Am I mad?
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we will have a 25 years carrier in the aviation industry. I think it's enough...
)
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I'm just coming up to 37, completed ATPL Theory last year (12 months distance learning). I have a full time job, and am presently working on my CPL as a modular course on weekends. My short term aims are to go into instructing, which I am open minded enough to accept might be medium or even long term. But in the immediate future my career is non-aviation, and the training is part time to minimise the risks. I'm lucky in that I have the PPL and the hours already.
Much of the advice given already makes sense. Get your medical, do your PPL, see if it really does turn you on. See also how long it takes you to assimilate new concepts for both the theory and the flying. But with your commitments I wouldn't recommend leaving your current job or risking big debt unless you really really have to do it with your heart and soul. Even then, only do it if you know you have a solid back-up plan.
My decision to do it was a cumulative process where the need to do it grew over several years until I realised if I didn't try I wouldn't be able to look the 50 year old me in the eye. It wasn't on a whim, or on impulse, but there was a tipping point when the decision was made. If you are in that place, you'll know what's right for you. If not, as others say, get a PPL, buy a share in something that floats your boat, and enjoy flying for the sheer joy of the challenge and freedom of flight itself. You won't regret it.
Much of the advice given already makes sense. Get your medical, do your PPL, see if it really does turn you on. See also how long it takes you to assimilate new concepts for both the theory and the flying. But with your commitments I wouldn't recommend leaving your current job or risking big debt unless you really really have to do it with your heart and soul. Even then, only do it if you know you have a solid back-up plan.
My decision to do it was a cumulative process where the need to do it grew over several years until I realised if I didn't try I wouldn't be able to look the 50 year old me in the eye. It wasn't on a whim, or on impulse, but there was a tipping point when the decision was made. If you are in that place, you'll know what's right for you. If not, as others say, get a PPL, buy a share in something that floats your boat, and enjoy flying for the sheer joy of the challenge and freedom of flight itself. You won't regret it.
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Wow! Thanks everyone for you input. Talk about bursting my bubble.. seriously I really appreciate all your views, even you 'grass strip basher'.
In terms of what I think the reality is, I will probably take the middle ground here as somewhere near the truth. On the positive side I have had one of the flight schools here telling me that the worse case scenario would be that I could earn 6k a month as an instructor and of course on the negative but probably realistic side I have had all of your comments.
It has certainly been a reality check to ask you guys your views. I value the feedback from 'corsair' on my age being a factor in my ability to learn as quick as the kids.
So the dream is over but I will go and do my PPL and medical and just enjoy it
Thanks again folks and happy flying.
In terms of what I think the reality is, I will probably take the middle ground here as somewhere near the truth. On the positive side I have had one of the flight schools here telling me that the worse case scenario would be that I could earn 6k a month as an instructor and of course on the negative but probably realistic side I have had all of your comments.
It has certainly been a reality check to ask you guys your views. I value the feedback from 'corsair' on my age being a factor in my ability to learn as quick as the kids.
So the dream is over but I will go and do my PPL and medical and just enjoy it
Thanks again folks and happy flying.
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"WhiskyTangoFoxtrott" - I already done my IR, and done first renewal in the sim, which is the affordable renewal, now time and money starts counting.
Next 12 months need to stay current for licence renewal + IR renewal in aircraft with in 12 months. Happy days, if no job before that!
"Trayman" - Your flight school told you worst case scenario you could earn 6k a month as an instructor? (You mean £6000 a month as an instructor?)
I will await your answer, in case you have mistype d something before commenting further!
If that was worst case scenario, holy crap I would be running to get my FI rating! Not sure what school is going to pay that kind of salary as an instructor, but I would be glad to hear!
The flying part will take a little more time, with guys of our age, this I have seen from own experiences, and some of my mates. Than again, I have seen younger guys also spending more time. Instructor salary, will barely give you food on the table, from what I have seen of my mates!
Also comes in some regulations, from passing last ATPL theory exams, you need to complete CPL and IR within 3 years, so you can't postpone things indefinite. After 3 years you have to redo all your ATPL exams again, that would not be something I would ever let happen!
To become an instructor, you need CPL, and most ATPL exams, however you do not need an IR rating.
But to apply for a with airlines / taxi / bizjet job you need to have a valid IR rating and class 1 medical!
Your private life will suffer, friends will get bored with you, wife will want to divorce you, it is a high price to pay, but some of us will do anything for who we love!
Next 12 months need to stay current for licence renewal + IR renewal in aircraft with in 12 months. Happy days, if no job before that!
"Trayman" - Your flight school told you worst case scenario you could earn 6k a month as an instructor? (You mean £6000 a month as an instructor?)
I will await your answer, in case you have mistype d something before commenting further!
If that was worst case scenario, holy crap I would be running to get my FI rating! Not sure what school is going to pay that kind of salary as an instructor, but I would be glad to hear!
The flying part will take a little more time, with guys of our age, this I have seen from own experiences, and some of my mates. Than again, I have seen younger guys also spending more time. Instructor salary, will barely give you food on the table, from what I have seen of my mates!
Also comes in some regulations, from passing last ATPL theory exams, you need to complete CPL and IR within 3 years, so you can't postpone things indefinite. After 3 years you have to redo all your ATPL exams again, that would not be something I would ever let happen!
To become an instructor, you need CPL, and most ATPL exams, however you do not need an IR rating.
But to apply for a with airlines / taxi / bizjet job you need to have a valid IR rating and class 1 medical!
Your private life will suffer, friends will get bored with you, wife will want to divorce you, it is a high price to pay, but some of us will do anything for who we love!
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6K a month clear, as an instructor??!! That would equal well over 100 grand a year pre tax. I literally didn't earn 10% of that amount in my instructing days and I don't think the market has changed that much since ...
Please tell me where that school might be, because I'll walk away from my A330 and go and work there myself.
Please tell me where that school might be, because I'll walk away from my A330 and go and work there myself.
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6k a month !!
Just to be clear, I was told that if I completed the training and didn't gain employment through the likes of Aer Arann or one of the Cargo companies I could earn 6 thousand euro a month as a flight instructor.
I don't particularly want to name the company, however there are only 3 in Ireland..
I can assure you Taybird that this was no whim or impulse, it's been eating away at me for many many years and obviously my big regret is that I didn't run with it when I was a younger man.
I lived in the states for a year 5 years ago, I should have done it then for a fraction of the price being charged here.
Ce la vie
I don't particularly want to name the company, however there are only 3 in Ireland..
I can assure you Taybird that this was no whim or impulse, it's been eating away at me for many many years and obviously my big regret is that I didn't run with it when I was a younger man.
I lived in the states for a year 5 years ago, I should have done it then for a fraction of the price being charged here.
Ce la vie
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6000€ a month is impossible as a FI.
I would say between 0 and 1300€.
For an ex 747 BA captain who has lost his medical and teach in a prestigious flight school, perhaps 6000€, but i don't think so, i would say half of it.
In some schools, you just fly (and teach) for free...
I would say between 0 and 1300€.
For an ex 747 BA captain who has lost his medical and teach in a prestigious flight school, perhaps 6000€, but i don't think so, i would say half of it.
In some schools, you just fly (and teach) for free...
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Well if they told you that pay as instructor, I would RUN AWAY from the as fast as possible, because they are a bunch of liars and con men!
Sure a few will agree with me on this one!
That would be more than any airline would be paying you for the first 10 years or so!
Sure a few will agree with me on this one!
That would be more than any airline would be paying you for the first 10 years or so!
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Quote - I can assure you Taybird that this was no whim or impulse, it's been eating away at me for many many years and obviously my big regret is that I didn't run with it when I was a younger man.
Absolutely, so you'll know exactly what I mean. If you can minimise the risks to you and your family, and if you know that you won't forgive yourself for not trying, I say go for it. But do have your eyes wide open...
On that note, €6k per month seems awfully high. I would expect that to be more likely to be an annual take-home.
If you do decide to go for it, welcome to the craziness! And the very best of luck to you. Anyone who makes it will need that in addition to the hard work, blood, sweat and tears.
Absolutely, so you'll know exactly what I mean. If you can minimise the risks to you and your family, and if you know that you won't forgive yourself for not trying, I say go for it. But do have your eyes wide open...
On that note, €6k per month seems awfully high. I would expect that to be more likely to be an annual take-home.
If you do decide to go for it, welcome to the craziness! And the very best of luck to you. Anyone who makes it will need that in addition to the hard work, blood, sweat and tears.
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Utter utter madness.... 6,000 a month.... they are playing you like a sucker. 6,000 a year is more reasonable. I thought it was a typo when you wrote it! That you didn't question it/laugh in their faces at the time tells me that you have a SERIOUS amount of research to do about the industry before you even contemplate putting your marriage and kids financial well being at risk. 
I am not trying to be rude but seriously do some proper research as to what you might ultimately get paid IF (and its a big IF) you are one of the maybe 10-15% over 40s that ends up landing a job. Take debt repayment cost, mortgages costs etc off that and see if you have enough money to feed your kids....
I am not trying to be rude but seriously do some proper research as to what you might ultimately get paid IF (and its a big IF) you are one of the maybe 10-15% over 40s that ends up landing a job. Take debt repayment cost, mortgages costs etc off that and see if you have enough money to feed your kids....
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Moving On
Grass strip basher, no one is playing me like a sucker. I am doing my research by coming on forums like this and assessing the state of play.
Why would I question there figures, two weeks ago I new very little about the industry..but I am learning fast!
What saddens me is that there are plenty of kids out there who will not ask the hard questions and will be sucked in by these schools and the promise of jobs.
Although people talk about the schools being cynical, there are a number of negative posts on this forum to wannabes like me which are just copied and pasted as a response to someone wanting to get into the industry. That stinks of a 'closed shop' and a 'jobs for the boys' mentality. That doesn't help someone make an informed decision either.
Anyway maybe you didn't see my earlier post but having taken advice from people on here and elsewhere I realise that even though I could go ahead and do it, I would never get the opportunity to pay 100k back. (100k that could go to my kids future.)
Instead, I am just going to do my PPL and enjoy it. (I might even go over to the U.S. for a month and do it.) You never know what might happen down the road..
Happy flying.
Why would I question there figures, two weeks ago I new very little about the industry..but I am learning fast!
What saddens me is that there are plenty of kids out there who will not ask the hard questions and will be sucked in by these schools and the promise of jobs.
Although people talk about the schools being cynical, there are a number of negative posts on this forum to wannabes like me which are just copied and pasted as a response to someone wanting to get into the industry. That stinks of a 'closed shop' and a 'jobs for the boys' mentality. That doesn't help someone make an informed decision either.
Anyway maybe you didn't see my earlier post but having taken advice from people on here and elsewhere I realise that even though I could go ahead and do it, I would never get the opportunity to pay 100k back. (100k that could go to my kids future.)
Instead, I am just going to do my PPL and enjoy it. (I might even go over to the U.S. for a month and do it.) You never know what might happen down the road..
Happy flying.
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There will be a few "negative posts", specially when such lies like the 6000 a month for an instructor as the worst case scenario.
I would believe there would be some anger from the community towards such a school that would give you such information, not towards you, to be honest you could probably not know better at that moment.
However visiting some of the other places in these forums like Terms and Endearment, where you will very easy get an idea of the conditions faced pilots today.
Having friends who have done the US route, it is honestly not going to help your with regards to CPL etc., for PPL it could be a good idea, because you might get it cheaper and faster over there. However CPL / IR from US has to be converted in Europe, before you can fly commercially in Europe. So you will need to do the whole ATPL process again, and my friend who was similar age, spent much more time on his conversion, he might as well have skipped all the US training, because he did not save much in the end, if any at all.
With US CPL licence, you can only fly US registered aircraft, and they are hard to find in Europe/UK - at least where somebody with low experience will be able to get work with.
You should not take some of the attacks personally at you, you asked for answers, and most people have been very honest with their answers to you, without decorating it.
Myself I completed my training, spent the money for training, had a young family, but also had a small business I was able run at the same time. So it depends very much on your personal circumstances. I had the money, it has been hard times, but I have no regrets of doing it! Sure I could have probably have spent the money on something more fun, and had less worries over those years, and the years to come - but if we don't try we will never know.
I do agree that maybe you should have felt a small alarm bell when the figure 6000 a month as an instructor was mentioned, I mean if you look around in today's society, there are not many jobs that will pay you that kind of salary!
I do not feel any sympathy for a school who have told you this, and it would be fair to warn other's about what school this is, because to be honest it is some of the biggest BS I have heard.
It is very much a closed shop at the moment to get in, unless you have money to pay your way inside, it is the part many of us dislike, specially us standing on the outside!
Now where did you get the figure 100K from?
Your figures seems to becoming from out of a lottery bowl! You are looking at half of that amount, from zero to hero, probably 65K if you include TR.
Enjoy your PPL and some GA flying first, a friend of mine over 50, did CPL and FIC - chose not to do his IR, and does instructing when he can for the fun of it. So there are many ways into aviation, but regardless of any of this, would be class 1 medical before you think any further and then your PPL.
I would believe there would be some anger from the community towards such a school that would give you such information, not towards you, to be honest you could probably not know better at that moment.
However visiting some of the other places in these forums like Terms and Endearment, where you will very easy get an idea of the conditions faced pilots today.
Having friends who have done the US route, it is honestly not going to help your with regards to CPL etc., for PPL it could be a good idea, because you might get it cheaper and faster over there. However CPL / IR from US has to be converted in Europe, before you can fly commercially in Europe. So you will need to do the whole ATPL process again, and my friend who was similar age, spent much more time on his conversion, he might as well have skipped all the US training, because he did not save much in the end, if any at all.
With US CPL licence, you can only fly US registered aircraft, and they are hard to find in Europe/UK - at least where somebody with low experience will be able to get work with.
You should not take some of the attacks personally at you, you asked for answers, and most people have been very honest with their answers to you, without decorating it.
Myself I completed my training, spent the money for training, had a young family, but also had a small business I was able run at the same time. So it depends very much on your personal circumstances. I had the money, it has been hard times, but I have no regrets of doing it! Sure I could have probably have spent the money on something more fun, and had less worries over those years, and the years to come - but if we don't try we will never know.
I do agree that maybe you should have felt a small alarm bell when the figure 6000 a month as an instructor was mentioned, I mean if you look around in today's society, there are not many jobs that will pay you that kind of salary!
I do not feel any sympathy for a school who have told you this, and it would be fair to warn other's about what school this is, because to be honest it is some of the biggest BS I have heard.
It is very much a closed shop at the moment to get in, unless you have money to pay your way inside, it is the part many of us dislike, specially us standing on the outside!
Now where did you get the figure 100K from?
Your figures seems to becoming from out of a lottery bowl! You are looking at half of that amount, from zero to hero, probably 65K if you include TR.
Enjoy your PPL and some GA flying first, a friend of mine over 50, did CPL and FIC - chose not to do his IR, and does instructing when he can for the fun of it. So there are many ways into aviation, but regardless of any of this, would be class 1 medical before you think any further and then your PPL.
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Thanks truckflyer for the advice re training in the U.S. However, I only intend to do my PPL there.
I don't take any comments here personally?? I appreciate every bit of advice I have received (as I have said repeatedly!)
My figure of 100k euro comes from the 60k to get yourself from zero to hero, 20k + to get your ratings for a particular jet/tp whatever and another 20k to live on during the year/year an half of training.
Even if this figure is way off whack, how much does it cost to maintain them in the following years you don't have a job..?
As you said "you had the money" most people don't!
I don't take any comments here personally?? I appreciate every bit of advice I have received (as I have said repeatedly!)
My figure of 100k euro comes from the 60k to get yourself from zero to hero, 20k + to get your ratings for a particular jet/tp whatever and another 20k to live on during the year/year an half of training.
Even if this figure is way off whack, how much does it cost to maintain them in the following years you don't have a job..?
As you said "you had the money" most people don't!
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chasin the dream.....
Hi trayman ,
I think people will have their own opinions on this one, based on their own personal experiences. Those that have succeeded and have a flying job will say, yeah go ahead , its a long hard commitment but worth the sacrifice and worth the gamble. There are those on the other hand ( trying for years, washed out and will always be chasing the dream) that may advise you to hang on to your hard earned cash as its not worth the hassle and financial burden.
I myself have experienced both sides of the coin. I've spent years chasing the dream, knocking on doors and experienced the lows of unemployment. I've also lived the dream having been 'lucky' enough to land a copilot position on a biz jet. Unfortunately the latter was short lived due to recession and now find myself in the same place I started, unemployed and not a cent to my name. I now find myself on the wrong side of 40 and am unsure of my future flying career.
It certainly isnt for the fainthearted. If you have the funds and are willing to gamble it ,can put down what you can afford to lose ,then go ahead and do it. If not, and you have to borrow from a bank ,then dont.
It certainly has been one hell of a ride and a real life experience.
Pm me at any time.....
I think people will have their own opinions on this one, based on their own personal experiences. Those that have succeeded and have a flying job will say, yeah go ahead , its a long hard commitment but worth the sacrifice and worth the gamble. There are those on the other hand ( trying for years, washed out and will always be chasing the dream) that may advise you to hang on to your hard earned cash as its not worth the hassle and financial burden.
I myself have experienced both sides of the coin. I've spent years chasing the dream, knocking on doors and experienced the lows of unemployment. I've also lived the dream having been 'lucky' enough to land a copilot position on a biz jet. Unfortunately the latter was short lived due to recession and now find myself in the same place I started, unemployed and not a cent to my name. I now find myself on the wrong side of 40 and am unsure of my future flying career.
It certainly isnt for the fainthearted. If you have the funds and are willing to gamble it ,can put down what you can afford to lose ,then go ahead and do it. If not, and you have to borrow from a bank ,then dont.
It certainly has been one hell of a ride and a real life experience.
Pm me at any time.....
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First year does not cost much to maintain, but the longer you are outside the more it will take.
I would guess probably around £3000 - £5000, when you start on your second year.
But the problem after the training, is where do you want to spend your money, what will be the best next step!
Feel free to PM me also anytime.
Nothing is impossible! But it ain't going to be easy!
I would guess probably around £3000 - £5000, when you start on your second year.
But the problem after the training, is where do you want to spend your money, what will be the best next step!
Feel free to PM me also anytime.
Nothing is impossible! But it ain't going to be easy!