid £120k or more getting through the hoops/ticking the boxes. Some are downright scared of flying a light aircraft or practising stall recovery.
These schools have, to their credit, introduced an element of Upset recovery to the new MPL being promoted. However, the MPL trains co-pilots - and it can be legally done with just 70h of real flying. No one dies in the SIM - its just a computer game. So these cadets are being ripped off as they are not given the chance to develop real airmanship - like what to do with a nose wheel shimmy on take off or a fuel leak or weather closing in on their solo x-country trip. And paying passengers are underpaying the real cost of flying without realising the lack of real world flying experience in the front seats.
EZY now has crews that are perfectly competent when things are going right - with no other background than what the A330 crew had plus a few more debts. Total time up front lower than 4000h - of which probably 400h were hands on. You only have to read the concerns in CHIRP to know things aren't right.
www.chirp.co.uk/downloads/ATFB/ATFB101.pdf
Across the atlantic we had Colgan Q400 crash. Colgan 3407. The Captain was P2F before joining Colgan - he paid to fly pax on a B1900. His co-pilot was a fair wx instructor with minimal night/IMC time. They operated on LoCo budgets - the FO's pay was less than an airport toilet cleaner's.
http://www.operationorange.org/colganQ&A.pdf
Result? 50 more people no longer with us.
Most US jet carrier require a min of 700h. Congress want that to be 1500h - there are arguments both ways. But 700h UK CPL route weeded out a lot of no flyers - it took perseverance - some took 8 years to get a well paid flying job. But that kind of tenacity and resilience is a large part of taking a longer view and not rushing youngsters into cockpits - we are not fighting the Battle of Britain - young life is not that expendable and neither are pax's lives.
The current UK Pilot Training System is failing the student and reducing fllght safety for airline pax.
OOA's Anthony Petteford is right to be concerned by the apparent lack of Pilot mentoring by airlines. The MPL has it's place but it requires a rethink - particulary of the confidence building solo time and apprenticeship areas. Cadets are not necessarily being trained to the highest possible standard, rather to a minimum regulatory standard with minimal course flexibilty due to high costs and an unwillingness for some schools to change. In addition the modular route is seen as a second class citizen.
Now the CAA looks set to make life even harder (financially) for the latter by mandating further cost on the individual who is not MPL approved through a JOC. Given previous studies such as the Cranfield University FORCE (investigation into Type Rating training and manual flying skills) and ICATEE / RAeS concerns over airline piloting skills, something more than just an MPL or modular plus JOC is needed.
We need still aviators not just ticks in the right boxes:
Ref: US Airways 1549: A320 Hudson ditching: Was Capt Sullenberger an MPL? Did he have a GA background in gliding? Did he fly for the Military?
US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ref: QF32 Qantas A380 engine and system failures: How much experience was in the front seats?
From the RAeS interview: "Captain David Evans is a Senior Check Captain at Qantas with some 32 years of experience and 17,000hrs of flight time. At the time of the incident he was in one of the observers’ seat, and thus had a ring-side view of the drama as it unfolded. The other flight deck crew were Richard de Crespigny (Pilot in Command, 15,000hrs), Harry Wubben (Route Check Captain, 20,000hrs) Matt Hicks (First Officer, 11,000hrs and Mark Johnson (Second Officer 8,000hrs). With the Cabin Service Manager (Michael Von Reth) this team boasted some 140 years of experience and over 71,000 flight hrs – a significant factor in the successful outcome of the incident."
A radical aeronautically based rethink on both training and recruitment is required.
The alternative is almost unthinkable.
Last edited by angelorange; 16th Jan 2013 at 17:12.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: europe
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok my contribution to this thread.
I'm graduated in 2005. Got a job and have now +2000 hours on bizz jet. Am i happy? No, perspective in the company is nihil. I'm feeling the drive to make progress in my career, keen on learning things in aviation. Im studying in my free time, because i want to improve myself as a pilot. Although, the reality is against it. Wrong age, not the correct typerating etc. Even prepared to fund new rating. Im looking now for 2 years for a new outfit. Without 1 single interview. Yes, yes, now you hear the story of a pilot with some hours and a job. I decided that at the end of the year, if there is no improvement, ill throw the towel. Replacement? No problem,at the ops, there enough guys to pick my job.
It is not on giving up the hope. It is about reality.
I'm graduated in 2005. Got a job and have now +2000 hours on bizz jet. Am i happy? No, perspective in the company is nihil. I'm feeling the drive to make progress in my career, keen on learning things in aviation. Im studying in my free time, because i want to improve myself as a pilot. Although, the reality is against it. Wrong age, not the correct typerating etc. Even prepared to fund new rating. Im looking now for 2 years for a new outfit. Without 1 single interview. Yes, yes, now you hear the story of a pilot with some hours and a job. I decided that at the end of the year, if there is no improvement, ill throw the towel. Replacement? No problem,at the ops, there enough guys to pick my job.
It is not on giving up the hope. It is about reality.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@angelorange
Where are European pilots supposed to get this hands on flying experience to get from 200/250hrs to >700hrs/1500hrs, if they aren't from the military elite or hard core instructors.
SPA ops are few and far between and instructing isn't financially viable, (and not everyone whats to be an instructor, which creates the nasty cycle of generating uninterested hour building instructor and poor quality students). Amassing this many hours might be achievable in USA but not in Europe.
And just because one has tens of thousands of hours of experience doesn't make completely them infallible, complacency? etc.
Look at today's tragic heli incident in London, and there are numerous other incidents I could use to counter your argument.
Personally I'm not convinced that 1) having hundreds of VFR flying hours makes a line pilot safer and 2) (above, say 250 hours) Number of flying hours increases safety proportionally. Its much more complex and there are a much larger number of variables to consider, such as currency, aptitude and knowledge. Experience doesn't always necessarily equate to ability or competence
Above all the number one priority is flight safety, without compromise (this should go without saying) and as an (f)ATPL and prospective FO I would like to think that, if the s**t hit the fan, I would go as far as putting my life on the line for passengers, if required.
Solutions? More demanding aptitude tests, more upset recovery and manual handling on the TR or during sim checks, or making an initial TR course more demanding.
Not all low hour (f)atpl's are Kamikaze, I believe EASA understand the situation in the EU is very different to FAA/USA, (where there are many more options) and this is why the regulations haven't changed. And with the greatest of respect, I hope your wrong.
By the way, could you please quote where the CAA have stated JOC will be required in the future?
Where are European pilots supposed to get this hands on flying experience to get from 200/250hrs to >700hrs/1500hrs, if they aren't from the military elite or hard core instructors.
SPA ops are few and far between and instructing isn't financially viable, (and not everyone whats to be an instructor, which creates the nasty cycle of generating uninterested hour building instructor and poor quality students). Amassing this many hours might be achievable in USA but not in Europe.
And just because one has tens of thousands of hours of experience doesn't make completely them infallible, complacency? etc.
Look at today's tragic heli incident in London, and there are numerous other incidents I could use to counter your argument.
Personally I'm not convinced that 1) having hundreds of VFR flying hours makes a line pilot safer and 2) (above, say 250 hours) Number of flying hours increases safety proportionally. Its much more complex and there are a much larger number of variables to consider, such as currency, aptitude and knowledge. Experience doesn't always necessarily equate to ability or competence
Above all the number one priority is flight safety, without compromise (this should go without saying) and as an (f)ATPL and prospective FO I would like to think that, if the s**t hit the fan, I would go as far as putting my life on the line for passengers, if required.
Solutions? More demanding aptitude tests, more upset recovery and manual handling on the TR or during sim checks, or making an initial TR course more demanding.
Not all low hour (f)atpl's are Kamikaze, I believe EASA understand the situation in the EU is very different to FAA/USA, (where there are many more options) and this is why the regulations haven't changed. And with the greatest of respect, I hope your wrong.
By the way, could you please quote where the CAA have stated JOC will be required in the future?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its tough out there - who said it would be easy?
Dear PEN
Pl read my comments carefully. Hopefully it'll be clear that I am not against low hour pilots at all. After all most Mil guys have around 400h before they are front line. The original BA scheme was good in that cadets often flew in 3 crew L1011 Tristars or on ATP TPs before going onto SH 2 crew jets. Lufthansa scheme also good.
However, I completely disagree with the idea that the EU is somehow a special case - we have plenty of opportunities to fly but the greed of the integrated only and low hr JAR courses leaves GA in the doldrums - a self fulfilling prophesy.
How on earth did airlines cope in the 1990s? They took Flying instructors and Glider Tow pilots. Have you looked into Fisheries patrol in your search for flying experience? Have you investigated Calibration flying (MoTs for ILS/Radar etc)? Have you spent 6 months in Maun Botswana trying to get Bush Pilot time?
I am against the system that rips young wanabees off, provides minimal training at extortionate prices and at the same time denies careers to experienced pilots in favour of P2F / MPL only or Flexicrew.
I happen to teach military pilots and it is all about aptitude not ability to pay for training. These guys put their lives on the line everyday for your civil safety in the most inhospitible places on the planet. Many of their colleagues (some of them former students I knew) have paid the ultimate price for our democratic freedoms.
If you are resilient you WILL find a way to build flying experience and gain valuable insights into airmanship whether its in a towing a Glider or flying one, or working for a TP airline. Some have taken shares in aircraft to build time. Each and every trip can be useful. So what if it takes you ten years to get 700h.
The fact is there are way too many low houred pilots out there and the numbers produced in the UK alone are around 1000 frozen ATPLs per annum. Someone is lying about the availability of jobs. In a recession, fast courses lead to nowhere fast.
In addition, experienced pilots cannot get a look into airlines like EZY because they only take MPL / Flexicrew or in rare cases those with over 500h on a specific type. With the demise of GA comes the demise of chats with chief pilots over a cuppa/beer and in comes HR, online forms, silly requirements, Compass tests, and fees upon fees.
This means an airline like Flybe has a huge number of pilots who are stuck on a career ladder that has been blocked by the LoCo low hour model.
The Q400 captains can't get a job on a jet because they only take 200h cadet who will pay or catch 22 time on type. Meanwhile the Q400 FO cant become Captains. And just over their shoulders are the MPL FOs who the company bring in as cheaper labour - so I feel for those Flybe FOs right now. Unless the likes of Emirates recognise 1000h heavy TP time there will be no change.
The fact is 1000h heavy TP time in busy EU airspace and bumpier Wx and more levers than any LH jet pilot has to cope with does build valuable airmanship - the rest can be learned on the B777 TR and study of high speed / high alt flight and climatology.
I wish to see a return to an apprenticeship scheme where low zero to hero schemes are replaced with 2+ years on TP then onto A319 etc. Pilots are employed on ability to fly not ability to pay.
The LOC requirement is post AF447 and discussed in Flight Global magazine last year.
Hopefully we are all brave enough to put our lives on the line for our pax - but having 200h and staight into a automated jet that is on fire or a captain that has gone hypoxic - or like the guy next to the RYR Capt who had just lost his son and made an unstable approach into Rome - Without other experiences to fall back on - what would the low hour guy do if fatigue blew the roof off first class?
So many have been poorly instructed or read useless pass the pilot interview crib sheets - just ask about mach buffet or how to recover a JAR25 a/c from a stall.
In some cases it is the young pilot's fault - they should know better, but mostly I blame the system we now have.
Oh and by the way I never set out to become a flying instructor but some studes seem to think in doing so I did them a favour ! So if you really want to know something try teaching it!
Pl read my comments carefully. Hopefully it'll be clear that I am not against low hour pilots at all. After all most Mil guys have around 400h before they are front line. The original BA scheme was good in that cadets often flew in 3 crew L1011 Tristars or on ATP TPs before going onto SH 2 crew jets. Lufthansa scheme also good.
However, I completely disagree with the idea that the EU is somehow a special case - we have plenty of opportunities to fly but the greed of the integrated only and low hr JAR courses leaves GA in the doldrums - a self fulfilling prophesy.
How on earth did airlines cope in the 1990s? They took Flying instructors and Glider Tow pilots. Have you looked into Fisheries patrol in your search for flying experience? Have you investigated Calibration flying (MoTs for ILS/Radar etc)? Have you spent 6 months in Maun Botswana trying to get Bush Pilot time?
I am against the system that rips young wanabees off, provides minimal training at extortionate prices and at the same time denies careers to experienced pilots in favour of P2F / MPL only or Flexicrew.
I happen to teach military pilots and it is all about aptitude not ability to pay for training. These guys put their lives on the line everyday for your civil safety in the most inhospitible places on the planet. Many of their colleagues (some of them former students I knew) have paid the ultimate price for our democratic freedoms.
If you are resilient you WILL find a way to build flying experience and gain valuable insights into airmanship whether its in a towing a Glider or flying one, or working for a TP airline. Some have taken shares in aircraft to build time. Each and every trip can be useful. So what if it takes you ten years to get 700h.
The fact is there are way too many low houred pilots out there and the numbers produced in the UK alone are around 1000 frozen ATPLs per annum. Someone is lying about the availability of jobs. In a recession, fast courses lead to nowhere fast.
In addition, experienced pilots cannot get a look into airlines like EZY because they only take MPL / Flexicrew or in rare cases those with over 500h on a specific type. With the demise of GA comes the demise of chats with chief pilots over a cuppa/beer and in comes HR, online forms, silly requirements, Compass tests, and fees upon fees.
This means an airline like Flybe has a huge number of pilots who are stuck on a career ladder that has been blocked by the LoCo low hour model.
The Q400 captains can't get a job on a jet because they only take 200h cadet who will pay or catch 22 time on type. Meanwhile the Q400 FO cant become Captains. And just over their shoulders are the MPL FOs who the company bring in as cheaper labour - so I feel for those Flybe FOs right now. Unless the likes of Emirates recognise 1000h heavy TP time there will be no change.
The fact is 1000h heavy TP time in busy EU airspace and bumpier Wx and more levers than any LH jet pilot has to cope with does build valuable airmanship - the rest can be learned on the B777 TR and study of high speed / high alt flight and climatology.
I wish to see a return to an apprenticeship scheme where low zero to hero schemes are replaced with 2+ years on TP then onto A319 etc. Pilots are employed on ability to fly not ability to pay.
The LOC requirement is post AF447 and discussed in Flight Global magazine last year.
Hopefully we are all brave enough to put our lives on the line for our pax - but having 200h and staight into a automated jet that is on fire or a captain that has gone hypoxic - or like the guy next to the RYR Capt who had just lost his son and made an unstable approach into Rome - Without other experiences to fall back on - what would the low hour guy do if fatigue blew the roof off first class?
So many have been poorly instructed or read useless pass the pilot interview crib sheets - just ask about mach buffet or how to recover a JAR25 a/c from a stall.
In some cases it is the young pilot's fault - they should know better, but mostly I blame the system we now have.
Oh and by the way I never set out to become a flying instructor but some studes seem to think in doing so I did them a favour ! So if you really want to know something try teaching it!
Last edited by angelorange; 16th Jan 2013 at 22:05.
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Uk
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no job for everybody, this is why this industry can set their own rules like 500h on type before to apply for an interview,
Even if you land a job on a jet , for how long, 6 months? 12 months? Then they show you the door and the long looking for a new job' struggle starts again.!
All my friend tell me they have a job for now but have no idea what will happen to them if their company go out of business or redundancy.
So, spending a couple of hundred thousand euro in a eu license with no future and no guaranty of job in the long term is in my point a foolish plan reserved only for the kid who have no idea how in dee s...t they will finish.
Look west for your career.
Even if you land a job on a jet , for how long, 6 months? 12 months? Then they show you the door and the long looking for a new job' struggle starts again.!
All my friend tell me they have a job for now but have no idea what will happen to them if their company go out of business or redundancy.
So, spending a couple of hundred thousand euro in a eu license with no future and no guaranty of job in the long term is in my point a foolish plan reserved only for the kid who have no idea how in dee s...t they will finish.
Look west for your career.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: huj
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This topic raises it's head perennially, unsurprisingly as people reach their nadir and consider their future. I can relate to it. But in fact I persisted beyond all reasonableness. Never quite giving up but no longer pursuing it.
In the end what pushed me back into flying was a truly terrible job which I quit with the intention of renewing my licence and ratings and become a flight Instructor. Yes there are worse jobs than being a pilot. I had the pleasure of telling them I was quitting to become a pilot without actually believing it too much. But less than a year later I had the sheer pleasure of overflying the building rather lower than neccessary in my employer's aeroplane. I never did become a Flight Instructor though.
Ironically I almost fell into the job, not least thanks to several pilots who came out of the current training system minus the basic airmanship and flying skills who were soon shown the door before they killed themselves or someone else.
Since then any illusions I had left were well and truly chipped away and the job such as it is became something of a chore at times. Not to mention low paid.
But in a supreme case of irony. I find myself in a position to either give wannabees a chance or kill it for them. So naturally I come across many of the issues mentioned in this thread. This time from the inside.
I see a lot of wannabee pilots and always give them the time of day if I can but many do themselves no favours. No one wants to hear your sob story. Mine is better! Sometime they tell how long they've been looking for work and honestly you can see why.
The best candidates always stand out. There is a 'right' type of personality, couple that with the right flying skills and you have a winner and that's the problem. Some of them can't actually fly properly. It's not just lack of experience. It's the basics. Not their fault, most of the time.
There are a couple of people lined up for this year. Right place, right time for them. If they fit in they will get their chance and end up disliking the job as much as I do. But they'll have their start and if they're lucky again they'll end up moving on to bigger if not neccessarily better things like several previous pilots.
Incidentally five or six years waiting is not remarkable. Many of my contemporaries took that long or longer to get the magic airline job. It really depends on ongoing market conditions. As I see it the current situation is the norm. The days of walking into jobs straight out of flight school are gone for now. But there is one difference between them and many of the current crop. They kept flying, some as full time Instructors, others as part time and more glider towing, skydiving etc. They didn't just renew their licences and ratings periodically. They actually loved flying for flying sake.
Maybe there's a lesson in that.
In the end what pushed me back into flying was a truly terrible job which I quit with the intention of renewing my licence and ratings and become a flight Instructor. Yes there are worse jobs than being a pilot. I had the pleasure of telling them I was quitting to become a pilot without actually believing it too much. But less than a year later I had the sheer pleasure of overflying the building rather lower than neccessary in my employer's aeroplane.
I never did become a Flight Instructor though.Ironically I almost fell into the job, not least thanks to several pilots who came out of the current training system minus the basic airmanship and flying skills who were soon shown the door before they killed themselves or someone else.
Since then any illusions I had left were well and truly chipped away and the job such as it is became something of a chore at times. Not to mention low paid.
But in a supreme case of irony. I find myself in a position to either give wannabees a chance or kill it for them. So naturally I come across many of the issues mentioned in this thread. This time from the inside.
I see a lot of wannabee pilots and always give them the time of day if I can but many do themselves no favours. No one wants to hear your sob story. Mine is better! Sometime they tell how long they've been looking for work and honestly you can see why.
The best candidates always stand out. There is a 'right' type of personality, couple that with the right flying skills and you have a winner and that's the problem. Some of them can't actually fly properly. It's not just lack of experience. It's the basics. Not their fault, most of the time.
There are a couple of people lined up for this year. Right place, right time for them. If they fit in they will get their chance and end up disliking the job as much as I do. But they'll have their start and if they're lucky again they'll end up moving on to bigger if not neccessarily better things like several previous pilots.
Incidentally five or six years waiting is not remarkable. Many of my contemporaries took that long or longer to get the magic airline job. It really depends on ongoing market conditions. As I see it the current situation is the norm. The days of walking into jobs straight out of flight school are gone for now. But there is one difference between them and many of the current crop. They kept flying, some as full time Instructors, others as part time and more glider towing, skydiving etc. They didn't just renew their licences and ratings periodically. They actually loved flying for flying sake.
Maybe there's a lesson in that.