OK no pilot. Then what??
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OK no pilot. Then what??
Long time reader and member here, but i dont post often. I read the wannabes forums often and the majority of the posts by prospective pilots regarding the job market are quite depresssing. My question is this, i am 32 
and all my working life i was saving money in order to begin flight training debt free, which i thought was the sensible option. Now after reading thousand posts, even that i have the money, ive noticed
a. Im in the wrong side of the 30s, the ideal pilot should be young with money for the likes of RYR and EZY
b. In Europe there is no general aviation or airlines that would hire people like me
Quite frankly i always wanted to be a pilot and i was commited to saving money in order to do it. I dont want to be rich, i just dreamed of a career change. Now i am quite lost since i dont have a target. I want to make a career change (im in the armed forces,not UK) but i dont think that beeing a pilot is sensible option now. If there are any other people in the same boat as me please share your thoughts.
PS I hope i posted in the proper section of the forum
and all my working life i was saving money in order to begin flight training debt free, which i thought was the sensible option. Now after reading thousand posts, even that i have the money, ive noticeda. Im in the wrong side of the 30s, the ideal pilot should be young with money for the likes of RYR and EZY
b. In Europe there is no general aviation or airlines that would hire people like me
Quite frankly i always wanted to be a pilot and i was commited to saving money in order to do it. I dont want to be rich, i just dreamed of a career change. Now i am quite lost since i dont have a target. I want to make a career change (im in the armed forces,not UK) but i dont think that beeing a pilot is sensible option now. If there are any other people in the same boat as me please share your thoughts.
PS I hope i posted in the proper section of the forum
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Go for it. 32 is nothing. I got my cpl at 25 but didn't start flying professionally until 35. 4 years later have 3500 hours and command on regional turboprop and a blast along the way flying bush and seaplanes. Don't regret it a bit and future is bright.
Enthusiasm and dedication will go.a long way. Start with that and you can't go wrong. Try doing your training in the states and do your instructor rating. They then may hire you under student visa then. Great fun and you won't be one of the crowd
Enthusiasm and dedication will go.a long way. Start with that and you can't go wrong. Try doing your training in the states and do your instructor rating. They then may hire you under student visa then. Great fun and you won't be one of the crowd
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gave up a respectable career at 29, did all my training and got a job with RYR at nearly 31...things can certainly work your way but you know the deal - work hard and be in the right place at the right time. No one says it will be easy but at least try - you have to be in it to win it as they say, or you could be sitting in your armchair at 60 thinking 'what if'...
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I'm turning 27 next month, approaching 1000TT with nearly 300h on a regional TP, decent salary, repaying my loan and saving some money every month.
If I had to do it all over again, I would turn my back to avation without even thinking about it. And things are just going to get worse...
If I had to do it all over again, I would turn my back to avation without even thinking about it. And things are just going to get worse...
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Tacitus, you're only guaranteed to live once so do what you think will make you happy.
Military flying is one thing, civil quite another. In the latter it seems to me that the heavier the equipment and the more you're paid, the less fulfilling the professional side of the job is. I now fly four engine long haul all round the world, a job many would envy, I hate it. Previously I flew much more interesting shaul haul jet and turboprop. Before that - great navy jet and chopper flying - but it was a young man's lifestyle.
I now have over 10,000 hours, I'm glad to have done what I have, but I'm actively aiming to retire from this racket at 55. If you're really thinking about airline flying I advise you stay in a real job, hopefully with a real career structure, and fly for fun. A modern airline "career" is more of a trap than a career. To be fair you'd be in this for twenty fewer years than me and may never get jaded.
But, as I say, do what you think will make you happy - you're not too old.
Military flying is one thing, civil quite another. In the latter it seems to me that the heavier the equipment and the more you're paid, the less fulfilling the professional side of the job is. I now fly four engine long haul all round the world, a job many would envy, I hate it. Previously I flew much more interesting shaul haul jet and turboprop. Before that - great navy jet and chopper flying - but it was a young man's lifestyle.
I now have over 10,000 hours, I'm glad to have done what I have, but I'm actively aiming to retire from this racket at 55. If you're really thinking about airline flying I advise you stay in a real job, hopefully with a real career structure, and fly for fun. A modern airline "career" is more of a trap than a career. To be fair you'd be in this for twenty fewer years than me and may never get jaded.
But, as I say, do what you think will make you happy - you're not too old.
Last edited by Case One; 18th May 2012 at 23:20.
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Flying is no longer the career people imagine. The relentless downward pressure on T&Cs mean that for many now it is years before they start making inroads into their mountain of debt caused by training loans. Please do all you can to find out the truth as life as a newly minted FO with a fATPL can be poorly paid, uncertain, stressful and hard. And remember how ever bad it is now the chances are that by the time you are qualified and looking for your first job the T&Cs will be even worse. Do not listen to the propaganda from the training organisations but instead talk to career advisors at BALPA/IALPA.
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Thank you all for your kind inputs.
I have been reading the forum for a long time and ive noticed the dramatic changes in the profession, towards the worst. Personally i think that long are the days where a self improver or a person who saved hard in order to be a pilot could brake into an airline. Too sad. A part of me does not want to accept this, as i still want to train as a pilot but sometimes reality kicks in and its really hard. I truly hope the terms for this profession change for the better over the years and one day help my child be a pilot in a much better enviroment.
I have been reading the forum for a long time and ive noticed the dramatic changes in the profession, towards the worst. Personally i think that long are the days where a self improver or a person who saved hard in order to be a pilot could brake into an airline. Too sad. A part of me does not want to accept this, as i still want to train as a pilot but sometimes reality kicks in and its really hard. I truly hope the terms for this profession change for the better over the years and one day help my child be a pilot in a much better enviroment.
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The majority of people here who aren't happy with their chosen career obviously haven't set their expectations correctly before starting out.
If you want to earn a lot of money, then get into investment banking or start a tech company which will be one of a million in being successful.
The fact is that most careers have their good points and bad points and it is up to you to decide what is important to you in life. If it is money, status, a stable routine or changing the world, then flying may not be for you.
99.99999% of people out there are in jobs that they either do not have passion for or didn't plan on doing when they were a kid. They drifted along in life and somehow fell into the job because it was easy.... and then stayed in it because that was easy to. They have no passion.
I've worked in 12 countries throughout the world from an investment banker on Wall Street to teaching scuba in Greece - and for me flying is the best job of all. I work on average 4 days a week and only 5 hours on those days. The rest of the time belongs to me to run my own business, write a book, design my dream house or whatever tickles my fancy. People dream of that as a retirement. And I get paid to fly, my passion as a kid. What could beat that?
I'd also suggest that if you have a backup career you can make good money at, then that is the way to go. I think that one of the reasons why are a lot of pilots are unhappy (aside from being prima donnas) is that they don't have anything to fall back on, they are stuck and feel ultimately helpless. I'd also suggest to them, that is what most of the working world feels like and to stop feeling like a victim.
Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you.
If you want to earn a lot of money, then get into investment banking or start a tech company which will be one of a million in being successful.
The fact is that most careers have their good points and bad points and it is up to you to decide what is important to you in life. If it is money, status, a stable routine or changing the world, then flying may not be for you.
99.99999% of people out there are in jobs that they either do not have passion for or didn't plan on doing when they were a kid. They drifted along in life and somehow fell into the job because it was easy.... and then stayed in it because that was easy to. They have no passion.
I've worked in 12 countries throughout the world from an investment banker on Wall Street to teaching scuba in Greece - and for me flying is the best job of all. I work on average 4 days a week and only 5 hours on those days. The rest of the time belongs to me to run my own business, write a book, design my dream house or whatever tickles my fancy. People dream of that as a retirement. And I get paid to fly, my passion as a kid. What could beat that?
I'd also suggest that if you have a backup career you can make good money at, then that is the way to go. I think that one of the reasons why are a lot of pilots are unhappy (aside from being prima donnas) is that they don't have anything to fall back on, they are stuck and feel ultimately helpless. I'd also suggest to them, that is what most of the working world feels like and to stop feeling like a victim.
Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you.
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"Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you"
Thats true. As a matter of fact i would love any flying job that comes with a livable salary. I dont want to be rich or fly immediatly 737s. I thought of making instucting a career but, correct me if im wrong, the instuctor salarys are minimal. I thought also of turboprops but as a matter of fact after reading various posts i concluded that there are jobs only for people who spend a fortune to the likes of CTC. If someone has a diferent perspective backed up by facts i would happily take it into account.
I said this because i always wanted to fly as a job, it was my target, but now i think that this target cant support my life and its really depressing.
Thats true. As a matter of fact i would love any flying job that comes with a livable salary. I dont want to be rich or fly immediatly 737s. I thought of making instucting a career but, correct me if im wrong, the instuctor salarys are minimal. I thought also of turboprops but as a matter of fact after reading various posts i concluded that there are jobs only for people who spend a fortune to the likes of CTC. If someone has a diferent perspective backed up by facts i would happily take it into account.
I said this because i always wanted to fly as a job, it was my target, but now i think that this target cant support my life and its really depressing.
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Whilst the perception is that pilots these days are badly paid and worked hard, the reality seems to be lagging somewhat behind the popular view.
In the UK pilots are still in one of the highest paid professions in the country (we were 4th in a survey done by HMRC, looking at job titles and the numbers on P60s). Hardly a claim for poverty.
Despite being on the summer schedule, I am on a stretch of 6 days off, have 3 days work mid week coming up, 4 hours work in each (duty hours, not flight hours) and then have 3 days off again next weekend. Ask all my mates who work in The City about long hours.
Whilst it appears to be difficult to get in to the profession, I flew with an FO freshly out of Oxford - all his classmates have jobs!
It might not be what it used to be, but it's still a great deal.
In the UK pilots are still in one of the highest paid professions in the country (we were 4th in a survey done by HMRC, looking at job titles and the numbers on P60s). Hardly a claim for poverty.
Despite being on the summer schedule, I am on a stretch of 6 days off, have 3 days work mid week coming up, 4 hours work in each (duty hours, not flight hours) and then have 3 days off again next weekend. Ask all my mates who work in The City about long hours.
Whilst it appears to be difficult to get in to the profession, I flew with an FO freshly out of Oxford - all his classmates have jobs!
It might not be what it used to be, but it's still a great deal.
Last edited by Artie Fufkin; 20th May 2012 at 13:49.
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Artie,
It's all fine and dandy upstairs if you're a senior and have been in the industry 8+ years. However, this isn't about pay. It's all linked to your second comment below:
I can assure you that whilst Mr 21 yo Middle-class Alpha Male from Oxford is getting all the jobs, hundreds of qualified 30-45 year old guys are getting overlooked because they have the Modular badge or have a little experience, or are a little more mature (with the added baggage/complexity of family life). These Oxford/CTC guys are cheaper for the airlines to hire, far less hassle and being in major debt they think not twice about the first deal that is laid out on the table.
For guys who couldn't afford Oxford as a flight school, life is not that rosy.
Whilst the perception is that pilots these days are badly paid and worked hard, the reality seems to be lagging somewhat behind the popular view.
Whilst it appears to be difficult to get in to the profession, I flew with an FO freshly out of Oxford - all his classmates have jobs!
For guys who couldn't afford Oxford as a flight school, life is not that rosy.
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Superpilot - Well said, especially in your second comment. This is the crux of the problem and for me, trying to decide which road to go down is a hard one!
You can either; go the Modular route, spend the same amount of money and get no where trying to find an airline job. Or try to go the ab initio route with OAA, CTC etc and you will have priority over all these other guys trying to get an airline job.
Sounds an easy decision but if you don't have the funding and you really want to get started, go the Modular route. In my view, it's a more fun way to get there but you will need a lot of luck, help and be in the right place at the right time.
I myself, am leaning to go the Modular route. The FTO I am looking at charges students £25k plus for the CPL/IR and have links with airlines and every student who went there now has a flying job. I'm going to give it a shot and well, hope for the best but plan for the worst if it doesn't work out.
You can either; go the Modular route, spend the same amount of money and get no where trying to find an airline job. Or try to go the ab initio route with OAA, CTC etc and you will have priority over all these other guys trying to get an airline job.
Sounds an easy decision but if you don't have the funding and you really want to get started, go the Modular route. In my view, it's a more fun way to get there but you will need a lot of luck, help and be in the right place at the right time.
I myself, am leaning to go the Modular route. The FTO I am looking at charges students £25k plus for the CPL/IR and have links with airlines and every student who went there now has a flying job. I'm going to give it a shot and well, hope for the best but plan for the worst if it doesn't work out.
Last edited by Shane C; 20th May 2012 at 14:59.
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Superpilot:
WELL SAID THAT MAN ! I could'nt agree more :-) I am a modular student doing my ATPL's, and i couldnt agree more with you.
I am a firm beleiver that there are jobs out there for everybody...in fact, if there isnt a job, create one ! :-) i am going to advertise the sh@t out of m qualifications when i qualify :-)
That was a brilliant reply superpilot, straight to the crux of the issue !!!
WELL SAID THAT MAN ! I could'nt agree more :-) I am a modular student doing my ATPL's, and i couldnt agree more with you.
I am a firm beleiver that there are jobs out there for everybody...in fact, if there isnt a job, create one ! :-) i am going to advertise the sh@t out of m qualifications when i qualify :-)
That was a brilliant reply superpilot, straight to the crux of the issue !!!
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Certainly wasn't my intention to turn this in to yet another dull Modular v Integrated "discussion".
I was merely responding to the OP who said that he has read pprune and come to the conclusion that he is too old to find work and that T&Cs are sufficiently rubbish to give up on aviation as a career.
Neither are true. Pilots have been telling the new intake that things aren't quite what they used to be for generations. And as for taking seriously anything said on pprune....!
FWIW I have met a bucket load of recently hired low-hour modular types (a fair few were the "wrong" side of 40!). The trick seems to be personal connections, working in some other capacity for your target airline, getting your name and face known. Or in other words, how it used to be! Sit at home blaming CTC if you prefer, it won't get you very far though.
I was merely responding to the OP who said that he has read pprune and come to the conclusion that he is too old to find work and that T&Cs are sufficiently rubbish to give up on aviation as a career.
Neither are true. Pilots have been telling the new intake that things aren't quite what they used to be for generations. And as for taking seriously anything said on pprune....!
FWIW I have met a bucket load of recently hired low-hour modular types (a fair few were the "wrong" side of 40!). The trick seems to be personal connections, working in some other capacity for your target airline, getting your name and face known. Or in other words, how it used to be! Sit at home blaming CTC if you prefer, it won't get you very far though.
Last edited by Artie Fufkin; 20th May 2012 at 17:28.
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Honestly, i am glad that a man from the industry says something encouraging. And i welcome anyone to prove that im wrong. But i still think for someone willing to be involved in aviation PPRuNE is a good source.Some people here have indeed very insightful and useful advice.
Last edited by Tacitus; 20th May 2012 at 18:32.
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LISTEN TO ATR42GUY AND ONLY TO ATR42GUY!!!!!!!!!!
Sooooooooooooooo many nowadays become pilots because of the uniform and "glamour"!! And guess what sooooooooooo many get disappointed
To be a pilot is a life style not a job.
Not fancy or glamoures and your wife/future wife will hate it!
Good luck!!
Sooooooooooooooo many nowadays become pilots because of the uniform and "glamour"!! And guess what sooooooooooo many get disappointed
To be a pilot is a life style not a job.
Not fancy or glamoures and your wife/future wife will hate it!
Good luck!!
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Your age will not be the problem. Let's just say you pay for the best best training there is and you ace every exam and flying test. And that you pay for an MCC course, type rating and line flying experience. Now what are you going to do? The dreamers who give you the advice " follow your dream" and other such guff are not being fair. There are virtually no jobs for inexperienced pilots and even fewer that pay money. Move in only when the dreamers move out.