Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
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I remember
Bealzebub,
VAC only needed 300 hours on type for quite a while. Alot of Turbo prop contract gigs only used to require 300 or less. I remember Biz jet jobs only needing 100 hours on type but they don't figure in P2F usually.
What your saying about quality of previous employers and general background I agree with totally. If you believe what jetjockey says in the Lion Air thread there are around 300 expat FO's at Lion right now. I would bet 90% are pay to fly. Once these people start sending off Resume's to every half decent carrier that are left in the world they will quickly lift the minimum just to stop getting swamped by these people. 500 hours is just a filter and when the filter isn't effective they change it to suit the needs of the airline. If I was getting swamped by P2F resume's I would up it to 750 hours on type. Yes, having 500 hours just gets your Resume into the pile. It doesn't get you a guarantee of an interview. Try explaining that to the latest P2f grad.
If we are to believe what the good old economists are saying right now there will be much more pain before gain so even fewer jobs around for experienced guys and virtually none for the newbee.
VAC only needed 300 hours on type for quite a while. Alot of Turbo prop contract gigs only used to require 300 or less. I remember Biz jet jobs only needing 100 hours on type but they don't figure in P2F usually.
What your saying about quality of previous employers and general background I agree with totally. If you believe what jetjockey says in the Lion Air thread there are around 300 expat FO's at Lion right now. I would bet 90% are pay to fly. Once these people start sending off Resume's to every half decent carrier that are left in the world they will quickly lift the minimum just to stop getting swamped by these people. 500 hours is just a filter and when the filter isn't effective they change it to suit the needs of the airline. If I was getting swamped by P2F resume's I would up it to 750 hours on type. Yes, having 500 hours just gets your Resume into the pile. It doesn't get you a guarantee of an interview. Try explaining that to the latest P2f grad.
If we are to believe what the good old economists are saying right now there will be much more pain before gain so even fewer jobs around for experienced guys and virtually none for the newbee.
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Harsh words from DoleBoy.
Sorry for the tardy reply; been on an early.
You are quite correct; P2F is rather unique and likely to remain so.
I believe this can be attributed to the fact that flying is a 'blue collar' function that enjoys the perception of huge kudos. Remember we all seek remuneration for something that many enjoy as a hobby.
P2F exists because there is a strong demand for the service.
Folks want to get the gold bars on and fly aeroplanes, the rest is market forces. The good news is that we can enjoy some cheap airfares on the back of Daddy's boy so it aint all bad news. I am grateful that some stock broker in Chigwell is paying my airfare for me; albeit via his grinning child and MOL or Mr Curd. Everyones happy - why can't you be?
Sorry for the tardy reply; been on an early.
You are quite correct; P2F is rather unique and likely to remain so.
I believe this can be attributed to the fact that flying is a 'blue collar' function that enjoys the perception of huge kudos. Remember we all seek remuneration for something that many enjoy as a hobby.
P2F exists because there is a strong demand for the service.
Folks want to get the gold bars on and fly aeroplanes, the rest is market forces. The good news is that we can enjoy some cheap airfares on the back of Daddy's boy so it aint all bad news. I am grateful that some stock broker in Chigwell is paying my airfare for me; albeit via his grinning child and MOL or Mr Curd. Everyones happy - why can't you be?
Last edited by BigNumber; 24th Jan 2012 at 20:35.
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BigNumber
Harsh words indeed, and in reply to your question maybe my username will give you a clue as to why I am unhappy.
So I paid the money and gambled like everyone else and yes I have had success and failure, once upon a time I would have been a hot commodity with Jet Time and Commercial Flying, but now the only skills I need are a blue licence, a book on interview techniques (optional) and last but really first a bank account full of money. You may say it has always been this way and market forces drive the P2F, this I have to admit is true, but when pilots were respected for their skill and the responsibility they held then did we see empty aircraft flying to spain and back, when a family holiday meant most people having to save their hard earned to go ABROAD.
No they were full to the brim and Air Travel was special, now we have the me me me and throwaway society and to hell with what they want and must justify the bottom line, fly aircraft on ever tighter margins of cost/safety and all so that we can get to the places we all went before but paid a higher price for.
And yes you are right a lot of people see it as a Hobby made into a job, so what's next St John's Ambulance volunteers paying to remove some guys spleen because they enjoy caring for people, come on you know, I know and every person with one ounce of sense, it is not about the amount of unemployed pilots out there but the Low Cost Model which is the preferred option for quite a few operators.
And of course as costs were slashed by other industries from the early 90's to today. We now get Clothes from india, sri lanka, pakistan, electronics from the far east and food from just about every third world producer you can name, therefore I might suggest that along with many other ex UK industries we won't return to the good old days, rather when the P2F bank accounts dry up, Aviation provided by UK based airlines will cease, and the glut of foreign low cost operators will take the market and will no doubt fleece the poor deluded wannabe for a fortune just to play aeroplanes.
Well either we stand together or we will fall together, yes the ex-pat markets are strong, but given time their own nationals will catch up then the sound of Nigel on the airwaves will be a distant memory and yet again the market will have turned full circle and disappeared up its own backside.
However your right vanity and jingoistic personalities will endure, and when the current economic downturn kills off a few more operators, then the pool we are all swimming in will become smaller, and the sharks will get fatter.
Harsh words indeed, and in reply to your question maybe my username will give you a clue as to why I am unhappy.
So I paid the money and gambled like everyone else and yes I have had success and failure, once upon a time I would have been a hot commodity with Jet Time and Commercial Flying, but now the only skills I need are a blue licence, a book on interview techniques (optional) and last but really first a bank account full of money. You may say it has always been this way and market forces drive the P2F, this I have to admit is true, but when pilots were respected for their skill and the responsibility they held then did we see empty aircraft flying to spain and back, when a family holiday meant most people having to save their hard earned to go ABROAD.
No they were full to the brim and Air Travel was special, now we have the me me me and throwaway society and to hell with what they want and must justify the bottom line, fly aircraft on ever tighter margins of cost/safety and all so that we can get to the places we all went before but paid a higher price for.
And yes you are right a lot of people see it as a Hobby made into a job, so what's next St John's Ambulance volunteers paying to remove some guys spleen because they enjoy caring for people, come on you know, I know and every person with one ounce of sense, it is not about the amount of unemployed pilots out there but the Low Cost Model which is the preferred option for quite a few operators.
And of course as costs were slashed by other industries from the early 90's to today. We now get Clothes from india, sri lanka, pakistan, electronics from the far east and food from just about every third world producer you can name, therefore I might suggest that along with many other ex UK industries we won't return to the good old days, rather when the P2F bank accounts dry up, Aviation provided by UK based airlines will cease, and the glut of foreign low cost operators will take the market and will no doubt fleece the poor deluded wannabe for a fortune just to play aeroplanes.
Well either we stand together or we will fall together, yes the ex-pat markets are strong, but given time their own nationals will catch up then the sound of Nigel on the airwaves will be a distant memory and yet again the market will have turned full circle and disappeared up its own backside.
However your right vanity and jingoistic personalities will endure, and when the current economic downturn kills off a few more operators, then the pool we are all swimming in will become smaller, and the sharks will get fatter.
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punk66: Integrity in business: Without trust the business looses customers.
The 7 Principles of Business Integrity | WebProNews
bignumber: P2F Choice: It is also a choice to ignore it, look the other way for short term gains. But long term pain? The results of keeping one's head in the sand is usually fatal.
Colgan Q400 crash highlighted P2F in USA regionals.
The 7 Principles of Business Integrity | WebProNews
bignumber: P2F Choice: It is also a choice to ignore it, look the other way for short term gains. But long term pain? The results of keeping one's head in the sand is usually fatal.
Colgan Q400 crash highlighted P2F in USA regionals.
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Double standards?
Bealzebub: "Five hundred hours on type has always been something of a minimum bench mark for a type rated pilot...........For cadets, we provide the training and the experience"
Here is the problem (for aviators wanting to develop their careers): the UK LoCo's and associated "approved" schools have created a closed shop for £££££ gain.
Some have even stopped the "TR (£££) into job schemes" because more money can be made from MPL (££££) cadets or selling "TR PLUS Line training" 100 to 500h to P2F "slaves" (£££££).
So an experienced pilot (maybe 4000h of light jet or turboprop time or Military Helicopter pilot) needs 500h on Specific Type for the Airline's "insurance" or HR/Interview entry reasons.
Whilst an MPL cadet with 70h of actual flying time (mostly in a C172 i.e.: less than some PPLs and no need for genuine solo time) needs no real world flying experience (e.g. flying down to minimums in turbulence on a non precision approach with no auto throttles/AP and limited fuel reserves) outside of highly controlled SIM sessions .
Yes SIMS are great for procedural work. And as long as everything goes according to the strictest of SOPs with automation fully functional when on the Line, nobody dies. And 20 years down the line the reliance on automation can be even greater without the variety of flying previous pilots experienced.
So are the Trainers and Line Captains under more pressure? Are SFOs loosing out on developing their skills towards Command when P2Fs are flying and they are on standby?
And as to employees' Ts&Cs being eroded...... !
So P2F: a win win for the LoCos and Schools (who sell more places than Pilot jobs).
And it's down with social mobility, down with hard gained experience, down with piloting skills, down with flight safety (Around 2000 pax deaths in Western Airlines last 10 years due Loss of Control), down with variety of backgrounds and demographics with HR computer tests and in some European countries >35 yrs old ageism.
Wasn't there a tail scrape last year that wrote off a LoCo's fairly new Airbus? Ah but it's OK the Insurance paid out despite the pilot not having had 500h on type!
Here is the problem (for aviators wanting to develop their careers): the UK LoCo's and associated "approved" schools have created a closed shop for £££££ gain.
Some have even stopped the "TR (£££) into job schemes" because more money can be made from MPL (££££) cadets or selling "TR PLUS Line training" 100 to 500h to P2F "slaves" (£££££).
So an experienced pilot (maybe 4000h of light jet or turboprop time or Military Helicopter pilot) needs 500h on Specific Type for the Airline's "insurance" or HR/Interview entry reasons.
Whilst an MPL cadet with 70h of actual flying time (mostly in a C172 i.e.: less than some PPLs and no need for genuine solo time) needs no real world flying experience (e.g. flying down to minimums in turbulence on a non precision approach with no auto throttles/AP and limited fuel reserves) outside of highly controlled SIM sessions .
Yes SIMS are great for procedural work. And as long as everything goes according to the strictest of SOPs with automation fully functional when on the Line, nobody dies. And 20 years down the line the reliance on automation can be even greater without the variety of flying previous pilots experienced.
So are the Trainers and Line Captains under more pressure? Are SFOs loosing out on developing their skills towards Command when P2Fs are flying and they are on standby?
And as to employees' Ts&Cs being eroded...... !
So P2F: a win win for the LoCos and Schools (who sell more places than Pilot jobs).
And it's down with social mobility, down with hard gained experience, down with piloting skills, down with flight safety (Around 2000 pax deaths in Western Airlines last 10 years due Loss of Control), down with variety of backgrounds and demographics with HR computer tests and in some European countries >35 yrs old ageism.
Wasn't there a tail scrape last year that wrote off a LoCo's fairly new Airbus? Ah but it's OK the Insurance paid out despite the pilot not having had 500h on type!
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How about some realistic expectations. It's a well known fact or at least was when I went into flight school that your first few jobs would be crap pay, and you would have to sacrifice for a few years before you got the pay off of an airline job that would make it all worth while.
Brain surgeons don't get to skip internship because they have some cash laying around, lawyers don't make partner in a firm by throwing cash at the other partners, Christ, even a backhoe operator doesn't pay his boss for a promotion from dirt shoveler to get his position, they are all earned by hard work and dedication.
What kind of person would denigrate his chosen profession by paying to skip steps to get ahead, and ultimately laying the ground work for his future managers to degrade his conditions of service. When I take a management position 15 years from now and I see from your cv that you payed to fly, I will offer you half the salary I'm paying others, and you will take it because if you don't there will 100 behind you that are now willing to pay to fly as captains for free for 6 months or a year just to get a leg up on the competition.
Brain surgeons don't get to skip internship because they have some cash laying around, lawyers don't make partner in a firm by throwing cash at the other partners, Christ, even a backhoe operator doesn't pay his boss for a promotion from dirt shoveler to get his position, they are all earned by hard work and dedication.
What kind of person would denigrate his chosen profession by paying to skip steps to get ahead, and ultimately laying the ground work for his future managers to degrade his conditions of service. When I take a management position 15 years from now and I see from your cv that you payed to fly, I will offer you half the salary I'm paying others, and you will take it because if you don't there will 100 behind you that are now willing to pay to fly as captains for free for 6 months or a year just to get a leg up on the competition.
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People are never going to stop paying for training. Unfortunately it's the done thing nowadays. It's ok people saying 'Stop paying for it and then the airlines will have to', but let's face it - its not going to happen.
I've plenty of friends who did P2F, and are now with major airlines such as EK, living the life, earning
loads of cash. I don't see how they're suffering?????
I've plenty of friends who did P2F, and are now with major airlines such as EK, living the life, earning
loads of cash. I don't see how they're suffering?????
1. No one is saying that training should be paid for other then by the candidate.
2. When the candidate is PAYING to fly and has fare paying passengers or freight sitting behind them, they are paying to fly.
There is a marked difference between training and paying to fly the line.
3. When candidates pay for TR's for Line Training, what next, pay for 500 hours; we're there, then what 1,000 hours, then what... then what... ?
4. Your 'friends' who Paid to fly may be working with carriers for sure, but they are suffering in the long run, because they are part and parcel of shutting the gates to career progression. F/O's that require a salary to be replaced by F/O's paying to fly. Economics.. its a no brainier money out over money in. See point 3 above.
5. in the modern era of CRM etc. flying the line is no place to put candidates who are paying for line training / paying to fly the line. The modern cockpit is a TWO pilot environment. The P2F situation puts more demand on the Captain as in effect he is providing training and not operating in two pilot environment.
6. Once the P2F bracket has moved up to 1,000 hours or maybe more, before the opportunity of a full time position is granted how then does the F/O gain the experience to move his career forward to a command position? After all, the preference to dump out employees you have to pay in favour in favour of ones who are paying to be there will not be able to generate the experience to gain command positions and so the carrier itself will find itself in a position of having a problem in obtaining Captains.
you see this and have seen it in the market place over the past couple of years, captains are in demand, and F/O's are not.
The situation is a lose/lose for the carrier and for the candidate as well as lose/lose for industry regions.
Last edited by stuckgear; 5th Feb 2012 at 19:01.
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Stuckgear, what a nice explanation. 
Ok, I get your point, and I don't want to sound as if I were an advocate for the P2F, but the problem in aviation is that if you start from the bottom, you get light single engine, light twin... and climbing the ladder medium twin turboprop if you are very lucky... go to the websites of the companies and see by yourself how useful is that. Mostly it doesn't matter if you have 3000TT in light twin, you are in the same pool of experience as the 200TT with 20 in twin.
Your example is how the things should be, but the problem in aviation is, you start doing the ****ty stuff, and that won't guarantee the experience for the next step. I wouldn't mind to begin my career being a bush pilot, but the lowest requirement most companies ask to begin with is the TR on their a/c and 300 hours jet, now tell me where can I get that experience climbing the ladder unless I enter a company with a fleet of lights, turboprop and jet. (The same applies to turboprop, unless you have previous experience, you won't get the right seat by just having 3000TT in light a/c)
EDIT: Look what I found in another thread
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...ml#post7000932
Originally Posted by kolob666
How about some realistic expectations. It's a well known fact or at least was when I went into flight school that your first few jobs would be crap pay, and you would have to sacrifice for a few years before you got the pay off of an airline job that would make it all worth while.
Brain surgeons don't get to skip internship because they have some cash laying around, lawyers don't make partner in a firm by throwing cash at the other partners, Christ, even a backhoe operator doesn't pay his boss for a promotion from dirt shoveler to get his position, they are all earned by hard work and dedication.
What kind of person would denigrate his chosen profession by paying to skip steps to get ahead, and ultimately laying the ground work for his future managers to degrade his conditions of service. When I take a management position 15 years from now and I see from your cv that you payed to fly, I will offer you half the salary I'm paying others, and you will take it because if you don't there will 100 behind you that are now willing to pay to fly as captains for free for 6 months or a year just to get a leg up on the competition.
Brain surgeons don't get to skip internship because they have some cash laying around, lawyers don't make partner in a firm by throwing cash at the other partners, Christ, even a backhoe operator doesn't pay his boss for a promotion from dirt shoveler to get his position, they are all earned by hard work and dedication.
What kind of person would denigrate his chosen profession by paying to skip steps to get ahead, and ultimately laying the ground work for his future managers to degrade his conditions of service. When I take a management position 15 years from now and I see from your cv that you payed to fly, I will offer you half the salary I'm paying others, and you will take it because if you don't there will 100 behind you that are now willing to pay to fly as captains for free for 6 months or a year just to get a leg up on the competition.
Your example is how the things should be, but the problem in aviation is, you start doing the ****ty stuff, and that won't guarantee the experience for the next step. I wouldn't mind to begin my career being a bush pilot, but the lowest requirement most companies ask to begin with is the TR on their a/c and 300 hours jet, now tell me where can I get that experience climbing the ladder unless I enter a company with a fleet of lights, turboprop and jet. (The same applies to turboprop, unless you have previous experience, you won't get the right seat by just having 3000TT in light a/c)
EDIT: Look what I found in another thread
Finally I got my opportunity flying turbo props. Of course now I have a new complaint, I'm stuck flying turbo props! I have nearly 5000 hours, ATPL, 2500 hours command on part 23 and 25 aircraft, TRE certificate and nobody with shiny jet aircraft will look at me because I dont have enough Jar 25 time, or EFIS time or 1000 hrs plus on medium jet. The list is endless. I have never failed an IR, TR or anything, I have great references but I can't get my foot in the door.
Last edited by muten; 5th Feb 2012 at 11:47.
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Well .... seems you can not step inside anymore even if you pay, i payd my 737 type to join eaglejet lionair program in september, after finished a self sponsored crapy type rating with a TRTO in his list !! they completely forget me, eaglejet left me rated and jobless, lot of loans to pay, worst position you can be, no answer to the phone and even if they call me now !!! price in 40000 $$$$$$!!!!! was 26500 at time of application, of course i have to stick on the new contract!!!
but i do have a smart question .... i saw with my eyes almost other 30 guys in the same position ( and i know there are many many more victims of this ) why i'm the only idiot reporting this ??
but i do have a smart question .... i saw with my eyes almost other 30 guys in the same position ( and i know there are many many more victims of this ) why i'm the only idiot reporting this ??
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I know it's true and I know a lot of people in your situation. No more line trainings with EJ, so don't go buy a Type Rating with their partners because it will be useless.
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If i'm right it's been like 4 or 5 months since you got your TR and applied to EJ. I consider this period of time within limits for they to contact you, as there are loads of people waiting to enter and only few check captains to train newcomers. I'll be soon entering EJ also, as i'll start my TR in 2 weeks, so by the end of the TR probably something else will be known about EJ and Lion Air situation. But do not desperate, wait a little bit more and surely they'll call you!
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Eaglejet
Apparently Eaglejet did have a place for one Pliot on their 737 programme last week. It was short notice requiring the "candidate"? to be in Jakarta, within a few days!
The terms seem to be slipping lower and lower. Its now a 4 year contract. With a $50k USD penalty clause for the pilot, for non completion of the contract.
The price I believe is $43,700. Plus simulator assesments etc!
Thats the word on the street in Jakarta anyway!
The terms seem to be slipping lower and lower. Its now a 4 year contract. With a $50k USD penalty clause for the pilot, for non completion of the contract.
The price I believe is $43,700. Plus simulator assesments etc!
Thats the word on the street in Jakarta anyway!
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
We have been offered an opportunity to place 8 pilots with an airline flying the A320 in Europe for a year. It is estimated you will gain approx 700 hours in that time.
Even though this will be a self sponsored position you will receive flight pay.
Full details will be disclosed to interested parties on submission of their CV to the following email address. JAA only
The 8 people need their heads testing.....seriously is this where its at?
3 years down the line from stepping into a flight school waving a cheque book you're £200k+ down!! and nothing of value to show for it.... the little blue book and TR/Job £100k+, no salary for 3 years £90k+ then living costs of 12k per year, in all an investment costing YOU well over 200k!! and nothing to show at the end. Just sit and think what else you could achieve with that sort of money.
We have been offered an opportunity to place 8 pilots with an airline flying the A320 in Europe for a year. It is estimated you will gain approx 700 hours in that time.
Even though this will be a self sponsored position you will receive flight pay.
Full details will be disclosed to interested parties on submission of their CV to the following email address. JAA only
The 8 people need their heads testing.....seriously is this where its at?
3 years down the line from stepping into a flight school waving a cheque book you're £200k+ down!! and nothing of value to show for it.... the little blue book and TR/Job £100k+, no salary for 3 years £90k+ then living costs of 12k per year, in all an investment costing YOU well over 200k!! and nothing to show at the end. Just sit and think what else you could achieve with that sort of money.
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
We have been offered an opportunity to place 8 pilots with an airline flying the A320 in Europe for a year. It is estimated you will gain approx 700 hours in that time.
Even though this will be a self sponsored position you will receive flight pay.
Full details will be disclosed to interested parties on submission of their CV to the following email address. JAA only
We have been offered an opportunity to place 8 pilots with an airline flying the A320 in Europe for a year. It is estimated you will gain approx 700 hours in that time.
Even though this will be a self sponsored position you will receive flight pay.
Full details will be disclosed to interested parties on submission of their CV to the following email address. JAA only
Its based in Turkey (Atlas Jet) and what he's not telling you is that Atlas are very reluctant to take anyone creating obstacles all along coupled with approximately 4 months wait before starting and then only sporadic flying.
In all, expect to complete 700hrs in 18months to 2 yrs, in which time you pay for food accommodation and everything else.
CURD - a real parasite amongst humanity.
So desperate for money he has resorted to this now:
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It seems all is not well at a leading Orange outfit. Flexicrew First Officers on their uppers due lack of flying are alleged to be paying to fly. Other First officers on permanent contracts are the recipients of the cash. Cash to change duties.
It now seems even the middle of the feeding chain want a bit of the action. You heard it here first!!!!!
"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions".
It now seems even the middle of the feeding chain want a bit of the action. You heard it here first!!!!!
"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions".
Well robert that wont be happening anymore. Just a few hours after your post we've received an email stating all duty swaps aren't permitted for the foreseeable future due to reported 'selling of duties'. I doubt very much money changed hands and between very few FO's, so a useful way of getting a longer/ shorter/ earlier/ more enjoyable duty has gone 
