No jobs yet.... type rating? eaglejet? what should I do?

[pablo2973]

Forget Europe

Hi Chris ,I believe we all agree that in an ideal aviation world, it should be enough with your comercial multi & instrument licence to get a flying job in Europe ,unfortunately for you ,those days are long gone ,I did my initial training in USA back in 1993-94 converted to JAA in 2001 just after 9/11 and I´ve got my first flying job in 2009 after I tried and tried on internet like you with 550hTT and NO type rating to offer , unfortunately for me ,I had to earn that money working ,thats why it took me so long ,after completing one course ,had to save for the next one then MCC then renewals medicals then ATR type and the list goes on and on as you know .......if you can search on internet soon you`ll find out the best type ratings are A320 B737 ATR and Q400, but forget about getting your first flying job in Europe with no hours on type ,unless you are very very lucky ,start looking for chances in Asia ,Africa basically where no one wants to go .......
Good luck

[angelorange]

RYR P2F?

Ryan Air is a slightly lesser form of P2F: you pay for CV, Interview, TR and then you are um not an employee but go into a holding pool under current CAE scheme as a contractor.

Wait for the call whilst the debt mounts........

[angelorange]

Hope is not a fallacy, but determination and endurance is required.

Cherry picker

Keep stacking shelves if it pays the bills ! I worked many low paid jobs in a previous recession from welding Ford cars to postman. One US company in the UK gave just 5 days leave a year - I took unpaid leave to get some flight training in. Almost 4 years looking for better jobs - and they did eventually come after many 100s of CVs. This was back in the day when a CPL needed 700h minimum time.

Then National to JAR licence changes meant I missed the ATPL by about 50 night hours and didn't get a JAR one for another 7 years (9/11, SARS, requirement for JAR25 and 500h Multi Crew)! Since then I've been paid pretty well to fly many machines from puddle jumpers, through TPs to Jets.

If you love flying you may have to put ambitions on hold for a while but they don't have to die for the sake of a LoCo CEOs P2F bonus!

[TheAnimal]

because i got 2 friends they had there training in there so from there experience and by looking them where they are right NOW so i decided to give him some advice you see !!

still its one of the advice from me mate !! rest is upto him !!

God gifted everyone with brain !! get advices from ppl and do what is right for ya !!

[angelorange]

YellowSub: "To those who say 'stop being lazy, go and tow gliders or do aerial photography' please do a quick calculation of how many of these jobs are going nation/worldwide and how many people would be more than willing to do this for free."

Flying for free is not half as bad as P2F ! How many glider pilots/owners do you know? How many parachutists have you bought a beer for (post jump!).

As an FI you may start on £10 per trial lesson and end up working for OAA for £50k as an IRI.

Why pay for BigNumber to go on holiday to his villa in S France?

The key is not to spend big money in a recession with no prospect of paying it off in the next 5 years. Take the small steps - less outlay, less risk. Even if you only manage to fly 12 hrs a year but find other paid work to keep the vision going it's a positive step.

[Desert Budgie]

I struggle to see how a pay2fly scheme will help anyone in Europe in the short term. Short term being the next 1 to 2 years.

I feel for the guys staring at their computers for hours a week waiting for a miracle. I did the same thing for 2 years from 2004 to 2006. I realised how tough the market was (and those were the good times) and managed to get a job which I enjoyed in the consular section of one of our embassies which paid the bills and kept me flying. I wasn't flying for a living, but tried not to dwell too much on that, because I knew I was in the same boat as everyone else.

Finally I got my opportunity flying turbo props. Of course now I have a new complaint, I'm stuck flying turbo props! I have nearly 5000 hours, ATPL, 2500 hours command on part 23 and 25 aircraft, TRE certificate and nobody with shiny jet aircraft will look at me because I dont have enough Jar 25 time, or EFIS time or 1000 hrs plus on medium jet. The list is endless. I have never failed an IR, TR or anything, I have great references but I can't get my foot in the door.

There is a way off of my turboprop however. PAY2FLY! can you believe it. With all that time, command experience, instructor and examiner and if I want to get an interview in our current economic climate I have to fork out over 25,000 euros to fly a 737 for 8 months for nothing. I can't afford to support my family with the current T and C's offered to F/O's in Europe partly due to the countless number of newbies willing to fly for nothing.

Now, before I get attacked by the wannabes for sounding ungrateful considering I am flying for a living, believe me I'm not. I love my job, I thank my lucky stars that I have a job at a stable company and can support a family with a reasonably good lifestyle. I feel so fortunate I am not in the same boat as those guys at Spanair, Malev or the 1000's of guys looking for work.

I seem to be straying from my initial point of Pay2fly not helping you too much in the next couple of years. When I look at the websites for most airlines in the UK, they explain that they have fulfilled their pilot quotas for the foreseeable future. Next point is that many of the carriers are opting for these mentored integrated schemes which leaves the self sponsored or modular guys with little chance at the moment. Last point is there are 1000's of guys like myself, or the poor folks from the likes of Spanair practically bulldozing the doors of these carriers down.

Finally, at my current employer I am involved in recruitment and filtering through CVs. We have an unbelievable amount of guys apply with an A320 or 737 rating and 500 hours on type. Funny that considering we don't even fly those types. Of course these have been out of work for quite a while from carriers that didn't announce any layoffs. I wonder if this is telling us something about these pay2fly schemes.....?

[captain.weird]

Concorde,

I'm really glad to hear that it goes all well for you and that you don't look back anymore! But my question is: how does your family feel about this? Do you have a women, children and things like that?

[Ollie23]

An integrated course, a self funded type rating and then a pay to fly line programme... to get a one year contract in Indonesia.

That should put things in perspective for anyone who had any doubt about the state of this industry!

[Desert Budgie]

I'm going to continue on a little from my post #27 because the more I browse the forums today the more I see this very same topic coming up again and again!

Quick question. Many people keep saying they want to apply for the pay2fly schemes because companies want 500 hours on type. Please enlighten me. How many airlines are currently recruiting pilots with 500 hours on a 737 or an A320? I dont know any. There are adverts for pilots with 1500 to 2000 hours total time of which 500 should be on type. If you are a fresh fATPL holder, please don't be so naive to think that the 750 hours TT you have on completion of the pay2fly scheme is enough to land you a job. Now your stuck with a type rating that is about to lapse, not enough time to be hired by a employer recruiting direct entry F/O's and a debt you can't pay off because you have no career to do so.

Secondly, please avoid telling the pilots who are fortunate enough to be employed by an airline to stop airing their views regarding pay2fly and that their advice, which many of you don't want to hear, is useless as it is all negative and doom and gloom. May I remind you that these pilots are the ones that may be recruiting you at the end of your training, and you are only increasing the resentment we have towards these schemes.

Thirdly, may I remind you that these pilots who offer the blunt, gloomy outlook on the industry we love so much, are the same pilots who offered this same advice to you in 2008. Did anyone listen, no. Are you in the same position they said you would be in 3 years down the line, yes. So why complain so much about the advice that seems so negative? They offered their 50 cents before you began training and they were right. Obviously it might be time to listen to the advice, rather than constantly rejecting it because it is not what you want to hear.

Next, be careful when you choose to buy a pay2fly scheme in a third world country. It can be difficult to get employed elsewhere. At my company, we tend to reject the CVs from the 500 hr jet pay2fly schemes. Reason being is when we have employed them in the past, it has become evident that they paid to fly because they were not competent enough to pass an interview to get employed to fly. Now don't think I am generalising everyone. There are some fine pay2fly guys who I know who had the funds to gain experience. However all but one were released following the scheme and are now worse off than they were when they completed their fATPL.

Finally, from what I have read many of the pilots who are encouraging pay2fly are currently enrolled on the schemes or still working at minimum wage following the scheme. When pilots explain that pay2fly is damaging T and C's it is, and when you have been employed for 10 years struggling to move up in your career you will understand why, and will hold the same resentment.

I understand what people are going through, I really do. I've been there. All of us have. It is not the right time to be a new pilot just now. Europe is failing, the Chinese property bubble is about to burst dramatically, Japan has a dept dreadfully above its GDP, AMR are laying off over 13,500 staff of which at least 400 are pilots from AA, Malev failed, Spanair failed, Thomas Cook is in trouble, the list goes on. Add to that the 1000's of guys that are already looking for work and the future seems bleak. Be patient, find a job doing something else for the time being. Do the old fashioned thing and network. In a couple of years I'm sure things will be looking up.

[Telstar]

Don't heed the advise of those sat comfortably in the front right seat; resplendant in their gold bars. They just don't want you to join in.... far better that you get a job dropping parachutes at the local grass strip!

It's the funny thing about PPRuNe. When you start here you live in the wannabes forum. Then you get a gig and you leave and barely ever come back. It's been a few years since I ventured in here.

It doesn't lessen the shock of reading a comment like that though.

When I started my training I did so with the guarantee of at least a job interview with an airline through the old mates network. Starting flight training without a hand up waiting at the other end seemed like financial suicide. I witnessed many throw themselves off that financial precipice time and time again and alter the course of their life in some case probably irretrievably. Then they decided to pile up some more debt in one last desperate roll of the dice to try and recover it all.

Some of you are very young as was I when I set out on my career. That's not condescending, it's just a fact. With that often comes a total lack of understanding how long it takes to pay off the sums of money involved. €40-50K just for a P2F scheme, it's really hard to understand the grinding monthly debt and the length of time it takes to pay that off.

You talk about teaching from a pulpit of sand. It's true that I pad for my rating on the 737 but that was for a permanent contract of employment and after a year online quite a decent salary. You guys will be turfed back out at the end of your line training, of dubious, dubious quality. A low houred F/O. Ten a penny, common as muck. Competing with Malev and Spanair guys with 5 figure total times in their logbooks.

Please don't do it.

It's not because we don't want you to join some cosy club, it's because I don't want you to piss your life away and live a never ending grind of crippling monthly payments.

[ConcordeLegacy]

In response to captain.weird

I am lucky in the sense that I am young (24) free and single. I know that it makes the situation easier as it makes the burden less but I would be lying if I said it was easy for my family to stomach. Ofcourse I sat there and explained the situation and how things are going, they are not from a aviation background and this can make the explanation difficult as people have a hard time swallowing any form of idea that you would pay for a job, however this is mirrored in society today with people leaving university with degrees in Law and working in a fast food restaurant, almost criminal

I was lucky on the other hand my uncle has experience in the industry and suggested I take what's on offer as the money was available and unlike a bank I did not have to worry about interest. Just as long as they get it back which is a massive boost, when you do these things its not about the financial implication but also the financial stress, how does one perform when borrowing the money and the chance you fail(heaven forbid it) but its a situation you have to be prepared for. Boils down to sacrifices to get where you want to be, women went on hold for me for a while and having a JAA license it means I still have to make the annual trip back to europe for license validation which helps.

Olie23 Its the world we live in, cant do a dorothy, click our heals and be back in Kansas being peachy, if turbulence is the buzz word of our time we have to get use to it. Whats worse though, shedding out for the ATPL getting into a load of debt and having to work full time and forgo flying. Or just using what you have available, granted individual factors plays a part. My view is simply take the opportunity you are given provided of course you can afford it and you take into account contingency. After all you join a P2F scheme and the belief is a bunch of cowboys who cant fly, have the attitude of a dead toad and think they can walk onto a flight deck. I assure you this is not the case. For example you arrive here and get the standard briefings with the company regarding the rules and regulations, classes on the SOPS and you have 2 training sorties or standardisation simulators. You then have a company check which is a hell of a lot more gruelling then the LST. Its roughly a 40% pass rate as unfortunately what Desert Budgie says holds true, there are plenty of those characters that cant fly with money out here.

What I will say about Indonesia is having been here only a couple of months I am surprised by the people showing up with just a forzen ATPL or equivalent and knocking on a door and getting offered something by ways of pay for a tr or some people going to work straight onto a caravan. I am not encouragin or condoning P2F schemes, as mentioned it was the option for me and I took it anyone else has to decide themselves if it is the right move for them and there are no alternatives to the individual. It was when my alternatives where or seemed exhausted did I take the decision to spend more money. I love flying and its all I ever wanted to do, the cliche of the bug we all catch on our first ever flights, to what extremes people go through to make it a reality are there own choices. There will always be a ethical debate on the subject which is already ethically flawed. Again we are victims of the world we live in and we need to do our best to get where we need to be, some of us will moan and groan about it, but really you have to play the cards were dealt.

[Jumbo744]

Chris,

I understand how you feel. I was in the same position as you a few month ago. I finished my training in July 2010 and I got hired in November 2011. For about 15 months I was sending CVs all around with no positive answers.

One thing I was sure about is that I would never ever ever join any kind of pay 2 fly program, please, just forget about it! What I would do if I were you, is join a flying school with lots of students and do an instructor rating. You will become a better pilot and get paid.

To get hired, I talked directly to the owner of a small charter company and showed him how motivated I was to fly for him. I would never had got hired by just sending my CV.

Good Luck!

[Matt101]

a game of luck or is it patience?

Okay as a rule I generally give these types of discussion a miss and don't really talk about my own career path but I decided to make an exception.

I spent 3 years working for an airline as Cabin Crew, I loved every minute and met some great people, travelled to some fantastic places and gained some insight along the way. However since being a tiny sprogg having sat up on the flight deck of several monarch/Britania/flying colours aircraft watching the crew at the front do their thing (when you still could), I knew that my ultimate goal was to get into those sheepskin seats at the front.

Getting there however seemed to be a fairly difficult and costly process (I was 16 when 9/11 happened and cadet schemes in my home country died a death).

I resolved that I had to make it happen. The options that were open at the time however were not particularly plentiful and were certainly costly. I work, save and go modular/self improver (cheaper but still expensive). Or I get a loan and go integrated (Which I was, as it happens, unwilling to do, my parents are wonderful but I could never ask them to risk their life's work for an fATPL).

So I came to a conclusion, I was going to have to be patient. Perhaps very patient. I took steps to reduce my outgoing expenditure so I could save money for Plan C - move back home and go to the nearby flying school and do it the old fashioned way. Plan B was to find a part sponsored scheme that was affordable or to get into the CTC scheme which at the time offered unsecured loans and good chances of permanent contract. Plan A was the whispers of airlines beginning Cadet Schemes again. After another 3 years Plan A & B came along at once.

I chose Plan A, it meant sacrificing a few things like living in the UK etc. but the offer was too good pass up. Another 3 years later I am now happily ensconced at the front of a nice aircraft not having paid a cent so far for the training (I will be on a reduced salary but hey, I can live with that).

Incredibly lucky? Yes. Smug? Perhaps a little. But the point is it happened without having to sell my soul to the bank (or worse mortgaging my parents home). What I did have to do is wait 6 years from when I decided to go do it to getting into the RHS which many experienced flyers would tell you is still pretty lucky.

These schemes and the Part Sponsored ones are few and far between and competition is fierce I know. But ask yourself if they would be if when loco's like FR and EZ started expanding at a rate of knots a few years back potential new pilots had said "No I won't pay for the privilege"?

I personally would have been willing to wait a lot longer had I needed to. I know society has a bit of a get there yesterday attitude now but surely the wait makes it all a little bit sweeter?

I still sometimes think Plan C would have been the most fun and I want to go back and do some of the steps I skipped at some point, I think flying steam around ****ty NDB only airports at some point would not only make me a better pilot but would provide an exciting challenge. But my way in was different (maybe easier?)

I suppose that's the point of my long ramble. The way in. There are plenty and yes some of them are P2F etc, but there are others that perhaps just require a little more patience and maybe a little more sacrifice but in the long run you and the industry will be better for it.

I hope you all reach the goal you are hoping for. Best of luck and please excuse my incoherent ramblings.

[muten]

Originally Posted by Desert Budgie

Quick question. Many people keep saying they want to apply for the pay2fly schemes because companies want 500 hours on type. Please enlighten me. How many airlines are currently recruiting pilots with 500 hours on a 737 or an A320? I dont know any.

Well, I don't have the time to check again, but I can assure you at least 1 on this list offers the job for the TR +500H. And I'm going to say just 1 knowing it's far more than that. I've checked 570 companies websites from the 15th Jan. and trust me, you can see it more often than you think. So if someone like me has done his homework, probably is thinking that a p2f line training has some light at the end of the tunnel.


Aba air
Aerologic
Aeronexus
Africa charter airline
African ramble
Afrijet
Air algerie
Air Asia
Air Astana
Air berlin
Air finland
Air Hong Kong
Air India
Air India Express
Air Madagascar
Airblue
Airzara
ANA
BA Cityflyer
Bluebird cargo
British airways
Business Air
Cargolux
Cello aviation
China Airlines
Cimber sterling
Cityflyer
Direktflyg
Dragonair
Eastern airways
Euroatlantic
Eva air
Execujet
fly zambia
Global Supply Systems
GoAir
Grandstar Cargo
Hamlin jet
IndiGo
Jet Asia
Jet2
JetStar
Kingfisher Airlines
LGW
Malmö
Meelad air
Metrojet LTD
Monarch
Next Jet
Olimpic air
Philippine Airlines
PremiAir
Privatair
Rega
Shenzhen Airlines
Sia Cargo
SriLankan airlines
Star Marianas Air
Swiss air
Swiss executive aviation
Synergy
Tag aviation
Tiger Airways
Transmile Air Services
Ukraine International Airlines
Velvet sky
Vietnam airlines
Vista Jets
Walker Flying Service
Wideroe
Xiamen airlines
xlairways

[Cherrypickers]

It would be interesting if we could do an anonymous poll for everyone who has P2F and see who has regreted it or not.

[Desert Budgie]

Muten

Based on what you have quoted from my previous post you are correct, there are jobs for 500 hour rated guys. However you left out the second and most import statement in that paragraph.

Quote:
'There are adverts for pilots with 1500 to 2000 hours total time of which 500 should be on type. If you are a fresh fATPL holder, please don't be so naive to think that the 750 hours TT you have on completion of the pay2fly scheme is enough to land you a job. Now your stuck with a type rating that is about to lapse, not enough time to be hired by a employer recruiting direct entry F/O's and a debt you can't pay off because you have no career to do so.'

You will find that most of the airlines you quoted require far more than just 500 hours on type. I know, I've looked at them for my own career progression. Then you must consider do you speak the language? This can be a requirement, particularly with some European carriers. Do you hold an unfrozen ATPL? Do you have work eligibility in some of these countries? Once you have run through the filter you will find that list becomes rather small.

Now, for the few positions you may be eligable for, you will be competing with every other rated pilot who may have thousands more hours on type prior to their furlough from a major airline.

Telstar makes an excellent point
Quote:
'Some of you are very young as was I when I set out on my career. That's not condescending, it's just a fact. With that often comes a total lack of understanding how long it takes to pay off the sums of money involved. €40-50K just for a P2F scheme, it's really hard to understand the grinding monthly debt and the length of time it takes to pay that off.'

I make a reasonably good wage. Not spectacular, but enough to pay the bills and go on holiday once a year. The first few years I was flying money was tight, and with a high cost of living, car repairs, insurances etc came growing credit card dept. To add to that I was getting married and that was going to cost a fortune! I decided to take out a 60 month loan of about £20,000 pounds to consolidate my dept and have money to put towards my wedding. Now I curse every month when £500 comes off of my account for things I bought 3 years ago and didn't need! But at least I have an income to pay it off, and I had an income prior to taking out the loan.

If you have a spare 50 grand kicking about and fancy taking a year off to fly for nothing go ahead. You obviously can afford it and don't need a deposit for a house. However if you are taking out more money, or someone is re mortgaging their house for you to pursue your hobby don't do it. It could be a decision that affects your life for years to come.

Get another job, keep current, save up for a type rating for the future incase you are OFFERED A JOB that requires you to pay for one. Join your local flying club and network. Be patient and your time will come.

And Cherrypickers, I don't think you need a poll. There are plenty of stories on these forums.

Good luck guys

[muten]

Well Desert Budgie, you are right and I mostly agree with what you said, I just wanted to point out that the position of TR+500 is there in enough quantity to make you think.

Now you are not completely fair either, because the problem with the language, the total time, the fATPL, etc, is the same with or without the TR+500. A new pilot with 200TT, out of 500 companies in europe will be only eligible for 20 or 30, now if you get in your CV a TR+500, you might open your chances to 50, which still sucks, but at least you have more chances.

Moreover, you are forgetting that with 750TT (500jet), of course you won't find a job for the TR you have, but now you are eligible also for the F/O openings in small jets and turboprop, which if I recall properly, you can see dozens of offers for 300TT in jet, 100TT in medium or heavy a/c, 100TT in commercial operations, etc. So if I follow with the previous example, now you increase your chances to 100, which is far better than the 20-30.

But as I said earlier, I agree with you and the idea of not getting in a big debt, because you won't open your options enough to be worth 50K

I just got my license on december, and I don't consider yet the P2F option, not because I don't have the money (which I don't), it's just because I want to try the old way of sending CV's and knocking on doors. But I've been thinking lately that the expenses of keeping myself current for the next 4-5 years, will add roughly almost enough to pay a line training right now (a cheap one, maybe not the 320 or 737).

The question here is: Is it worth it also to play the lottery of finding a job the old way, while you have to pay to keep your licenses current, and if you fail in finding a job for 4-5 years, have spent just a bit less the amount of money for a P2F scheme, but this time, you are 5 years older, without TR and 300-500 hours jet?

[muten]

Desert Budgie, look what I found this evening for Gulf Air, 320 F/O:

GULF1724 - Direct Entry Rated First Officers for Airbus A320 - Gulf Air

To be considered for this position you must:

• Have frozen ATPL (JAA equivalent);
• Be fluent in spoken and written English;
• Have a current medical;
• Have a total of 800 flying hours;
• Have 400 on type flying hours;
• Have 400 flying hours on Jet multi-crew aircraft; and
• Be less than 51 years of age on the day of application.

As I said, these job offers are there more often than you think. The basic training plus the TR+500, and the missing 50-100 hours, the cheapest c152 and you are ready for it. It doesn't mean you're gonna get it, but at least you can apply.

[pilotchute]

Not exactly true

What you quoted in your last post was for E190 FO's. That said what is quoted is the minimum. That's just the lowest end of the Resume spectrum they will accept. Usually you can double the hours to expect an interview.

My company has just lifted it's minimum to 1000TT and 500 hours on any TP. We have Resume's that far exceed these minimums to the point where 2000TT and 1000 hours TP will definately get you a interview and somewhere halfway may get you a phone screening.

Before you all start screaming why, it's because my boss would rather take a unemployed pilot who has bills to pay and kids to feed than a 250 hour guy who can still live at home. His exact words were "when I run out of pilot applicants who have children to feed I will gladly take on the fATPL guys and girls who are looking for a break. That won't be for a while yet though"

[Jumbo744]

oh and by the way, Gulf air has announced layoffs and cancelled all hiring...