Ryanair and Age (2012)
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Valid points I agree!
Only thing that we know, unfortunately - the "older" ones that have been dumb enough to embark on this journey, would probably not a have a problem to accept RYR conditions either, only difference might be that they would most likely be in a stronger financial position to work out when they had to muich!
If 8000 people applied for the job, it would depend if recruitment was part of the business model or if it was just to employ people working for my company.
The difference would be that if I wanted good workers, and and not making money on recruitment, I would want long term people, however it seems clearly that for example with RYR their business model is based on on come and go, as you do reach command early with these LCC companies, so it would become saturated if you did not have a steady flow peoples leaving.
I personally see RYR's cadet program, as an exceptional way for new pilots to get into the industry, of course us who get knocked backed are going to get disappointed.
I think if it was for the right reasons, it would not be such a bitter people for some to swallow.
I understand I am on the wrong side of the loop, but I know people in their mid 30's, several thousand hours, and not even getting an interview. Not really much to do with this, just let it go on as it will.
If there ever will be a pilot shortage, of course things can change. I heard from my AME who was well connected, that they have so many candidates now, they can pick and choose what they want!
Only thing that we know, unfortunately - the "older" ones that have been dumb enough to embark on this journey, would probably not a have a problem to accept RYR conditions either, only difference might be that they would most likely be in a stronger financial position to work out when they had to muich!
If 8000 people applied for the job, it would depend if recruitment was part of the business model or if it was just to employ people working for my company.
The difference would be that if I wanted good workers, and and not making money on recruitment, I would want long term people, however it seems clearly that for example with RYR their business model is based on on come and go, as you do reach command early with these LCC companies, so it would become saturated if you did not have a steady flow peoples leaving.
I personally see RYR's cadet program, as an exceptional way for new pilots to get into the industry, of course us who get knocked backed are going to get disappointed.
I think if it was for the right reasons, it would not be such a bitter people for some to swallow.
I understand I am on the wrong side of the loop, but I know people in their mid 30's, several thousand hours, and not even getting an interview. Not really much to do with this, just let it go on as it will.
If there ever will be a pilot shortage, of course things can change. I heard from my AME who was well connected, that they have so many candidates now, they can pick and choose what they want!
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cowhorse
That's exactly why they take young ones. Young individuals don't have a family and are incredibly good at surviving on little money.
The reason I went modular was to be able to afford money for a TR and living costs. My 100k integrated turned into 60k modular, I now have 40k for type rating, uniforms, living etc as I need it.
Whilst I'm training, I work a couple of hours a week which all goes into my 'living expenses if I end up at RYR' fund.
Not that I'm sure I'll even apply to Ryanair once I'm done.
So to be honest, if you end up at Ryanair and are completely unprepared for the lack of pay and how much money you need then all I have to say to that is you (not you cowhorse I mean this plurally) we're clearly unprepared and didn't research Ryanair and the lifestyle before applying.
I'm at least a year from applying for jobs, but I'm more than ready to battle the low pay with savings I have.
The reason I went modular was to be able to afford money for a TR and living costs. My 100k integrated turned into 60k modular, I now have 40k for type rating, uniforms, living etc as I need it.
Whilst I'm training, I work a couple of hours a week which all goes into my 'living expenses if I end up at RYR' fund.
Not that I'm sure I'll even apply to Ryanair once I'm done.
So to be honest, if you end up at Ryanair and are completely unprepared for the lack of pay and how much money you need then all I have to say to that is you (not you cowhorse I mean this plurally) we're clearly unprepared and didn't research Ryanair and the lifestyle before applying.
I'm at least a year from applying for jobs, but I'm more than ready to battle the low pay with savings I have.
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Well to use mates of mine as an example, have several at RYR, one just became captain with minimum time, just over 3 years with the company.
Another who started last summer, passed his 500 hour mark before christmas, and is now on the 75 Euro an hour, and for the summer located to Stansted, and doing 80 - 100 hours a month in the summer months.
That is not bad for either of these!
I am aware that the winter months can be low hours, however you need to balance 900 hours over the 12 months anyway, so you just need to balance your budget over the 12 months - and hope you get as close as possible to those 900 hours a year!
Cowhorse, what do you base your numbers on?
I do agree the 737 rating has a very limited market, but to say that the guys are not able to move on after they reach 1500 hours is not correct, an they do not spend more than 2 years to get to 1500 hours!
Of course I can only base this on the people that I actually know that works there.
Yes it does cost more than 27.000 Euros, probably total around 40.000 Euro as you mention, when you add on all the extras.
However if you fly max hours first year, that gives you 55.000 Euros, which as far as I know most people end up doing during the 12 months (900 hours)
Your TR will be completely deductible, so what you would be paying in taxes, has gone to pay for your TR instead, that's the reason they set you up as a limited company.
Second year you will be on around 67500, note this is all before tax of course.
But as I mention your TR cost will take care of most of what you would have to pay in tax anyway, so you actually end up with very little actual cost for your TR, as it is a business expense, which is fully deductible!
For a newly trained pilot, 21 years old, it is a fantastic chance, anybody saying something else is probably just a bit bitter because they did not get the chance themselves.
If done modular, I actually believe you can do for less than £60.000 Pudoc, probably around £40.000 - £45.000 from Zero, but is correct, you still have money to spare compared to the integrated courses, let's be honest, these jobs are the best chance modular have to get airline jobs.
I recall at Oxford for the MCC, their own cadets, who had already payed close to £100.000, was desperate to spend another £30.000 to get into Ryanair, that's when you have to question sanity, or should I say the lack of it!
Another thing, better to be a 500 hours B737 pilot, than a fATPL with no TR and no hours, 300 hours SEP! Seriously, see the perspective of the reality, you have to be in it, to have a chance to compete!
Another who started last summer, passed his 500 hour mark before christmas, and is now on the 75 Euro an hour, and for the summer located to Stansted, and doing 80 - 100 hours a month in the summer months.
That is not bad for either of these!
I am aware that the winter months can be low hours, however you need to balance 900 hours over the 12 months anyway, so you just need to balance your budget over the 12 months - and hope you get as close as possible to those 900 hours a year!
Cowhorse, what do you base your numbers on?
I do agree the 737 rating has a very limited market, but to say that the guys are not able to move on after they reach 1500 hours is not correct, an they do not spend more than 2 years to get to 1500 hours!
Of course I can only base this on the people that I actually know that works there.
Yes it does cost more than 27.000 Euros, probably total around 40.000 Euro as you mention, when you add on all the extras.
However if you fly max hours first year, that gives you 55.000 Euros, which as far as I know most people end up doing during the 12 months (900 hours)
Your TR will be completely deductible, so what you would be paying in taxes, has gone to pay for your TR instead, that's the reason they set you up as a limited company.
Second year you will be on around 67500, note this is all before tax of course.
But as I mention your TR cost will take care of most of what you would have to pay in tax anyway, so you actually end up with very little actual cost for your TR, as it is a business expense, which is fully deductible!
For a newly trained pilot, 21 years old, it is a fantastic chance, anybody saying something else is probably just a bit bitter because they did not get the chance themselves.
If done modular, I actually believe you can do for less than £60.000 Pudoc, probably around £40.000 - £45.000 from Zero, but is correct, you still have money to spare compared to the integrated courses, let's be honest, these jobs are the best chance modular have to get airline jobs.
I recall at Oxford for the MCC, their own cadets, who had already payed close to £100.000, was desperate to spend another £30.000 to get into Ryanair, that's when you have to question sanity, or should I say the lack of it!
Another thing, better to be a 500 hours B737 pilot, than a fATPL with no TR and no hours, 300 hours SEP! Seriously, see the perspective of the reality, you have to be in it, to have a chance to compete!
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So much disinformation in your post Cowhorse that it's hard to give a sensible reply. You suggest that pilots get kicked out after 500hrs. Not true: contracts are 5 years renewable, so it is effectively a permanent job in which you average about 800 hours per year. I'm nibbling the legal maximum this month and probably will until the autumn when things will calm down a bit. Pilot's don't leave the company unless they are moving on to another job (which for them would be a positive move otherwise they wouldn't do it) or they're retiring. The reason you get FR pilots commenting on threads like this is to counter some of the tiresome fallacies that get thrown around. Sure, there are plenty of things that could be better for pilots at the company, but to be fair it's a pretty good flying job especially for someone new to the industry. The exodus of senior FOs and junior Captains to BA and Emirates is testament to that.
Once again a thread with a straightforward question about Ryanair gets subverted into drivel.
Once again a thread with a straightforward question about Ryanair gets subverted into drivel.
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Cowhorse, what nonsense!
Completely based on fiction and a negative mindset.
Minimum hours means exactly that, so you know you will get that paid.
Strange that nobody I know who actually works for Ryanair complains that much. I know few guys unhappy because of their base, but that will always be an issue, regardless who you work for!
I for one was not happy with what happen with me, but still can see the complete picture if I was asked to give other people advice, i would not paint it black, just because I was not given the chance, be a man, and accept what happen, that's life!
Your logic does not make much sense, cheap labour you say? The difference is 25 Euro an hour, I have NEVER heard of a RYR pilot flying close to 500 hours a year as you mention!
Really, I don't agree with all RYR as a carrier for PX side, but for the pilot side, they are pretty well orientated, people leave between 3 - 4 years, unless they stay for command.
If you join when you 20, by the time you are 30 you will have loads of yeard in command, where else could you progress that fast? Sorry, but be objective, you seem to be very subjective in this discussion!
Completely based on fiction and a negative mindset.
Minimum hours means exactly that, so you know you will get that paid.
Strange that nobody I know who actually works for Ryanair complains that much. I know few guys unhappy because of their base, but that will always be an issue, regardless who you work for!
I for one was not happy with what happen with me, but still can see the complete picture if I was asked to give other people advice, i would not paint it black, just because I was not given the chance, be a man, and accept what happen, that's life!
Your logic does not make much sense, cheap labour you say? The difference is 25 Euro an hour, I have NEVER heard of a RYR pilot flying close to 500 hours a year as you mention!
Really, I don't agree with all RYR as a carrier for PX side, but for the pilot side, they are pretty well orientated, people leave between 3 - 4 years, unless they stay for command.
If you join when you 20, by the time you are 30 you will have loads of yeard in command, where else could you progress that fast? Sorry, but be objective, you seem to be very subjective in this discussion!
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Got to echo Cowhorse on this one...
A friend of mine who joined Ryanair in the last year or so is struggling to get a decent amount of hours and live. He regularly uses social media and I frequently get a blow by blow account of the latest internal politics at Ryanair. Lack of hours and cancelled leave were two of the most recent ones. However, the month's 'leave' (UNPAID - you're contractor's remember!) was greeted by some of his cohorts with relief; as they weren't sure how they were going to be able to eat or pay their rent in that month off.
Live the dream!
A friend of mine who joined Ryanair in the last year or so is struggling to get a decent amount of hours and live. He regularly uses social media and I frequently get a blow by blow account of the latest internal politics at Ryanair. Lack of hours and cancelled leave were two of the most recent ones. However, the month's 'leave' (UNPAID - you're contractor's remember!) was greeted by some of his cohorts with relief; as they weren't sure how they were going to be able to eat or pay their rent in that month off.
Live the dream!
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I actually believe you can do for less than £60.000 Pudoc, probably around £40.000 - £45.000 from Zero
This is why I don't understand integrated students that end up at Ryanair, you could spend half the money and still end up at Ryanair!
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Facts about Ryanair.
People say they prefer to recruit pilots in their early twenties because they think youngsters are easier to train than men and women aged 30+. Not true, in fact. Most pilots pass the TR.
The real reason is that they find it easier to control kids in their early twenties who are grateful for a job and think they're the Ace of Base because they fly jets. Earning €35,000 aged 21 is pretty good money when you've not even had to go to University after school...
Only Captains fly max hours of 900 per annum. First Officers average 750 - 800 hours for the first 3 years. You don't fly 900 hours in your first year!
Small bases die over the Winter, so expect to scrape by on 25-30 hours a month. Large bases average about 35-50 hours a month over the winter. For one month per year you earn nothing. Zilch.
For another 2 months a year you only get about 35 hours on average per month because of enforced annual leave - this used to be between February and April but now you get to 'choose' your additional enforced 10 working days off at 'any' time during the year.
The majority of Ryanair pilots complain about the company. I don't know what truckflyer is on about. Obviously not a Ryanair pilot.
The new contract that guarantees a minimum monthly payment makes no difference to the above because the overall annual hours will not be any different and any sensible person will have saved during the good summer for the bad winter months anyway.
As I say, facts about Ryanair.
People say they prefer to recruit pilots in their early twenties because they think youngsters are easier to train than men and women aged 30+. Not true, in fact. Most pilots pass the TR.
The real reason is that they find it easier to control kids in their early twenties who are grateful for a job and think they're the Ace of Base because they fly jets. Earning €35,000 aged 21 is pretty good money when you've not even had to go to University after school...
Only Captains fly max hours of 900 per annum. First Officers average 750 - 800 hours for the first 3 years. You don't fly 900 hours in your first year!
Small bases die over the Winter, so expect to scrape by on 25-30 hours a month. Large bases average about 35-50 hours a month over the winter. For one month per year you earn nothing. Zilch.
For another 2 months a year you only get about 35 hours on average per month because of enforced annual leave - this used to be between February and April but now you get to 'choose' your additional enforced 10 working days off at 'any' time during the year.
The majority of Ryanair pilots complain about the company. I don't know what truckflyer is on about. Obviously not a Ryanair pilot.
The new contract that guarantees a minimum monthly payment makes no difference to the above because the overall annual hours will not be any different and any sensible person will have saved during the good summer for the bad winter months anyway.
As I say, facts about Ryanair.
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The younger the cadet, the more willing he is to bend over and take it.
For example,
Pilot A has 200 hours, integrated course fresh out of training with somewhere near on 100k debt (after the type rating). He is 22, probably no children and more than likely not married or in a long term relationship.
Pilot B has 250 hours, modular trained having come from a different working back ground. Not quite as much training debt, and may already have a career he can earn £45k to fall back on. Now comes the crunch, this guy is 37, married with 3 kids who are at school.
Which one would you employ when you're looking for an extremely flexible pilot, one who will relocate to several bases and then float out of base for up to 30% of their working time?
FR do employ over 30-35's, just not many.
For example,
Pilot A has 200 hours, integrated course fresh out of training with somewhere near on 100k debt (after the type rating). He is 22, probably no children and more than likely not married or in a long term relationship.
Pilot B has 250 hours, modular trained having come from a different working back ground. Not quite as much training debt, and may already have a career he can earn £45k to fall back on. Now comes the crunch, this guy is 37, married with 3 kids who are at school.
Which one would you employ when you're looking for an extremely flexible pilot, one who will relocate to several bases and then float out of base for up to 30% of their working time?
FR do employ over 30-35's, just not many.
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Depone, I believe in what you say as you are in the company . But, i have two friends that joined RYR, one last year, the other in 2009. They ended up with almost the 900 hours in the first year.
I think there is no rule that says what max. or min. age, how many hours per moth, etc .. If RYR approach my with a contract only with 40 hours per month? I would grab it with my fingers, toes, teeth, whatever . I would not throw away any opportunity at this moment.
I think there is no rule that says what max. or min. age, how many hours per moth, etc .. If RYR approach my with a contract only with 40 hours per month? I would grab it with my fingers, toes, teeth, whatever . I would not throw away any opportunity at this moment.
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I have NEVER met or heard of an FO at Ryanair who has done 900 hours between May and the end of April. I did 730 according to my logbook. I think my second year was about 100 more. I've worked in both large and small bases...
It may happen in very rare cases. New cadets are ten-a-penny and there is no need to work them hard. Add to that the fact there are delays caused by line training and base changes, means that 900 hours would be rare.
It may happen in very rare cases. New cadets are ten-a-penny and there is no need to work them hard. Add to that the fact there are delays caused by line training and base changes, means that 900 hours would be rare.
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You say they get around 35.000 euro a year, flying 750 - 800 hours a year.
It works out 56.250 Euro a year, before tax if 750 hours, after you passed your first 500 hours. Now yes, this is before tax, but with a limited company, you should be able to deduct enough expenses to save you quite a lot in taxes etc., if you have a good accountant, and use your head properly. (business sense) All expenses in connection with your job are deductible when you are a limited company, if you are abroad and need to pay for your food, than this is deductible.
Now Depone, are you a current Ryanair pilot?
Fact is, that if you are novice pilot, with 250 hours TT, getting the chance to fly a jet with such low experience is for sure not the norm!
So you are actually getting paid to gain work experience!
In reality if they did like in the USA, nobody would be able to do this until they had 1500 hours TT, so at the same time you can complain of T & C's, but seriously are you trying to tell me that a fresh FO, with 250 hours TT, is worth more than this? I find the pay fair, compared to experience, there are far worse cases than RYR around in Europe!
You kind of contradiction yourself, saying FO does 750 -800 hours a year, and than talk about the down months, and annual leave!
The guarantee gives the pilot a base minimum average a month, and on that they can make more, end of the day, if they reach 800 hours a year, it is not that bad, as an FO.
Your maths are not the best, because for the life of me, I can't get 35.000 Euro to add up if they fly 800 hours a year.
Remember that TR, will be one big fat deductible expense, so that first 12 months, is money more or less in your pocked + paying the accountant!
It works out 56.250 Euro a year, before tax if 750 hours, after you passed your first 500 hours. Now yes, this is before tax, but with a limited company, you should be able to deduct enough expenses to save you quite a lot in taxes etc., if you have a good accountant, and use your head properly. (business sense) All expenses in connection with your job are deductible when you are a limited company, if you are abroad and need to pay for your food, than this is deductible.
Now Depone, are you a current Ryanair pilot?
Fact is, that if you are novice pilot, with 250 hours TT, getting the chance to fly a jet with such low experience is for sure not the norm!
So you are actually getting paid to gain work experience!
In reality if they did like in the USA, nobody would be able to do this until they had 1500 hours TT, so at the same time you can complain of T & C's, but seriously are you trying to tell me that a fresh FO, with 250 hours TT, is worth more than this? I find the pay fair, compared to experience, there are far worse cases than RYR around in Europe!
You kind of contradiction yourself, saying FO does 750 -800 hours a year, and than talk about the down months, and annual leave!
The guarantee gives the pilot a base minimum average a month, and on that they can make more, end of the day, if they reach 800 hours a year, it is not that bad, as an FO.
Your maths are not the best, because for the life of me, I can't get 35.000 Euro to add up if they fly 800 hours a year.
Remember that TR, will be one big fat deductible expense, so that first 12 months, is money more or less in your pocked + paying the accountant!
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Maxed Out and Torque Tonight. Tell me about it!! My straight-forward question has been hijacked, and is drifting past the PNR.... At least I got a few relevant comments. I suspect as I am married, come from a strong union and H & S background, and have worked for a couple of companies, I am not as appealing as the Nod and Zip youngsters.....
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Wangus.
Apologies for the thread creep.
Truckflyer
"Facts is facts". Yes, I'm a real Ryanair pilot. €35k for year 1 is after deductions and reflects (a) unpaid line training (b) low paid line training (c) pre-500hr low pay and (d) random events like volcanoes and base transfers. It is also a net figure, with no tax paid because all earnings are the repayment of expenses including the type rating.
Second year is a nasty surprise. Although you earn at a higher rate, you now pay tax and your expenses are actually very low if you are honest. Those expenses you do have: half your mobile phone bill, a new shirt every few months etc, are not that significant. Expenses only really make a difference to your income if (a) you lie to the taxman or (b) you go out of base for a week.
Nobody said you earn bad money. Quite the reverse. For a lad in his twenties with no commitments, who doesn't care about his pension or loss of licence insurance etc, it is fine and will allow him to buy his Porsche on hire purchase. But it is not a lot for a married man with kids. That's why Ryanair prefer employing the younger pilots...
Apologies for the thread creep.
Truckflyer
"Facts is facts". Yes, I'm a real Ryanair pilot. €35k for year 1 is after deductions and reflects (a) unpaid line training (b) low paid line training (c) pre-500hr low pay and (d) random events like volcanoes and base transfers. It is also a net figure, with no tax paid because all earnings are the repayment of expenses including the type rating.
Second year is a nasty surprise. Although you earn at a higher rate, you now pay tax and your expenses are actually very low if you are honest. Those expenses you do have: half your mobile phone bill, a new shirt every few months etc, are not that significant. Expenses only really make a difference to your income if (a) you lie to the taxman or (b) you go out of base for a week.
Nobody said you earn bad money. Quite the reverse. For a lad in his twenties with no commitments, who doesn't care about his pension or loss of licence insurance etc, it is fine and will allow him to buy his Porsche on hire purchase. But it is not a lot for a married man with kids. That's why Ryanair prefer employing the younger pilots...
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I do believe some of the details discussed does explain the reasons some thing that it is ok to be discriminated on age here.
Just because you are over 30/35 or even 40, it seems that some think that, that Ryanair think, that we would not accept these kind of conditions!
However this is amazingly completely outside of touch of reality, as I would believe that 99% of us older guys, knows exactly that we would have to be very flexible in the first years of this new career. If we had thought differently, we would not have chosen to try to get into aviation! Because to be honest, we would have to be insane to want to get into this, without first doing lots of research, and knowing that it would be an uphill struggle from day one!
That's why some of you guys "logic" who is trying to defend the reason why Ryanair does this, does not have any logic, but it is nice way to try to find an excuse!
This is not the first time this question has been raised, and it always ends the same way.
Fact is Ryanair, even if they do NOT pay your training, they do not expect their cadets to be long term with them, they still do not want to invest in long term older pilots!
To be honest, knowing what I know today, most probably would not want to do short haul Ryanair style anyway for the next 22 years!
We can raise this question again and again, nothing will change, Ryanair has a formula they use for their selection, all companies have that! The formula will largely with very few exception exclude anybody above 3X years old, not everybody, but probably 99% of them!
My CV was as good as anyone else's, as I know both got interview and got offered a job! If everybody else from your flight school within few months gets offered an interview by Ryanair, you do know there is something fishy!
Anyway that's the way it is, and unless somebody tries them in a tribunal, it is just to put up or shut up! Fact is that Ryanair will have enough people to show they are not discriminating!
The percentage of "older" pilots, is relative small compared to younger guys, so there is a clear reason why most of the guys are under 30's!
Just because you are over 30/35 or even 40, it seems that some think that, that Ryanair think, that we would not accept these kind of conditions!
However this is amazingly completely outside of touch of reality, as I would believe that 99% of us older guys, knows exactly that we would have to be very flexible in the first years of this new career. If we had thought differently, we would not have chosen to try to get into aviation! Because to be honest, we would have to be insane to want to get into this, without first doing lots of research, and knowing that it would be an uphill struggle from day one!
That's why some of you guys "logic" who is trying to defend the reason why Ryanair does this, does not have any logic, but it is nice way to try to find an excuse!
This is not the first time this question has been raised, and it always ends the same way.
Fact is Ryanair, even if they do NOT pay your training, they do not expect their cadets to be long term with them, they still do not want to invest in long term older pilots!
To be honest, knowing what I know today, most probably would not want to do short haul Ryanair style anyway for the next 22 years!
We can raise this question again and again, nothing will change, Ryanair has a formula they use for their selection, all companies have that! The formula will largely with very few exception exclude anybody above 3X years old, not everybody, but probably 99% of them!
My CV was as good as anyone else's, as I know both got interview and got offered a job! If everybody else from your flight school within few months gets offered an interview by Ryanair, you do know there is something fishy!
Anyway that's the way it is, and unless somebody tries them in a tribunal, it is just to put up or shut up! Fact is that Ryanair will have enough people to show they are not discriminating!
The percentage of "older" pilots, is relative small compared to younger guys, so there is a clear reason why most of the guys are under 30's!
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CY333
Is this CV "The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA", available online?
I saw this comment in one of your posts, and I would like to compare it with mine.
Is this CV "The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA", available online?
I saw this comment in one of your posts, and I would like to compare it with mine.
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Depone, understand your point of view, not sure your age is, but fact is that unless there had been a company like Ryanair, you would not have stood a chance to have got your first job flying a jet!
You would have had to gone the old route, instructing, maybe found some impossible air taxi job, if lucky got a MEP or turbo prop job etc.
It would have probably taken you 4 - 5 years, living on "nothing" before you would have had a chance of getting an interview for a job flying a jet!
I think now,companies like Ryanair are here, and giving low hour pilot jobs, it is expected to be the norm! It is not the norm, it is a freak out of nature, of the business! Most companies in Europe do not do these cadet schemes, and if you do get in with companies like BA, Lufthansa, Swiss etc., the odds that you pass their selection is approx. 1 in 100.000, as they set very high initial standards!
Regarding deductibles, well for an "older" guy, it probably would be a second home, to do the travelling etc., so the expense of living abroad would be 100% deductible, and if that was a home away from home, anything you use on food, drinks etc. expenses connected with travelling is also deductible! All depends on your personal situation, and that you have a good accountant that can give you the correct advice.
Thar Ryanair thinks that they would not be able to treat an "older" pilot the same way, while he is getting experience, is in my opinion not the real excuse, as they know that this would not be relevant, end of the day, a contract is a contract, either you are 24 or 40, if you decide to do this, you have to accept the good and the bad!
There is very interesting situation regarding this, I have met a few fighter pilots, who have retired. Some companies are very interested to employ them, others not so much.
Now these guys of course top trained and qualified, many of them due to their operational duties have age of around 40 - 45 years old, and have total time of around 1000 hours, flying Phantom or Tornado's! (note that these aircraft do not count as multi-engine aircraft)
Now if somebody 40 got a job flying a jet, he would in theory have more hours of experience than a 45 year old retired fighter pilot! So the point with this, is that there is still a potential for a good career for an "older" pilot, if given the chance!
When I say i know lot of pilots working for Ryanair that are happy, than this is true, because they know what the alternative would have been!
Some of them waited long, and paid their dues, before their chance, others was pot lucky, and got job within few months of finishing their training!
I think that I speak for 99% of older guys, that none of us would have cared the way Ryanair treated "us" for the first few years, as it is like any job, you must start at the bottom and work yourself up!
If Ryanair has decided their own policy, that they think "older" guys would be more grumpy, well than that is what they have the right to do, as it is their company!
For me though, there is no plausibility for this theory, because anybody who is motivated enough to sacrifice all the time and money on their training, would rather prefer to work for Ryanair for 3 - 5 years, instead of having to go to Tesco, or instruct SEP for the next 3 -4 years!
So I find it fairly fresh and a bit insulting, when a young pilot rookie from Ryanair starts complaining about his awful working conditions!
I know several guys who left for greater things after 3 - 4 years, and if that was the worst part of your career, the first 3 - 4 years, of a 30 + year career, seriously, then that is beggars belief!
Try being self-employed for over 20 years, and see how you cope with that, and you not making any profits or getting any hand outs!
You would have had to gone the old route, instructing, maybe found some impossible air taxi job, if lucky got a MEP or turbo prop job etc.
It would have probably taken you 4 - 5 years, living on "nothing" before you would have had a chance of getting an interview for a job flying a jet!
I think now,companies like Ryanair are here, and giving low hour pilot jobs, it is expected to be the norm! It is not the norm, it is a freak out of nature, of the business! Most companies in Europe do not do these cadet schemes, and if you do get in with companies like BA, Lufthansa, Swiss etc., the odds that you pass their selection is approx. 1 in 100.000, as they set very high initial standards!
Regarding deductibles, well for an "older" guy, it probably would be a second home, to do the travelling etc., so the expense of living abroad would be 100% deductible, and if that was a home away from home, anything you use on food, drinks etc. expenses connected with travelling is also deductible! All depends on your personal situation, and that you have a good accountant that can give you the correct advice.
Thar Ryanair thinks that they would not be able to treat an "older" pilot the same way, while he is getting experience, is in my opinion not the real excuse, as they know that this would not be relevant, end of the day, a contract is a contract, either you are 24 or 40, if you decide to do this, you have to accept the good and the bad!
There is very interesting situation regarding this, I have met a few fighter pilots, who have retired. Some companies are very interested to employ them, others not so much.
Now these guys of course top trained and qualified, many of them due to their operational duties have age of around 40 - 45 years old, and have total time of around 1000 hours, flying Phantom or Tornado's! (note that these aircraft do not count as multi-engine aircraft)
Now if somebody 40 got a job flying a jet, he would in theory have more hours of experience than a 45 year old retired fighter pilot! So the point with this, is that there is still a potential for a good career for an "older" pilot, if given the chance!
When I say i know lot of pilots working for Ryanair that are happy, than this is true, because they know what the alternative would have been!
Some of them waited long, and paid their dues, before their chance, others was pot lucky, and got job within few months of finishing their training!
I think that I speak for 99% of older guys, that none of us would have cared the way Ryanair treated "us" for the first few years, as it is like any job, you must start at the bottom and work yourself up!
If Ryanair has decided their own policy, that they think "older" guys would be more grumpy, well than that is what they have the right to do, as it is their company!
For me though, there is no plausibility for this theory, because anybody who is motivated enough to sacrifice all the time and money on their training, would rather prefer to work for Ryanair for 3 - 5 years, instead of having to go to Tesco, or instruct SEP for the next 3 -4 years!
So I find it fairly fresh and a bit insulting, when a young pilot rookie from Ryanair starts complaining about his awful working conditions!
I know several guys who left for greater things after 3 - 4 years, and if that was the worst part of your career, the first 3 - 4 years, of a 30 + year career, seriously, then that is beggars belief!
Try being self-employed for over 20 years, and see how you cope with that, and you not making any profits or getting any hand outs!
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Truckflyer
To be fair, I agree with much of what you say.
Ryanair's policy of employing younger pilots is short term, muddled thinking. I personally know a number of older pilots who would join the Company and be a real asset but they are not given the chance. Ironically, if the same pilots were to get the bare minimum command hours they would be snapped up by Ryanair regardless of the fact that their experience would not be commensurate with their age.
You see, everything about Ryanair's operation, from passengers to pilot recruitment, from operational control to engineering is based on satisfying the lowest common denominator. The Company only cares about short term money.
By the way, I am over 30 and would have quite happily taken the old route if Ryanair hadn't existed.
To be fair, I agree with much of what you say.
Ryanair's policy of employing younger pilots is short term, muddled thinking. I personally know a number of older pilots who would join the Company and be a real asset but they are not given the chance. Ironically, if the same pilots were to get the bare minimum command hours they would be snapped up by Ryanair regardless of the fact that their experience would not be commensurate with their age.
You see, everything about Ryanair's operation, from passengers to pilot recruitment, from operational control to engineering is based on satisfying the lowest common denominator. The Company only cares about short term money.
By the way, I am over 30 and would have quite happily taken the old route if Ryanair hadn't existed.
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Cowhorse:
What does Ryanair have to do with P2F?
I have a solicitor friend of mine, he went for 2 years with hardly any pay, just to gain experience!
So a newly qualified guy/girl - 200 - 250 hours with fATPL, complaining over work conditions with Ryanair, maybe you should have had a bit work experience in the real life before you joined Ryanair!
I understand there are not perfect BA conditions with Ryanair, and that is the main reason you got the job with Ryanair first, because at the moment nobody else wanted to hire you!
If this is your first proper flying job, get a reality check, you have to be the most ungrateful spoiled brats in this part of aviation!
If life is so miserable, vow......... I am sure there are a few thousand guys who would gladly swap places with you, and see their career start and progress!
Of course going on to better things depends on yourself, one thing is your mobility! If you want to be based and stuck in the UK for the rest of your life, I agree there are limited chances!
Than you have to wait, I know of guys last year that went both to Norwegian and BA, even though Norwegian is low cost, their conditions for experienced guys are better than Ryanair, so yes that is a step up!
If you are willing to move to ME or Asia, there will be chances, but I am pretty sure many are waiting for a chance to apply BA eventually!
However the attitude, the moaning about how terrible it is for you, being 21,22,23 or even 25, and with NO experience, having to suffer such mistreatment as Ryanair does to you, really makes my heart bleed out for you!
And if the problem is that you can't get away after 3 - 4 years, with over 2500 - 3000 hours on type, maybe you simply not good enough!
What does Ryanair have to do with P2F?
I have a solicitor friend of mine, he went for 2 years with hardly any pay, just to gain experience!
So a newly qualified guy/girl - 200 - 250 hours with fATPL, complaining over work conditions with Ryanair, maybe you should have had a bit work experience in the real life before you joined Ryanair!
I understand there are not perfect BA conditions with Ryanair, and that is the main reason you got the job with Ryanair first, because at the moment nobody else wanted to hire you!
If this is your first proper flying job, get a reality check, you have to be the most ungrateful spoiled brats in this part of aviation!
If life is so miserable, vow......... I am sure there are a few thousand guys who would gladly swap places with you, and see their career start and progress!
Of course going on to better things depends on yourself, one thing is your mobility! If you want to be based and stuck in the UK for the rest of your life, I agree there are limited chances!
Than you have to wait, I know of guys last year that went both to Norwegian and BA, even though Norwegian is low cost, their conditions for experienced guys are better than Ryanair, so yes that is a step up!
If you are willing to move to ME or Asia, there will be chances, but I am pretty sure many are waiting for a chance to apply BA eventually!
However the attitude, the moaning about how terrible it is for you, being 21,22,23 or even 25, and with NO experience, having to suffer such mistreatment as Ryanair does to you, really makes my heart bleed out for you!
And if the problem is that you can't get away after 3 - 4 years, with over 2500 - 3000 hours on type, maybe you simply not good enough!
