Time to start Lion Air p2f Programme
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Come on guys, I know its really tempting to pay 2 fly but don't lose your hope from God just yet!! Everyone dreams of getting into a airline job the day they finish flight training but its never the case!! Theres people out there who waited 3/4 years to be just called for a interview! I don't want to sound depressing but the guys who are over 30 should be the ones worried!! If your 23/25 or even bit older there is still plenty of opportunities out there! Just don't rush into P2F just because your other flight school friends have Jet jobs or been offered the RHS with RYR!! Just keep it real!!
There is plenty of newly qualified Doctors working in tescos doing something they don't want to do but its life!!
The worst thing that makes it more depressing is people constantly asking if I have found a flying job yet!! and it does get veryyy depressing after awhile but its life! I'm not going jump to pay 50k+ to wear the fancy uniform!!
Keep your money in your pocket!! Theres people out there that has never seen or will properly see 50K in there life time! Just appreciate the roof over your head and food on the table!
There is plenty of newly qualified Doctors working in tescos doing something they don't want to do but its life!!
The worst thing that makes it more depressing is people constantly asking if I have found a flying job yet!! and it does get veryyy depressing after awhile but its life! I'm not going jump to pay 50k+ to wear the fancy uniform!!
Keep your money in your pocket!! Theres people out there that has never seen or will properly see 50K in there life time! Just appreciate the roof over your head and food on the table!
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I agree be careful, and 4 years might be to long there, unless you are 21 and single, than you will have loads of fun over there!
Here my main point though, 4 year contract, but who is going to force you stay there for that amount of time if you are unhappy?
Pack your bags with over 1500 hours and find job somewhere else! Simple!
I don't agree with this, however no use to make things worse than they really are! If you can afford it, it sure better economy than working as an FI for the next 5 years, and gaining hours on SEP only, although the experience would be great, not all want to sit and wait around as an FI, and still after many years no chance of a job!
Here my main point though, 4 year contract, but who is going to force you stay there for that amount of time if you are unhappy?
Pack your bags with over 1500 hours and find job somewhere else! Simple!
I don't agree with this, however no use to make things worse than they really are! If you can afford it, it sure better economy than working as an FI for the next 5 years, and gaining hours on SEP only, although the experience would be great, not all want to sit and wait around as an FI, and still after many years no chance of a job!
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Bond or no Bond, they are not legally enforceable!
You have paid for all your training, so on what grounds with they be able to enforce any kind of bond!
I believe however absurd it might seem to sound, such a bond would make you a "slave" As I am not considering this myself, I havent gone into depth about this, however after conversation with a lawyer friend of mine about this some time ago, he was pretty sure that no such bond would be legally enforceable!
In other words, pack your bags and leave whenever you want, Lion don't have a leg to stand on!
You have paid for all your training, so on what grounds with they be able to enforce any kind of bond!
I believe however absurd it might seem to sound, such a bond would make you a "slave" As I am not considering this myself, I havent gone into depth about this, however after conversation with a lawyer friend of mine about this some time ago, he was pretty sure that no such bond would be legally enforceable!
In other words, pack your bags and leave whenever you want, Lion don't have a leg to stand on!
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Only worry would be any issues as a result of leaving in such a way, i.e. references, converting licence from DGCA to JAA or what have you, perhaps not being able to visit Indonesia in the future...not sure really.
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Fair enough your reference from Lion will be screwed up! But do you think that will be a big issue?
Lion would never bother spending money taking it to court, so no reason why you should be barred from going to Indonesia! That's an absurd thought!
I would assume you would be leaving with another job in hand already or contract, not just leaving without anything to go to!
I have spoken to a few captains I know with regarding this, and most of them doubt that another company would really be to bothered, as you would be able to give a good explanation to the reason for leaving!
There are many reasons to use for leaving Indonesia, it is not exactly paradise on earth, and being European origin, it can be many reasons for getting close to home etc. No contract is water tight, specially under such terms.
If you get bonded for $100.000, than that sounds like a slavery contract, which is not enforceable.
As Lion Air is already blacklisted, I am sure if you are very creative you should be able to give many good reasons for wanting to leave the company early!
Lion would never bother spending money taking it to court, so no reason why you should be barred from going to Indonesia! That's an absurd thought!
I would assume you would be leaving with another job in hand already or contract, not just leaving without anything to go to!
I have spoken to a few captains I know with regarding this, and most of them doubt that another company would really be to bothered, as you would be able to give a good explanation to the reason for leaving!
There are many reasons to use for leaving Indonesia, it is not exactly paradise on earth, and being European origin, it can be many reasons for getting close to home etc. No contract is water tight, specially under such terms.
If you get bonded for $100.000, than that sounds like a slavery contract, which is not enforceable.
As Lion Air is already blacklisted, I am sure if you are very creative you should be able to give many good reasons for wanting to leave the company early!
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I think you will find that your wrong there pal, Lion air will take you court.
They did it to a pilot and they also claimed for loss of earnings.
If you want to fly in Jakarta then expect to complete the contract or pay the $50k to get out of the contract.
If we guys try to play the smart game by just gaining hours and then leaving them, then its only going get tougher for us.
sometimes it makes sense why we cant get jobs anywhere these days its because all we want is hours and when we do get them we just get up and come back to fly in the JAA airspace and leave these guys thinking don't employ anyone from Europe.
But there isn't any jobs over here.
Interesting world don't you think guys.
They did it to a pilot and they also claimed for loss of earnings.
If you want to fly in Jakarta then expect to complete the contract or pay the $50k to get out of the contract.
If we guys try to play the smart game by just gaining hours and then leaving them, then its only going get tougher for us.
sometimes it makes sense why we cant get jobs anywhere these days its because all we want is hours and when we do get them we just get up and come back to fly in the JAA airspace and leave these guys thinking don't employ anyone from Europe.
But there isn't any jobs over here.
Interesting world don't you think guys.
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Believe me, if they take you to court, you will have a field day!
Check out a bit information about slave trade contracts, they have not provided you with anything!
You get a job in the Middle East or Europe, you really think Lion Air are going to spend thousands to take you to court?
Tell me how they can legally bond you, when you have paid for ALL the training yourself, and you have also paid them for 500 hours line-training!
Sorry, but if I went to accept such terms, my loyalty for them would have been as shallow as their misuse of us pilots!
I would have left as soon as ANYTHING better came along! I have been in Jakarta, believe me, it is not the place you would spend 4 years if you have a choice of going somewhere else!
As Captain I know also said, most airlines, would see the benefit of hiring you, you have experience, you are rated, and if locally, they would be stealing a pilot from the competition, already fully trained!
The fact is that Lion does NOT pay for your training, that's the main reason that any such bond would be illegal, and as far as my friend the lawyer could understand, considered slave-trade!
Bonded labour or debt bondage
This is when a person's work is the security for a debt - effectively the person has not been sold, but they are on 'a long lease' which they cannot bring to an end, and so cannot leave their 'employer'
The conditions of employment can be such that the labourer can't pay off their debt and is stuck for life, because of low wages, deductions for food and lodging, and high interest rates
BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Modern slavery
So if such a bond of $100.000 really exist, I say good luck to Lion to try to take that pilot to court! I would fancy my chance of actually counter suing them!
And only an IDIOT would go to Indonesia for such a "imaginary trial!"
Get a lawyer to send them a couple of strong letters, and you will NEVER hear from Lion again!
And 737max; you think pilots doing this will ruin your chances, than you already a lost case! Lion air is ruining your chances by behaving unethical, and actually forcing on you a slave contract, that is illegal! (in the modern world)
Check out a bit information about slave trade contracts, they have not provided you with anything!
You get a job in the Middle East or Europe, you really think Lion Air are going to spend thousands to take you to court?
Tell me how they can legally bond you, when you have paid for ALL the training yourself, and you have also paid them for 500 hours line-training!
Sorry, but if I went to accept such terms, my loyalty for them would have been as shallow as their misuse of us pilots!
I would have left as soon as ANYTHING better came along! I have been in Jakarta, believe me, it is not the place you would spend 4 years if you have a choice of going somewhere else!
As Captain I know also said, most airlines, would see the benefit of hiring you, you have experience, you are rated, and if locally, they would be stealing a pilot from the competition, already fully trained!
The fact is that Lion does NOT pay for your training, that's the main reason that any such bond would be illegal, and as far as my friend the lawyer could understand, considered slave-trade!
Bonded labour or debt bondage
This is when a person's work is the security for a debt - effectively the person has not been sold, but they are on 'a long lease' which they cannot bring to an end, and so cannot leave their 'employer'
The conditions of employment can be such that the labourer can't pay off their debt and is stuck for life, because of low wages, deductions for food and lodging, and high interest rates
BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Modern slavery
So if such a bond of $100.000 really exist, I say good luck to Lion to try to take that pilot to court! I would fancy my chance of actually counter suing them!
And only an IDIOT would go to Indonesia for such a "imaginary trial!"
Get a lawyer to send them a couple of strong letters, and you will NEVER hear from Lion again!
And 737max; you think pilots doing this will ruin your chances, than you already a lost case! Lion air is ruining your chances by behaving unethical, and actually forcing on you a slave contract, that is illegal! (in the modern world)
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You would assume you would only leave if you had another job lined up!
I assume not all people in HR are completely a.szzzzes!
Unreasonable terms and conditions, how much would they care about a reference from a company such as Lion Air, if at all they would give you one anyway!
I assume not all people in HR are completely a.szzzzes!
Unreasonable terms and conditions, how much would they care about a reference from a company such as Lion Air, if at all they would give you one anyway!
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Truckflyer,
You do not sign the contract until you have completed your 500hrs, then you will have a choice to sign it or you can still work for them but you will not get paid!! But because so many pilots think they are smart by not signing and are still working for free lion air will get rid of you simple as that!!
Now back to the contract you are NOT signing a bond you are signing to that if you leave lion air or break the contract you will pay $50k end of!!
BTW I don't know why you are bringing EU or UK laws into it. they cant protect you.
I still think going to Jakarta is the best option. I know a lot of pilots won't like the idea of 4 Years but that's their choice. I still think its wrong for pilots to go there for just for 1000 hrs or so and then break the contract because its only going to more tough for the next batch and so on.
You do not sign the contract until you have completed your 500hrs, then you will have a choice to sign it or you can still work for them but you will not get paid!! But because so many pilots think they are smart by not signing and are still working for free lion air will get rid of you simple as that!!
Now back to the contract you are NOT signing a bond you are signing to that if you leave lion air or break the contract you will pay $50k end of!!
BTW I don't know why you are bringing EU or UK laws into it. they cant protect you.
I still think going to Jakarta is the best option. I know a lot of pilots won't like the idea of 4 Years but that's their choice. I still think its wrong for pilots to go there for just for 1000 hrs or so and then break the contract because its only going to more tough for the next batch and so on.
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737max;
Exactly, Lion will not have a leg to stand on.
Who in their life will care about financial commitment to a company in Indonesia if they should against all odds win such case, which I highly doubt, unless it is a real kangaroo court!
I am a bit surprised how so many can have such misplaced loyalty towards a company that is purely taking advantage of the pilots in such manner!
If pilot returns to Europe, how do you in your wildest imagination believe that Lion air could enforce such a draconian fine on the pilot? Maybe they could win in their own court, however it would mean NOTHING in any other country in the world! FACT!
For such a company I believe it would be use and abuse, same way as they use and abuse pilots!
Note that I would NEVER say this about any normal company, and as mentioned before, completely against my norms and ethics, but if a company has no loyalty or ethics towards you, why do they deserve the same against them!
Exactly, Lion will not have a leg to stand on.
Who in their life will care about financial commitment to a company in Indonesia if they should against all odds win such case, which I highly doubt, unless it is a real kangaroo court!
I am a bit surprised how so many can have such misplaced loyalty towards a company that is purely taking advantage of the pilots in such manner!
If pilot returns to Europe, how do you in your wildest imagination believe that Lion air could enforce such a draconian fine on the pilot? Maybe they could win in their own court, however it would mean NOTHING in any other country in the world! FACT!
For such a company I believe it would be use and abuse, same way as they use and abuse pilots!
Note that I would NEVER say this about any normal company, and as mentioned before, completely against my norms and ethics, but if a company has no loyalty or ethics towards you, why do they deserve the same against them!
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737max;
And your sentiment about getting more tough for the next batch!!! Really? Seriously? What they going to keep your passport or something else to make sure you don't leave!
My friend, this is the definition of modern slave-trade.
If somebody are that DUMB, sorry, but they go there, and think that they must stay loyal to Lion Air, to protect the next bunch of P2F pilots, well that is the most stupid thing I have ever heard!
When/if you decide to do such a program, you are already deciding to look out for yourself! With the first offer these pilots get with a proper company, after 1000 - 1500 hours, they will be OFF! If you think that you read spend 2.5 years in Lion, than going to BA, Emirates or another good company, than it shows you are not in touch with reality!
Such an economical case in some third world country would be insignificant, what you explained with the contract is at least in Europe not legal, and that's what I would worry about!
And your sentiment about getting more tough for the next batch!!! Really? Seriously? What they going to keep your passport or something else to make sure you don't leave!
My friend, this is the definition of modern slave-trade.
If somebody are that DUMB, sorry, but they go there, and think that they must stay loyal to Lion Air, to protect the next bunch of P2F pilots, well that is the most stupid thing I have ever heard!
When/if you decide to do such a program, you are already deciding to look out for yourself! With the first offer these pilots get with a proper company, after 1000 - 1500 hours, they will be OFF! If you think that you read spend 2.5 years in Lion, than going to BA, Emirates or another good company, than it shows you are not in touch with reality!
Such an economical case in some third world country would be insignificant, what you explained with the contract is at least in Europe not legal, and that's what I would worry about!
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in these countries(asia), usually if you break their contract, they report to their DCA and the DCA will be sure you never get a job again.
They call imigration office and can block you at the departure custom and bring you to justice with a stop of 3 months in a nice little cell that you will share with very nice mates.This apply only if you own money to a company.At Lion, I am sure they will be happy if you leave after 3 days, and they will keep your money.
Lion Air will be probably your final stop in your career, with all the bad habits learned there (like going below MDA or DH "tuck under"?), I am sure BA will be interested by you (sarcasm!!!), they are desperate for Lion Air pilots(double sarcasm!)
They call imigration office and can block you at the departure custom and bring you to justice with a stop of 3 months in a nice little cell that you will share with very nice mates.This apply only if you own money to a company.At Lion, I am sure they will be happy if you leave after 3 days, and they will keep your money.
Lion Air will be probably your final stop in your career, with all the bad habits learned there (like going below MDA or DH "tuck under"?), I am sure BA will be interested by you (sarcasm!!!), they are desperate for Lion Air pilots(double sarcasm!)
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Just get things straight, I am not considering going there.
And how will customs stop you if you already left the country?
Have you worked there yourself since you point facts of breach of procedures? That's not what people I know tell me, who currently fly for them!
Anyway I am not supporting Lion in anyway or shape, I visited Jakarta, and have no desire to return there ever, I can imagine somebody there for 2- 3 years would share the same sentiment!
And how will customs stop you if you already left the country?
Have you worked there yourself since you point facts of breach of procedures? That's not what people I know tell me, who currently fly for them!
Anyway I am not supporting Lion in anyway or shape, I visited Jakarta, and have no desire to return there ever, I can imagine somebody there for 2- 3 years would share the same sentiment!
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Fair enough your reference from Lion will be screwed up! But do you think that will be a big issue?
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Well I still stand by opinion that any such clause in a contract would not be legal, of course in countries like Indonesia they have different laws.
I still think 2000 hours on 737, without a reference, is better than 0 hours searching for some job that does not exist!
Anyway not really my problem, as I am not considering Lion beer at all, but if it was my choice I would use them just as they use pilots, no more, no less!
What comes around goes around!
I still think 2000 hours on 737, without a reference, is better than 0 hours searching for some job that does not exist!
Anyway not really my problem, as I am not considering Lion beer at all, but if it was my choice I would use them just as they use pilots, no more, no less!
What comes around goes around!
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Mutt,
Disgruntled, not really! Yes I read WWW posts, and he has always had something good to say, even though we might not like all we read.
I firmly believe my chance will come, hopefully sooner rather than later, however I am probably in a better situation than most who gotten into this!
It is tiring to look for that first job, I have the money to do Lion if I wanted, but for me there are more important things than flying that takes priority, and that is my wife and daughter! So until the right chance comes, I will not jet out to Lion, and if against all the odds I had done it, I would have been very pragmatic about it, just my point of view!
Disgruntled, not really! Yes I read WWW posts, and he has always had something good to say, even though we might not like all we read.
I firmly believe my chance will come, hopefully sooner rather than later, however I am probably in a better situation than most who gotten into this!
It is tiring to look for that first job, I have the money to do Lion if I wanted, but for me there are more important things than flying that takes priority, and that is my wife and daughter! So until the right chance comes, I will not jet out to Lion, and if against all the odds I had done it, I would have been very pragmatic about it, just my point of view!
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I firmly believe my chance will come, hopefully sooner rather than later, however I am probably in a better situation than most who gotten into this!
good luck because in europe nobody is interested by old pilot unless you have strong experience on jar25 a/c.
Last edited by wingreencard; 14th Apr 2012 at 04:28.