OK no pilot. Then what??
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Piltdown man>
Suggestion for you. Might be a bit hard, but here goes.
Think outside the box. Go to where the jobs are. Here in Africa there are tons of jobs for ambitious low time pilots. We have plenty of freshers from Europe who with the right attitude get work and leave with atp command time. Having worked in Asia the same thing is applicable. None I know went to oxford and most paid for themselves and more than a few are in their thirties or beyond.
As previously mentioned I also know plenty of pilots who trained and got instructor work in the states.
Where there is a will, there is a way. Get out more and stop expecting everything to be handed to you.
Suggestion for you. Might be a bit hard, but here goes.
Think outside the box. Go to where the jobs are. Here in Africa there are tons of jobs for ambitious low time pilots. We have plenty of freshers from Europe who with the right attitude get work and leave with atp command time. Having worked in Asia the same thing is applicable. None I know went to oxford and most paid for themselves and more than a few are in their thirties or beyond.
As previously mentioned I also know plenty of pilots who trained and got instructor work in the states.
Where there is a will, there is a way. Get out more and stop expecting everything to be handed to you.
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well said sicamore. Everyone finishes or befor they start expect to fly 777s and A380s to exotic locations all over the world. Like anyjob you start in the mail room and work up. The harder you work the doors will open. Everyone in this thread complaining about low pay and wives not being happy MAN UP. You do the job because you love to fly, not because you want the same image as Christiano Ronaldo. Stop blaming the world for your failiours.
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Tacitus,
Thanks for starting this thread, it's cheering me up, or at least most of it is. I'm going down the same route as you, working in the oil industry just to get enough cash to fly. Currently half way through my ATPLs and been rejected to 3 pilot programs/aerial survey future pilot schemes. Still, I watch my big oil salaries come in and I do not regret for one second the amount that has come out for my training so far.
One day... Whether it is crop dusting in Sudan or surveying in Norwich, I will end up in that seat.
Don't give up. Seriously. I think that 20 years for now, you will regret it if you do.
Thanks for starting this thread, it's cheering me up, or at least most of it is. I'm going down the same route as you, working in the oil industry just to get enough cash to fly. Currently half way through my ATPLs and been rejected to 3 pilot programs/aerial survey future pilot schemes. Still, I watch my big oil salaries come in and I do not regret for one second the amount that has come out for my training so far.
One day... Whether it is crop dusting in Sudan or surveying in Norwich, I will end up in that seat.
Don't give up. Seriously. I think that 20 years for now, you will regret it if you do.
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A major reason for the current state of pilot conditions is that too many pilots confuse their job with their hobby and sell themselves short. They are usually either young and inexperienced or second career (relatively well off) pilots.
Long after the excitement has worn off it will remain your job.
By the way, I enjoy flying in my spare time and get paid for that too, but my real job is what many of you aspire to. I'm afraid that you will want to be well paid for that; not treated as cheap casual, whining labour by penny pinching and opportunistic management (whilst being subjected to regulation by fools).
Of course, several wise aviators did warn me when I started out, but like many of you, I knew better.
Anyway, the very best of luck to you all in navigating your careers through shark infested waters. Stay sharp.
Long after the excitement has worn off it will remain your job.
By the way, I enjoy flying in my spare time and get paid for that too, but my real job is what many of you aspire to. I'm afraid that you will want to be well paid for that; not treated as cheap casual, whining labour by penny pinching and opportunistic management (whilst being subjected to regulation by fools).
Of course, several wise aviators did warn me when I started out, but like many of you, I knew better.
Anyway, the very best of luck to you all in navigating your careers through shark infested waters. Stay sharp.
Last edited by Case One; 22nd May 2012 at 08:39.
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The elephant in the room that no-one ever really discusses on these forums is this:
After 10, 15, 20 years or more sitting in a cockpit with the number of hairy moments and close calls preying more and more on ones ageing mind, quite a few pilots get utterly sick of the experience. They know they cannot change profession without a massive pay cut so they direct their anger towards T & C's, rather than admit they hate the job they once loved.
T & C's are dropping and all pilots should fight to improve them or at least stop them from getting worse, but the cruelest consequence of reduced pay and no benefits is that it stops pilots from taking early retirement if they desperately want to.
" How selfish these miserable burnt out old captains are ", I hear wannabes cry, but when you become them what will your escape plan be?
Of course not every pilot feels like this, but many do and many are surprised by the way their own psyche turns against what they do for a living. If you feel yourself yearning to be on the ground as soon as possible as you reach top of climb, then your days as a pilot are numbered. Think about your escape plan now, because the company package you're probably on won't help you.
After 10, 15, 20 years or more sitting in a cockpit with the number of hairy moments and close calls preying more and more on ones ageing mind, quite a few pilots get utterly sick of the experience. They know they cannot change profession without a massive pay cut so they direct their anger towards T & C's, rather than admit they hate the job they once loved.
T & C's are dropping and all pilots should fight to improve them or at least stop them from getting worse, but the cruelest consequence of reduced pay and no benefits is that it stops pilots from taking early retirement if they desperately want to.
" How selfish these miserable burnt out old captains are ", I hear wannabes cry, but when you become them what will your escape plan be?
Of course not every pilot feels like this, but many do and many are surprised by the way their own psyche turns against what they do for a living. If you feel yourself yearning to be on the ground as soon as possible as you reach top of climb, then your days as a pilot are numbered. Think about your escape plan now, because the company package you're probably on won't help you.
Last edited by Cruise Zombie; 22nd May 2012 at 08:42.
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My experience is:
I failed to enter military aviation 25 years ago, so I took other paths. Being fed up of everything else I now decided to go back to aviation and get a job in it. Aged 43, I'm obviously not looking to airliners but anything that keeps me near airplanes and flying and I really don't care of how much money I might earn.
My view is:
There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.
Expectations don't pay off... objectives do.
I failed to enter military aviation 25 years ago, so I took other paths. Being fed up of everything else I now decided to go back to aviation and get a job in it. Aged 43, I'm obviously not looking to airliners but anything that keeps me near airplanes and flying and I really don't care of how much money I might earn.
My view is:
There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.
Expectations don't pay off... objectives do.
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Forget the flying career, I wouldnt if I knew what it would be like.
I really enjoy flying, but flying an airliner from A to B, fixed routes, procedures, middle of night sign ons, etc is not enjoyable, at least once the novelty wears off.
If you have the money saved for the licence, plus buying type ratings each time you want to change companies, then better you hire or buy a light aircraft / homebuilt and fly for fun.
Hire a Piper Cub, buy an RV4 etc etc.
You could buy several with the money it will cost you to pursue a career.
Enjoy your flying
I really enjoy flying, but flying an airliner from A to B, fixed routes, procedures, middle of night sign ons, etc is not enjoyable, at least once the novelty wears off.
If you have the money saved for the licence, plus buying type ratings each time you want to change companies, then better you hire or buy a light aircraft / homebuilt and fly for fun.
Hire a Piper Cub, buy an RV4 etc etc.
You could buy several with the money it will cost you to pursue a career.
Enjoy your flying
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As a very new PPL student and reading all these posts its difficult not to be downhearted, however, if flying is in your heart you have to do it. I'm a social worker and every day I work with people who tell they wish they had done this...or done that. I've spent too long doing the same and turning 31 this year I'm going for it, sod everyone that tells you its stupid...you only live once. Those that seem a little doom and gloom probably have seen the profession deteriorate but hey we may be young, inexperienced but we have a passion and that counts for a lot.
If you really want to you will get there, I believe that, I earn a reasonable salary but would quite happily half it to even fly cessnas because thats my dream. And I think you need to think outside the box, a lot of people seem determined to walk into a job with Virgin or BA straight away, great if you've £80k down the sofa to go down the Oxford route but most of us dont.
As useful as these threads are there are people out there that just want to tramp all over your dreams and tell you how awful it is...maybe I'm naive but I realised that the first thing I do at work is put on flight radar, I knew I had a problem. You could get run over by a car tomorrow....follow the dream. Right back to aviation law and meteorology
If you really want to you will get there, I believe that, I earn a reasonable salary but would quite happily half it to even fly cessnas because thats my dream. And I think you need to think outside the box, a lot of people seem determined to walk into a job with Virgin or BA straight away, great if you've £80k down the sofa to go down the Oxford route but most of us dont.
As useful as these threads are there are people out there that just want to tramp all over your dreams and tell you how awful it is...maybe I'm naive but I realised that the first thing I do at work is put on flight radar, I knew I had a problem. You could get run over by a car tomorrow....follow the dream. Right back to aviation law and meteorology
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There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money.
Wrong! I am one of many who think with a brain, not a heart. I work for a salary. No bucks, no buck rogers. I suggest if you want a lifetime career out of this business you think the same.
Wrong! I am one of many who think with a brain, not a heart. I work for a salary. No bucks, no buck rogers. I suggest if you want a lifetime career out of this business you think the same.
My view is:
There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.
There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.
That sentiment ( doing it for the love) is why the industry has been able to shift the burden of training cost onto the student pilot, why T&Cs are plunging across the industry, and above all it's far to simplistic to think that the old
like me are just whinging about T&Cs because we've had enough of flying. After 30 years at the sharp end I and many of my peer group will still own up to getting a kick out of the likes of a smooth landing on a c***py day, an on time arrival, sharing a beer with colleagues downroute, and saying goodbye to the passengers having delivered them safely to their destination.But as far as the Boss is concerned - I tell him like every other Commercial Licence holder I'm a highly skilled professional and I'm b****ed if I'm going to work for steadily reducing T&Cs ...and IMHO the sooner we all start thinking along the same lines the better.[/RANT]
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Canada integrated vs Europe Integrated
Hi everyone,
I will appreciate all ur advice. I have worked hard over the years to save for pilot training. I am now ready. From my research, i've concluded that in my position being 30 with 50,000 dollars, Canadian and Euro citizenship, the best route would be Integrated Trainin instead of modular. Right?
Moncton flight school in Canada is what Ive selected over OOA and CTC. They offer integrated training to get fATPL with TCIA and JAA. Cost 56,000 dollars. 1 year duration. They emailed me proffesional information. Now i will go vissit the school first.
I dont know if my decission is right. I believe that I am getting a great deal, but i dont know how the airlines in europe will look at me, will they see me like the OOA and ctc graduates? Canadian training from a recognized institution, dual citizenships. I speak English, Greek, and french fluently.
Thank you very much for your advice. Please advise.
I will appreciate all ur advice. I have worked hard over the years to save for pilot training. I am now ready. From my research, i've concluded that in my position being 30 with 50,000 dollars, Canadian and Euro citizenship, the best route would be Integrated Trainin instead of modular. Right?
Moncton flight school in Canada is what Ive selected over OOA and CTC. They offer integrated training to get fATPL with TCIA and JAA. Cost 56,000 dollars. 1 year duration. They emailed me proffesional information. Now i will go vissit the school first.
I dont know if my decission is right. I believe that I am getting a great deal, but i dont know how the airlines in europe will look at me, will they see me like the OOA and ctc graduates? Canadian training from a recognized institution, dual citizenships. I speak English, Greek, and french fluently.
Thank you very much for your advice. Please advise.
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Wiggy - probably the most accurate post so far on this thread.
A320 lo/co F/O, 4000 Hours. Dreamed of being a pilot all my life.
6 years in, and any chance to get out of this industry on a decent-ish salary & I'd be doing it. My health is shot, I hardly ever see wife & kids and over-prescriptive SOP's make the job boring.
My 2 cents' worth.
A320 lo/co F/O, 4000 Hours. Dreamed of being a pilot all my life.
6 years in, and any chance to get out of this industry on a decent-ish salary & I'd be doing it. My health is shot, I hardly ever see wife & kids and over-prescriptive SOP's make the job boring.
My 2 cents' worth.
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FliegerTiger
Here's a question from a non-professional.
Do you think that lifestyle will change if you move away from a low cost? Or do you think it's a same thing all round for pilots at the likes of Thomson? I'm not being condescending here, I'm asking out of genuine interest.
Do you think that lifestyle will change if you move away from a low cost? Or do you think it's a same thing all round for pilots at the likes of Thomson? I'm not being condescending here, I'm asking out of genuine interest.
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Not an airline pilot but flying for a (bad) living for some time now. I vary between actively hating it and being ambivalent about it. Which is ironic considering how much time and effort I spent on achieving my 'dream'. Realise now that it was all bit of a mistake and in truth I would have been better off if I'd failed the medical for some reason or other thus bursting my bubble a lot earlier.
But make no mistake flying is not quite like any other job, sure there are comparable jobs. Comparisions with any form of desk job simply doesn't cut it. There are moments where you suddenly realise how lucky you are often when you find yourself looking out the window at something no one on the ground could ever even imagine. But it's not enough and the negatives eventually outweigh the positives. I'm trying to step back now a bit in part to try and enjoy it again and in part because my life outside aviation is now more important to me now.
But it's hard and what happens is that your experience is now considered valuable and you get offered jobs you could only dream of when you were younger. But you hesitate although you must take it because you have no fall back option.
I recently got back in touch with an old pilot friend. We reminisced happily about our formation days and escapades in flying. But we both feel the need to ease out of the job. Disappointed in ourselves we are.
Re read Atr42, wiggy and cruise zombie. They have pretty much nailed it along with others.
But make no mistake flying is not quite like any other job, sure there are comparable jobs. Comparisions with any form of desk job simply doesn't cut it. There are moments where you suddenly realise how lucky you are often when you find yourself looking out the window at something no one on the ground could ever even imagine. But it's not enough and the negatives eventually outweigh the positives. I'm trying to step back now a bit in part to try and enjoy it again and in part because my life outside aviation is now more important to me now.
But it's hard and what happens is that your experience is now considered valuable and you get offered jobs you could only dream of when you were younger. But you hesitate although you must take it because you have no fall back option.
I recently got back in touch with an old pilot friend. We reminisced happily about our formation days and escapades in flying. But we both feel the need to ease out of the job. Disappointed in ourselves we are.
Re read Atr42, wiggy and cruise zombie. They have pretty much nailed it along with others.
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My profession is Marine Navigation, I am a 3rd officer in Merchant ships hauling crude oil 28,000 tonnes dispacement + 18,000 tonnes displacement of the ship. Navigating in confined channels, making impossible turns, making the dock with 30 knot wind blowing from shore. GUESS WHAT??? WE ALL THOUGHT WE WHERE GONNA BE CRUISE SHIP CAPTAINS. hahaha......or at least we thought we where gonna travel the world from port to port. The harsh reality is that you work your arse off. None of this applies.
Same is for the the Airline industry. Come one Pilots, why in the heck would you want to discourage yonge pilots to make it to the left seat of a boeing 747? Just because a pilot didnt make it to the left seat of a large airliners doesn't mean anything. Maybe someone else will make it, in a much shorter time and live the dream.
I feel how you feel about the Marine Navigation Industry, I feel burned inside and depleted, but guess what, you have to posses certain qualities, and if you don't have them, then work on them, one of these qualities is not to regret the time, sacrifice, and effort to live a dream. A dream is only alive before you live it. The best part of the adventure is the beginning not the end. This applies to every officer at Sea or Air. Personal Development is very important.
Water doesn't boil at 99 degrees. Imagine to stop the kettle at 99?
even if you never live your dream of flying a specific plane for a living, just look back and pay special attention. You will realize that you lived 80% of your dream already. Don't be ungrateful, and discourage others. Tha only creates negative thoughts in your thoughts, life, energy, trust me this negative energy sticks with you, and people see it in interviews.
Get a personality make over, then you will see how you will attract better jobs.
take care
Same is for the the Airline industry. Come one Pilots, why in the heck would you want to discourage yonge pilots to make it to the left seat of a boeing 747? Just because a pilot didnt make it to the left seat of a large airliners doesn't mean anything. Maybe someone else will make it, in a much shorter time and live the dream.
I feel how you feel about the Marine Navigation Industry, I feel burned inside and depleted, but guess what, you have to posses certain qualities, and if you don't have them, then work on them, one of these qualities is not to regret the time, sacrifice, and effort to live a dream. A dream is only alive before you live it. The best part of the adventure is the beginning not the end. This applies to every officer at Sea or Air. Personal Development is very important.
Water doesn't boil at 99 degrees. Imagine to stop the kettle at 99?
even if you never live your dream of flying a specific plane for a living, just look back and pay special attention. You will realize that you lived 80% of your dream already. Don't be ungrateful, and discourage others. Tha only creates negative thoughts in your thoughts, life, energy, trust me this negative energy sticks with you, and people see it in interviews.
Get a personality make over, then you will see how you will attract better jobs.
take care
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Navigate don't complain
Well they don't realize that landing airline jobs to make a living can be achieved by either being a rich kid where mommy loves you so much and willing to help you go to OAA at age 21, or working your way up first getting a stable career with job security, then make enough money to pay for your training without major debts, then work on personal development, strong will and desire is needed. You get strong personal development through experience, failed attempts, successful attempts, that shows in an interview eg. your body language, your energy, your answers and tone of voice, how you smile etc...and it all has to come naturally.
Trust me, I know.
Wisdom from the Sea
Trust me, I know.
Wisdom from the Sea
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I suspect that the OP needs to decide if he wants "to be a Pilot" or if he wants to "work as a Pilot", since they can be very different things.
How many people who spend their own money on flying puddle jumpers, on days off from their real work, are hating it?
How many people who spend their own money on flying puddle jumpers, on days off from their real work, are hating it?
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Water doesn't boil at 99 degrees. Imagine to stop the kettle at 99?
Cool job though
Last edited by TTango; 31st May 2012 at 09:18.