Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
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If Captains in existing airlines were charged in the same way as their colleagues in the right seat, the rot would stop tomorrow. Not at all saying that is the way to go, but it would highlight the problem.
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@A330ETOPS: Your main point is that a TR helps. However, you just said yourself, you got it 6 months ago, and ever since that, you only got 4 interviews, and 2 real possibilities, which are P2F. That's pretty much where anyone with 200 hours is right now (EJ for example), so your TR didnt help at all, just wanted another huge pile of cash.
Another? Yes. The main thing I got out of your message is that you spent 100K GBP getting cpl/ir/me, because you went for the fancy integrated course... You can get the same stuff for about half of that amount. So at the end of the day, its 50K vs. 120K, and we're still exactly in the same shoe. People should not do TRs OR integrated craps.
Another? Yes. The main thing I got out of your message is that you spent 100K GBP getting cpl/ir/me, because you went for the fancy integrated course... You can get the same stuff for about half of that amount. So at the end of the day, its 50K vs. 120K, and we're still exactly in the same shoe. People should not do TRs OR integrated craps.
@Roope,
Sorry Roope, but i did mention that i recently passed a sim check with an airline, and am about to start anytime soon. This one isn't P2F, and you get paid from day 1, even no cost for line training.
On the otherhand, i totally agree with you about 'Integrated'. Looking back, i wouldnt have taken this route. I would have done it modular, as i've had saved a **** load of cash.
On the other hand, i had a bloody good time and feel i had the best training i could have asked for. I was working for an airline at the time, and did the course on advice from the current DFO. The airline however isn't around now, so didnt end up with the job i'd hoped for at the end of it all!
Sorry Roope, but i did mention that i recently passed a sim check with an airline, and am about to start anytime soon. This one isn't P2F, and you get paid from day 1, even no cost for line training.
On the otherhand, i totally agree with you about 'Integrated'. Looking back, i wouldnt have taken this route. I would have done it modular, as i've had saved a **** load of cash.
On the other hand, i had a bloody good time and feel i had the best training i could have asked for. I was working for an airline at the time, and did the course on advice from the current DFO. The airline however isn't around now, so didnt end up with the job i'd hoped for at the end of it all!
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P2F strike.
I, like many, am a beginner caught out in the P2F scam. MOL has ruined prospects for a job, unless you're some rich playboy, only doing it for kicks. I never heard any of this going through training, or when I was handing over ridiculous amounts of money for that. I think the current system will create serious problems, not only to the lives of prospective pilots like me, but to the industry as a whole.
I can't see it happening, but I would love to see a total strike of all pilots, both employed and those seeking jobs. To avoid, and dissuade anyone from working for airlines that use this method of money making.
There is hardly any other industry that uses the same model, earning money from staff rather then customers. Would David Beckam be playing football if he had to pay to get on the pitch? Would Usain Bolt run if it cost him so much just to start? We have to stop this before it spreads and becomes the norm.
Is there any support for something like this, or will everyone just let it P2F takeover.
I can't see it happening, but I would love to see a total strike of all pilots, both employed and those seeking jobs. To avoid, and dissuade anyone from working for airlines that use this method of money making.
There is hardly any other industry that uses the same model, earning money from staff rather then customers. Would David Beckam be playing football if he had to pay to get on the pitch? Would Usain Bolt run if it cost him so much just to start? We have to stop this before it spreads and becomes the norm.
Is there any support for something like this, or will everyone just let it P2F takeover.
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Sure.
When you say "job" do you mean "any job" or do you mean "airline pilots job?"
How about a system where you only get the chance to plant your derriere in the right hand seat of an airliner with an Airline Transport Pilots Licence. That is an absolute minimum of 1500 hours and at least 21 years of age? After all isn't that what an ATPL is designed for?
Given the paucity of aerial work type jobs in many countries, that would generally eliminate a portion of the potential competition. Once aquired the ATPL would then be the baseline qualification to apply for any airline pilot vacancies. Of course, and has been the case for many decades now, competition will set the bar much higher than that. Airlines traditionally look for around 2000 hours and 500 hours turbine time as a base minimum. That could be found by spending say 10 years in the military (if you are good enough to qualify) or finding work at second and third level commuter/turboprop operators and building up the necessary levels of experience to move on up the ladder.
Of course even then, those without the stakemoney (turbine time) might feel tempted to buy it, and undoubtably there would be businesses willing to sell it. Vanity line training would probably be just as useless in securing meaningful employment as it is now, but at least the higher baseline requirements would reduce the overall numbers.
In all reality, this is pretty much the way it has always been. Regulatory changes coming shortly in the USA suggest this may well become the wider norm' in the future as well. I can see a more structured fasttrack airline cadet programme being restricted to a handful of approved schools (de facto it already exists.) But this 200-2000 hour "sea of pilots" needs a more clearly defined set of regulatory structures in place, to help prevent some of the current abuses and cloudy thinking, that are clearly so endemic within a significant portion of this demographic.
If you need saving from yourself, this might prove a slightly better hope, than the idea that anybody is going strike to assist you in that particular goal.
When you say "job" do you mean "any job" or do you mean "airline pilots job?"
How about a system where you only get the chance to plant your derriere in the right hand seat of an airliner with an Airline Transport Pilots Licence. That is an absolute minimum of 1500 hours and at least 21 years of age? After all isn't that what an ATPL is designed for?
Given the paucity of aerial work type jobs in many countries, that would generally eliminate a portion of the potential competition. Once aquired the ATPL would then be the baseline qualification to apply for any airline pilot vacancies. Of course, and has been the case for many decades now, competition will set the bar much higher than that. Airlines traditionally look for around 2000 hours and 500 hours turbine time as a base minimum. That could be found by spending say 10 years in the military (if you are good enough to qualify) or finding work at second and third level commuter/turboprop operators and building up the necessary levels of experience to move on up the ladder.
Of course even then, those without the stakemoney (turbine time) might feel tempted to buy it, and undoubtably there would be businesses willing to sell it. Vanity line training would probably be just as useless in securing meaningful employment as it is now, but at least the higher baseline requirements would reduce the overall numbers.
In all reality, this is pretty much the way it has always been. Regulatory changes coming shortly in the USA suggest this may well become the wider norm' in the future as well. I can see a more structured fasttrack airline cadet programme being restricted to a handful of approved schools (de facto it already exists.) But this 200-2000 hour "sea of pilots" needs a more clearly defined set of regulatory structures in place, to help prevent some of the current abuses and cloudy thinking, that are clearly so endemic within a significant portion of this demographic.
If you need saving from yourself, this might prove a slightly better hope, than the idea that anybody is going strike to assist you in that particular goal.
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Pay for training only hurts yourself, in the long run. It sends the message you don't value yourself or your skills, and you'd stab your co-worker to get one meager step ahead. At the same time, you're helping management stuff their pockets.
If no one paid for training, the schools would dry up (as they should). If you continue to make short-sighted decisions, you'll continue to suffer. We should instead support stronger labor laws and unions. Pilots as a group can send the very strong message that they think as a unit and act accordingly.
Those who defend PFT as 'the way it is' are usually those who have already sold out. They are the ones management knows can be pushed around and manipulated with fear tactics. They've lost the knowledge that they need us more than we need them.
After the CFI ratings, there's no need for PFT.
If no one paid for training, the schools would dry up (as they should). If you continue to make short-sighted decisions, you'll continue to suffer. We should instead support stronger labor laws and unions. Pilots as a group can send the very strong message that they think as a unit and act accordingly.
Those who defend PFT as 'the way it is' are usually those who have already sold out. They are the ones management knows can be pushed around and manipulated with fear tactics. They've lost the knowledge that they need us more than we need them.
After the CFI ratings, there's no need for PFT.
I never heard any of this going through training,
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Good post Johnny.
Paying to work with paying passenger on board is a fraud, because everything is already paid for by the passengers. This is an international trade law under the World Trade Organisation: one cannot sell his products lower than what it initially cost him, this is to protect fair trade competition.
Renting an airplane for touch and goes without passenger on board, renting a simulator without paying passenger on board, obviously, is very bad HR policy but could be justified in some ways, like somebody has to pay for this simulator, your company or you, that's a fact: we know where the money goes to.
However paying to work when there is nothing to pay for looks like corruption money to me. If pilot unions wanted to fight this one, there is a good chance they would win.
If somebody doesn't have the level to fly an airliner, for whatever reason (not enough experience), so he shouldn't be in this airplane, there is no way to use the low experience level to make an individual pay for something that is already paid for.
Paying to work with paying passenger on board is a fraud, because everything is already paid for by the passengers. This is an international trade law under the World Trade Organisation: one cannot sell his products lower than what it initially cost him, this is to protect fair trade competition.
Renting an airplane for touch and goes without passenger on board, renting a simulator without paying passenger on board, obviously, is very bad HR policy but could be justified in some ways, like somebody has to pay for this simulator, your company or you, that's a fact: we know where the money goes to.
However paying to work when there is nothing to pay for looks like corruption money to me. If pilot unions wanted to fight this one, there is a good chance they would win.
If somebody doesn't have the level to fly an airliner, for whatever reason (not enough experience), so he shouldn't be in this airplane, there is no way to use the low experience level to make an individual pay for something that is already paid for.
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Kag, an interesting post and a quick search reveals this:
BBC News - Graduates paying to work for free
What is interesting is the comment at the end:
Given that easyJet are the main culprit of this in recent years and the numbers that went through on the P2F scheme there could be quite a large sum in question involved. IIRC there were in the region of 40+ P2F pilots paying in the region of £10k (that was the figure being suggested) so no paltry amount in total; £400,000
Should HMRC decide to investigate I imagine some senior heads could roll.
BBC News - Graduates paying to work for free
What is interesting is the comment at the end:
"The government's own lawyers have warned work without pay is often illegal and HMRC should be investigating companies which offer unpaid and paid-for internships."
Should HMRC decide to investigate I imagine some senior heads could roll.
Last edited by favete linguis; 19th Jan 2012 at 09:13. Reason: clarification
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What a truly splendid idea!
I am sure no one will mind if I laugh this afternoons flight off!!
No One makes anyone P2F; it's all about choice. Noddy Wings; I would suggest that you don't enlist in any of these schemes; I'm sure a job will appear for you one day
. Keep sending your CV out!!! 
I am sure no one will mind if I laugh this afternoons flight off!!
No One makes anyone P2F; it's all about choice. Noddy Wings; I would suggest that you don't enlist in any of these schemes; I'm sure a job will appear for you one day
. Keep sending your CV out!!!
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P2F is only going to become more common. There will never be a shortage of people who have access to £30k (in addition to what they already paid). It really is a career for the rich now or the very lucky. A strike wouldn't work as there will always be a queue of people with cash in their hand ready to start a TR.
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Favete linguis:
Interesting indeed! They talk about the work for free phenomenon, we are passed that one here, that's pay to work and corruption! If you add to this fact CRM teach us that our financial/debt situation has an infuence on the safety of the flight, I feel BBC news will have a great scandal to offer sooner than later, only a matter of time...
Interesting indeed! They talk about the work for free phenomenon, we are passed that one here, that's pay to work and corruption! If you add to this fact CRM teach us that our financial/debt situation has an infuence on the safety of the flight, I feel BBC news will have a great scandal to offer sooner than later, only a matter of time...
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Great! If everyone without a job stops applying for one and everyone who is already working goes on strike, then I'll sneak in there under the picket lines and get that jet job that I'm after.
(Don't worry, I won't really).
It's a nice idea, but unfortunately there are still muppets/rich kids who will P2F.
FWIW, I am still of the opinion that the only way to get a jet job now is to get a MPL and then a recommendation from Oxford or Jerez at the same time that the likes of EZY, RYR, TCX, MON, etc are looking for half a dozen cheap FOs to employ for a few years before they
off to work for BA/VS/EK.
Call it a business model...?
(Don't worry, I won't really).
It's a nice idea, but unfortunately there are still muppets/rich kids who will P2F.
FWIW, I am still of the opinion that the only way to get a jet job now is to get a MPL and then a recommendation from Oxford or Jerez at the same time that the likes of EZY, RYR, TCX, MON, etc are looking for half a dozen cheap FOs to employ for a few years before they
off to work for BA/VS/EK.Call it a business model...?
People are never going to stop paying for training. Unfortunately it's the done thing nowadays. It's ok people saying 'Stop paying for it and then the airlines will have to', but let's face it - its not going to happen.
I've plenty of friends who did P2F, and are now with major airlines such as EK, living the life, earning loads of cash. I don't see how they're suffering?????
I've plenty of friends who did P2F, and are now with major airlines such as EK, living the life, earning
loads of cash. I don't see how they're suffering?????
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Oh another thing. If you ha e been chewed up and spat out by the p2f system then I have zero sympathy. You knew the risks and took them. Can't see current pilots striking. Why would they? They have their jobs, theyre ok.
FWIW, I am still of the opinion that the only way to get a jet job now is to get a MPL and then a recommendation from Oxford or Jerez at the same time that the likes of EZY, RYR, TCX, MON,
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I think that it is not only short sighted but self defeating to go the P2F route. A solid GA back ground can give you skills you will never attain going straight to the right seat of an airliner.
Large jets are not nearly as forgiving as small piston or turboprops and require more skill in handling. 99.9 percent of the time everything works fine and the autopilot goes on at 400 feet and you are done flying for the day, but as soon as something goes wrong, if you don't have a strong hand flying background to fall back on you can find yourself and the hundreds sitting behind you, in real trouble. Air France for instance.
There is a lot of talk about it being good fun to have a go in the right seat, but you fail to realize that there are hundreds of actual people who paid hard earned dollars to take that flight, and they didn't pay to be frightened by the inept handling of a 200 hr wannabe who has no business being up at the pointy end.
You are paying to occupy a position that would have formerly been filled by an experience turbo prop pilot, who's departure from his old job would allow you an avenue to learn the skills necessary to properly handle an airliner.
If you speak to any training captain about this issue they will tell you that the difference in skill level is night and day. And that my friends is where you earn your respect in this industry, it's easy to tell who the good operators are, skill speaks for itself.
I think it is a cop out to say that it's the only way to get into the industry these days. It's the only way to get in straight away without putting in any time and effort. If you do go that route you will never have any sympathy from me if you complain about your pay in the future, you have already set the precedent , of what you think you are worth.
Large jets are not nearly as forgiving as small piston or turboprops and require more skill in handling. 99.9 percent of the time everything works fine and the autopilot goes on at 400 feet and you are done flying for the day, but as soon as something goes wrong, if you don't have a strong hand flying background to fall back on you can find yourself and the hundreds sitting behind you, in real trouble. Air France for instance.
There is a lot of talk about it being good fun to have a go in the right seat, but you fail to realize that there are hundreds of actual people who paid hard earned dollars to take that flight, and they didn't pay to be frightened by the inept handling of a 200 hr wannabe who has no business being up at the pointy end.
You are paying to occupy a position that would have formerly been filled by an experience turbo prop pilot, who's departure from his old job would allow you an avenue to learn the skills necessary to properly handle an airliner.
If you speak to any training captain about this issue they will tell you that the difference in skill level is night and day. And that my friends is where you earn your respect in this industry, it's easy to tell who the good operators are, skill speaks for itself.
I think it is a cop out to say that it's the only way to get into the industry these days. It's the only way to get in straight away without putting in any time and effort. If you do go that route you will never have any sympathy from me if you complain about your pay in the future, you have already set the precedent , of what you think you are worth.
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Groundloop is correct. Those FTOs that say you can do the MPL and then they 'place you' are not what they seem. Check lasors or a great publication called so you want to be a pilot. Found on the GAPAN website.
P2F is an aggresive cancer that is spreading fast. The only way to kill it is to stop people signing their fortunes away to exploited. The buck stops with those who are contemplating such madness.
And for those who would dismiss my comments, just hang around a FR base and ask those contract pilots how much they love their job/employer. Might explain why so many of them are off to the ME.
Agreed options are slim, but have a look at how those waiting in the BA hold pool are realising that 'just doing my time and getting the rating' in EZY and FR has help feed the loco expansion, squeezing the T and Cs of the dream BA job they aspired to. Plenty of threads on here covering that.
P2F is an aggresive cancer that is spreading fast. The only way to kill it is to stop people signing their fortunes away to exploited. The buck stops with those who are contemplating such madness.
And for those who would dismiss my comments, just hang around a FR base and ask those contract pilots how much they love their job/employer. Might explain why so many of them are off to the ME.
Agreed options are slim, but have a look at how those waiting in the BA hold pool are realising that 'just doing my time and getting the rating' in EZY and FR has help feed the loco expansion, squeezing the T and Cs of the dream BA job they aspired to. Plenty of threads on here covering that.