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British Airways Future Pilot Programme.

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British Airways Future Pilot Programme.

Old 4th Mar 2013, 09:49
  #741 (permalink)  
 
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I gave this program some consideration last year, however decided against as I felt it too risky. To those who didn't make the final cut and those who do please think carefully about the below.

British Airways and its parent company have severe financial problems. It has a huge pension fund deficit and its bonds are rated as junk. Its parent company is losing a billion Euros a year and could potentially take British Airways down with it. Analysts have referred to British Airways as a “Pension Fund with Wings” such is its pension fund deficit.

If British Airways ceases trading or you get made redundant then you still have to pay back the 100k loan. Even if you or your parents have not guaranteed the loan against a property and British Airways has acted as a guarantor then you are still responsible in all cases.

As a new cadet you will enter the short haul fleet for at least the first 5 years, short haul currently does not turn a profit. In the Analyst call transcript it states “We're going to move on now to my last slide, which is about short haul. Now, we know that short haul needs to be profitable in its own right. That's absolutely clear.” British Airways has in the past sold off parts of its short haul network and I have no doubt that they would do so again if they could still feed the long haul network. Would you still have the same enthusiasm if the short haul was sold to FLYBE, Easyjet or Ryanair ?

British Airways requires that you take out life insurance to cover them for the bond. I take this to mean it doesn't want to have to pay your bond back if you die before its finished. Doesn't give you a warm fuzzy feeling does it?

Those who do make the cut are given a “conditional employment contract“, but there is no mention of the conditions. Do you have to get 100% in ground school exams? Does British Airways have to be profitable? Do the 787 battery problems need to be fixed so they can expand?

There has also been a succession of law breaking at British Airways. Virgin dirty tricks (read the book if you have not), fuel surcharge collusion, freight pricing collusion. It wasn't that long ago that British Airways was threatened with a fine for flying a 747 across the atlantic with only 3 engines functioning: British Airways Flight 268 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Labour relations seem to be awful. If you have not read the thread on here dating back to the Openskies dispute, then you should. 90% of Union members voted, of which 86% voted to strike. The end result was the British Airways Pilots getting humiliated in court as they had no legal basis for striking. The legacy cabin crew do not have a great relationship with the pilots. The mixed fleet cabin crew contract is an example of what British Airways can do to split its employee groups to lower costs, then make redundant the higher cost employees.

This quote summed up to me why I don’t want to work at British Airways: “Some people who have dealt with me have said that I can be unreasonable. And I'm disappointed, actually, that it's only some people who say that.” That’s a direct quote from Willy Walsh and if he wants to instill that culture in IAG and British Airways, I don’t want to be part of it.

I am in a secure well paid job, but my passion for flying could not overcome the huge risk that joining this program would entail. I wish everyone the best of luck, but before you sign you should consider all of the above.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 03:58
  #742 (permalink)  
 
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I don't even know how to respond to that.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 07:05
  #743 (permalink)  
 
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Skittles,

You're not the only one...., but it is, seemingly, hatchet's first post so maybe we should cut him/her some slack, and assume they're a glass half empty rather than a glass half full kind of person.

hatchet

Like you I could trawl through the media for a few stories about an airline and then post similar dire warnings...especially if I wanted to put off the opposition, had an axe to grind or simply wanted to indulge in a bit of mischief making...

I'll leave the detailed financial stuff to someone better qualified, but I would say that IMHO for whatever reason you're painting an overly pessimistic, slightly extreme picture of IAGs/BA position:

As to a couple of your other points:

There has also been a succession of law breaking at British Airways.
I'm not condoning BA's behaviour in the cases but why single them out - are you perhaps trying to imply that all other airline's are squeaky clean? Do you remember which UK airline was also involved in some questionable behaviour/law breaking, along with BA, and then indulged in a bit of whistle blowing TCTA? In other areas (e.g.basing policy, passenger's rights) some other airlines seem to be perpetually fighting and sometimes losing, relatively low level legal cases, they win some, they lose some, so I suppose by definition they also "law break".

The legacy cabin crew do not have a great relationship with the pilots.
Interesting you brought that one up - what are your sources for saying so? Please don't believe for one minute the nonsense and spin you see posted elsewhere on Pprune by one or two individuals, who may or may not have been Union reps, who are still desperately trying to fan the embers of a dead industrial dispute. In reality most legacy cabin crew are a pleasure to work with and socialise with. That said if the idea of dealing with legacy fleet is still a cause for concern then remember their numbers are in decline as Mixed Fleet grows in size. By the time the FPP'ers hit the line legacy fleet will probably make up a minority of the cabin crew workforce.

Given you obviously don't recommend working for BA which paragon of virtue/financially 100% secure airline would you recommend people do apply to?

FWIW my own POV, based on over 35 years in aviation, the majority in BA, is that whilst I don't want my own offspring going into flying at all if they do insist on doing so then the BA FPP is probably the only decent deal in town at the moment.

Last edited by wiggy; 7th Mar 2013 at 07:37.
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Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:58
  #744 (permalink)  
 
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The legacy cabin crew do not have a great relationship with the pilots.
Well, there were 14 of us out last night for a rather pleasant meal and conversation. So I don't know where that little gem has come from.

Ironically both sets of CC are an absolute pleasure to fly with. With the sad events of the IA behind us I can categorically say that the atmosphere on the aircraft is possibly the best it has been for many, many years.

Everyone loves to mention the pensions deficit quoting facts from 6-7 years ago. Since then IAG has increased payments into the scheme. APS is slowly disappearing, NAPS members have had to increase their contributions for a lower pay out and the company has introduced BARP for new joiners, a money purchase scheme. The upshot of all of this is that the pensions plan is looking very healthy into the future.

Short Haul has recently (post BMI integration) increased productivity with the overall aim of turning profit by 2015. Whilst many seem happy to slander the 'unprofitability' of SH they don't grasp the funding concepts behind a feeder system. The movement of Airbus to Gatwick this year should see an improvement in their productivity as the increase in airframes will allow a greater flexibility of route structure as more airframes means less time for each one needing to 'touch' Gatwick for the slots. Chances of SH being 'sold off', very, very slim. IAG want continuity of product.

Law breaking? There are few major international companies that don't push the boundaries. Remember that the partner for the Atlantic scheme gained immunity from prosecution by blowing the whistle. Also back filled EU legislation has been responsible for some of the negative press about operations. It shouldn't go on but it does. Fly to Africa and see how far a pious attitude gets you.

“Some people who have dealt with me have said that I can be unreasonable. And I'm disappointed, actually, that it's only some people who say that.”
I have spoken to Willie Walsh on several occasions and he is a very competent CEO. His job is to bring profitability to the board and a dividend to the investors. He isn't in it to be Mr Popular. I would suggest that other CEO's of blue chip companies would be exactly the same.

but my passion for flying could not overcome the huge risk that joining this program would entail
Your choice but many of the 'facts' you posted are either old and outdated or put with a controversial touch. Things in the company are most definitely not how you would lead people to believe them to be.

Enjoy!
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 08:29
  #745 (permalink)  
 
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True, there are some nice crew out there but having nice meals and drinks out with the crew? Get real!
NM

No idea what goes on with Euro fleet but it does still happen on long haul.

Last edited by wiggy; 7th Mar 2013 at 11:29.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 09:02
  #746 (permalink)  
 
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Northern Monkey,

Come on wirb.. Not sure which planet you live on but you'd have to be completely blind to reality to think everything was hunky dory between pilots and cabin crew at BA.
What an absolutely ludicrous reply. Were you there? No. So how can you possibly comment? I don't know what short haul is like these days, it's a a long time since I was on it but I do remember that a lot of crew just went to bed as the turn around times were so short.

True, there are some nice crew out there but having nice meals and drinks out with the crew? Get real!
Excuse me? Obviously a large table full of people enjoying a meal was a figment of my imagination, perhaps I should mention it to the doctors at my next medical.

Don't spout rubbish if you have no knowledge of the fleet you are spouting about. SH is a different kettle of fish to LH. LH was, traditionally, the strong hold of BASSA, I've seen that fundamentally change over the past 2 years. Hence my post.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 10:00
  #747 (permalink)  
 
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The biggest problem on SH is that you do not carry the same crew on all sectors and run a day 'as a crew'. It used to be done that way at LGW but never at fortress Heathrow.

Therefore, with 3/4 different crews a day, it can be difficult to get any form of social bonding going on. The sectors are busy and the nightstops are short. As flight crew we generally go out for a drink for a bit of a wind down. The crew don't tend to as they want to save allowances or just sleep. I saw it for years on SH and I wouldn't call myself a difficult person either.

The difference is that this was never down to the dispute of a few years ago, this was always there. On LH however there was a far more distinct 'them and us' feeling, especially when you got active Union crews together. In some respects this was fuelled by the company with the increase in perceived importance that the CSD was given. Even so far as to contemplating making the CSD the second in command many years ago.

My point was to counter a sweeping generalisation that things are strained between the CC and the FC. This is fundamentally wrong. The atmosphere, especially now that the power of BASSA has dissipated, is far more pleasant then it has been for the past decades on the LH fleets. You will always get the occasional one who wants to remain apart, that's their choice but in general it has been a big improvement.

If you haven't been on the LH fleets of old you wouldn't understand just how difficult they used to be.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 12:07
  #748 (permalink)  
 
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Many thanks for your replies, it is interesting to get your perspectives.

I do think however we share a common purpose. I am sure you do not want to see the terms and conditions in your industry further eroded by an influx in supply of pilots willing to work for free or a very low salary. You may not think that this affects your position at British Airways, however i am convinced it does.

Therefore when potential wanabees like me step back and do not accept to be burdened with 100k of debt to be paid a salary of 21k a year it also benefits you. The end result would force airlines to at the very least pay for training and preferably earn a living wage salary during it. If trainee doctors, atc, lawyers and train drivers can benefit from this, then I dont see why pilots can't too.

The end result would be a more capable pilot workforce who were selected on ability alone, not those who can afford to live without a salary for 18 month. I appreciate British Airways is not as far along the exploitation scale as other carriers, but I did still view it as exploitation.

Why do you think it is that British Airways is willing to pay its Engineering and IT Graduate Trainees 24 to 27k a year during training and not its pilots ?

With respect to the poster with 35 years experience, the decision i arrived at was the same one you would hope your children to make. I have just chosen to articulate my reasons for the benefit of others.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 15:11
  #749 (permalink)  
 
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SH is a different kettle of fish to LH
All FPP cadets will join SH, and in all likelyhood they will be there for AT LEAST 5yrs. I was around during the industrial unrest, and although there has definitely been an improvement, I think this is mainly attributed to the mix of ex BMI crew, who incidentally go out of there way to pop up to the fligh deck for a chat. Often this doesn't go down well with legacy crew!

Overall, there has been a marked difference in the last year, however to go as far as to say

With the sad events of the IA behind us I can categorically say that the atmosphere on the aircraft is possibly the best it has been for many, many years
is purely a LH view, and not one typical of SH.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 18:21
  #750 (permalink)  
 
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At the end of the day I doubt many newbies are going to decline to apply for, or accept a place on, a BA course simply because of the stories they hear in this place about the attitude of some of BA's Cabin Crew.

Quite right too....
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 08:21
  #751 (permalink)  
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Help- My daughter got her A level resit results yesterday and they were A / B / B... in the Summer she had a B / C / C so couldn't apply for FPP 2.

Does anyone know if the application filters block people who did not get the BBC minimums first time (ideally someone in my daughter's position who got through stage one of the selection process)?

If not does the application form actually include the dates that the qualifications were achieved?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 08:29
  #752 (permalink)  
 
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@RMC

Your daughter will be fine. As long as she has the certificates stating that she has at least BBC then you will have no problems. BA don't look at first time results.

Just a word of warning. Being a very critical forum, some people on here will wonder why the parent is finding out questions that she should be finding out herself.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 08:47
  #753 (permalink)  
 
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I got my results yesterday, I worked my nuts off and still only just got the B / B / C requirement.

It's a pain though, regardless of the amount of extra curricular stuff I've done, there'll still be someone applying who has done just as much, and has straight A's to go with it! Even then, coughing out just short of £90K isn't exactly easy either, so I'm currently in the process of investigating the modular route, seems alot more likely for someone in my situation! Aswell as that I have also heard a couple of horror stories about candidates who got in, got their ATPL, but then couldn't secure a job at the end of it.

None the less, good luck to your daughter with it all.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 15:35
  #754 (permalink)  
 
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HKCP don't worry there's a lot more to it than just the initial filters to get through to initial selection. When you get to the interview stage its a much more holistic view of the candidate and the grades to be considered initially form only a small part of that process. If you think it might be for you don't let thoughts of people with better exam results put you off.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 20:27
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Risk management is very important. One way to have no risk is to not leave your house and it's much the same with this scheme.

If BA go bust, the whole industry is knackered. The chances arent worth worrying about.

What's presented on an analysts call and actual future direction are very different things.

This scheme is still fantastic . Candidates joining can't go wrong IF they want to be an airline pilot based in the UK for a long term career...
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 16:28
  #756 (permalink)  
 
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Hello everyone

I'm new here. I've been following this thread for the past couple of months with quite an interest, but after speaking with some local pilots I'm starting to become discouraged. I have every intent of applying to the next round of FPP if they offer it, but I wanted to get your opinion on some things.

First of all, how important is it to have an aptitude for mechanics? I'm a very technical oriented person, but I'm mostly good with software/programming/ etc. I have pretty good knowledge of geology and meteorology, and I could do ok with learning physics, but I am currently far from understanding mechanics perfectly if that makes sense.

Secondly, I have been told that the fact that I am female might get in the way. I have a degree in IT and one in a social science, and I don't want to appear too "girly". So far, I had only one cargo pilot tell me that being a women might be advantageous in the process (since there are fewer overall) but most people have been saying that female pilots inspire less confidence.

So what do you think? I know it's mostly about the individual, and what I can do/learn, but I also know that this might play a part. Any insight from current/past applicants male or female would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 18:30
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Another who got A level results on Thursday and is trying to make a decision on whether to take a load of resits in the Summer in addition to my final exams (to get the BBC first time)... or take my finals in the Summer and the resits next January.

Is there anyone out there who got through the first stage ....but didn't have first time passes on the BBC?

If not... can someone tell me if the date you got the exams is entered in the application forms?
Thanks

Last edited by alosaurus; 10th Mar 2013 at 18:33. Reason: Good one
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 20:22
  #758 (permalink)  
 
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@helena

The selection process is oriented towards you as a person rather than towards your technical knowledge. They work on the basis that you'll be taught what you need in training anyway, though having some background or previous experience would of course assist the training stages.

Being female would not disadvantage you in any way with BA. In fact I think my entire selection process was only ever carried out with female staff and female pilots.

@alosaurus

First time passes isn't a requirement. As long as you have the required grades then you'll be fine. I can't recall if they're entered on the form or not, but your certificates would be photocopied at selection and mine were never mentioned again. Resitting exams could even be turned round into a positive indicator of your desire and determination.
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Old 12th Mar 2013, 18:04
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Regarding the first time passes of A levels at BBC grades does anyone actually know someone who got through the first phase having not passed these first time.
I understand the recent posters did not have to resit any exams? If the dates passes were obtained is not on the application form then I guess this would also clear it up once and for all. Cheers
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 00:36
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If they wanted first time passes, they would specify first time passes in the requirements.

Exam dates are included on the application form. I wouldn't worry about this. Some of the exam results from the majority of FPP cadets will be well over ten years ago.

As long as you have evidence of the required grades you will be fine, no matter when or how they were achieved.
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