Going for it or not..advice please!

[user777]

Good day to all,

I am writing to you because I am thinking about a career change and I just can't make up my mind whether to go for it or not. This is where you come in.

For the last 10+ years I have been working in IT (ecommerce, Internet) in London and Paris. I earn good money, work with young dynamic people, I have what people would call a good career so far, but that is not enough for me. My issue: I am not happy and have not been happy since I started this career. I am hence on the lookout for a real sense in my work. Usefullness, satisfaction, pride..I am believing a pro pilot career could give this to me and allow me to be in peace with myself..By the way, a side effect would be to hold a job that people understand when you explain what you do (parents, kids, partygoers).

I am 34 years old now...my objective is to work with a major in Europe before I am 40.

I have a little history in flying and aerospace..

1995: Failure ab initio LH (sim test)
1996: Success PPL A in Florida (50h)
1999: Success Aéro Engineering UK
1999: Failure ab initio BA (group work)

I think I find it hard to get over the failures at the 2 ab initio programs (when I was younger. If I am here writing about giving my pilot career a 3rd chance, maybe that means I am motivated after all?

Today I am looking at the P2F method to acquire frozen ATPL...as I am too old for the rest (Air Berlin aside maybe).
The more I spend time on PPRUNE or speak to AF or other pilots the more I shy away from this new personal project. High unemployment, high risk...

The real showstopper for me is not the financial effort, but the prospect of being unemployed in 2 years time. People on here are quite vocal about the bad situation. Is it the unemployed that moan and that tends to give the general tone, while many others have found and too busy to post here? I see that phenomenon with Customer Service and frustrated Internet shoppers blogging on the net. They are few but they are loud!

In parallel, Airbus and Boing received orders of new airplanes seem at a high level. Will airlines not need to put pilots into these planes? Or could some orders be cancelled. This is the good news I see when I read the economic news in the papers.

In actual facts, these would be my questions tonight:

1) What do you think of my project given the background info I have supplied and the recrutement situation how you read it?
Should I go ahead or continue in my current job?
(I do understand more new pilots is not good news for unemployed pilots today, good luck to those on a side note).

2) What school would you favour?
a) JAA approved shool in US for integrated programme for about 40K EUR (see Ormond Aviation in FL) or school in Europe (where I live) for about 100K EUR?

3) How do I best go from frozen ATPL with 200h (?) to the apparently critical level of 500h? I understand I need 500h. Where can I land a job when I get out of flight school with my brand new licence? (club, P2F, taxi company)

4) The fatal question of the qualification: I understand most users of this forum encourage STRONGLY not to pay for it (737 A320 etc), for the obvious reason of snowball effect etc.. (some sort of union -)). What if I fly for netjets on Falcon or Global Express at the start of my career, I would not need above mention qualification for large jets, will I?

Thanks for your time, help and comments,
greetings from Paris
E

[ford cortina]

You will be very lucky to get a job with no experience on a biz jet, Falcon or net jet straight out of school

[redsnail]

For starters, NetJets Europe is not hiring. Secondly, the only ab initios NJE took were from their own programme. Also, none of the cadets went to the large cabin fleets.

The cadet scheme is not likely to be repeated any time soon.

[blablabla]

Forget it....2 years to train then 2-3 years unemployed then if you get break 3-4 years flying some piece of **** getting less than people get for working in Tesco`s and by that time your 44-45 great well done...living in some rented house as you had to relocate as you dont live near the airport your based at..spending all your time looking at your roster trying to work out if it will be possible to go home anytime soon and for how long.

[Bearcat F8F]

I only hold a PPL myself but since I have literally just finished it in Ormond Beach (the school is called EASA now), I would advise against it for your ATPL. If possible I would pay more money but find a better quality school. Most instructors at EASA have at best 350 hours. And whilst it may say the cost of the package is 40k, with all the extras (that are inevitable) you will be aiming for at least 60k. At Ormond you get what you pay for. They advertise as if they have a massive fleet, and at best they have 6 Warriors (Cadets) flying at the same time. The Arrow is broken half the time too... I wouldn't go for it.

But that is my personal opinion (shared by many others who were there I must say).

Good luck with whatever you decide!

---------

Btw, guys, I have a question,

If say I wanted to fly business jets... what's the way to get into it? I can't really find any info on this. Pretty much everyone seems to be aiming for the airlines but surely there's gotta be lots of work flying Citations, Learjets ect? I would pick that any day over A380s!! Even if it pays way less!

Could someone shine some light on this please? (sorry I don't mean to steal the thread. Only looking for a brief answer is possible).

Thanks

[Bearcat F8F]

Forget it....2 years to train then 2-3 years unemployed then if you get break 3-4 years flying some piece of **** getting less than people get for working in Tesco`s and by that time your 44-45 great well done...living in some rented house as you had to relocate as you dont live near the airport your based at..spending all your time looking at your roster trying to work out if it will be possible to go home anytime soon and for how long.

Even if I was 40+, that would never stop me. Flying a "POS" is better than not flying at all and making $50 million a year. For me it's never been and never will be about the money. If you want to fly coz it pays well (when you make 744 captain), you are a very sad individual. (and by "you" I am referring to anyone).

I would go for it.

[blablabla]

Some of you people need a reality check. Work is all about money...people only work for money....if its not about the MONEY then go and pay to fly a Warrior if you want to fly so much.
But leave the career flying to the people who do wish to work for money and stop ruining the terms and conditions with your attitude of work is not about getting paid or working for money.....

[Bearcat F8F]

Some of you people need a reality check. Work is all about money...people only work for money....if its not about the MONEY then go and pay to fly a Warrior if you want to fly so much.
But leave the career flying to the people who do wish to work for money and stop ruining the terms and conditions with your attitude of work is not about getting paid or working for money.....

To get paid for something you love doing is great. To opt for money instead of what you love doing is a sad deal. Those who don't love flying shouldn't become pilots - I will not go into detail as to why.

If we take test pilots for instance as the elite of all airmen - none of them get payed as well as airline captains. It was their choice to fly for less money and risk their life considerably more in the process. So WHY did they all sign up? For money? Go figure...

Lets end it there. If you choose to believe otherwise, there is nothing you can say to convince me on the subject.

[Torque Tonight]

Aah the innocent glow of youth.

and never will be about the money.

Come back to us when you have a mortgage, wife, kids, car and training debt from hell.

Flying as a job remains frickin awesome, and those that do it are witty and handsome chisel-jawed skygods, every goddam one of them. There does however come a time when alondside the feeling of how cool flying is, there arrives a feeling that your time and effort should be compensated adequately for the skill, responsibility and effort that you put in. The point of doing a job is to facilitate your quality of life. The belief that the job itself is the point won't last forever, and neither should it.

[zondaracer]

When I was 19, even 23, It was easy for me to say that it is not about the money. But I'm approaching 30 with a wife and two kids, and responsibility and necessity become priorities over living a dream. If there was no potential to make a decent salary in the end after investing so much of my life savings, I would honestly have to find something else. Don't get me wrong, I love flying more than anything, but at a certain point, I have to be able to take care of my family. Pay is also important.


If it was between flying for a low salary or making €50million per year, I'd take the 50 million because I could comfortably provide for my family, easily save up for retirement, and I'd be able to buy my own airplane and fly it where I want, when I want, and how I want.

[zondaracer]

2) What school would you favour?
a) JAA approved shool in US for integrated programme for about 40K EUR (see Ormond Aviation in FL) or school in Europe (where I live) for about 100K EUR?

Ormond Beach/EASA is not integrated. Neither are Naples Air Center, EFT, nor OFT. You can find JAA modular courses in Europe for much less than £100,000. (i know a place in Europe that has the whope program for €35,000) If you do an integrated course, it will definitely be costly.

I'm American, so I originally started with an FAA rating and since I married a European and moved to Europe, I did a JAA conversion. After seeing both sides, I fully recommend to anyone that they do a JAA rating in Europe. If you want a FAA certificate, go to the US. Going to the US to get a JAA license is a little bit backwards if you ask me but lots of guys do it.

[Piloto2011]

I am 34 years old now...my objective is to work with a major in Europe before I am 40.

What if I fly for netjets on Falcon or Global Express at the start of my career

LOL! Monsieur, dude, are you for real?!

You should appreciate the majority of people will have to work/wait for years, if not decades, on getting hired by the majors such as BA. Not very few people will even have to work their entire careers on eventually getting hired on a 737/320 with a smaller operator. It's absolutely delusional to think, and simply false, to expect this happening right at the start of your career. I have several friends, who have all forked out the 50k plus on their training with exactly that mindset, and guess what they are doing today? Erm no, not flying.

NetJets is one of, if not the most prestigious, bizjet operator in Europe and the US. 3-4 years ago, before the crisis hit, their requirements were 1,500h total, of which 500 had to be flown on twin aircraft. A few people managed to get in with those 500h flown on aircraft such as a Mr. Cessna's Crusader, etc. Unthinkable today. Not only are they not hiring but also working off a huge backlog of pilots sent on leave. I got the thinking, should they ever take on new guys in the foreseeable future, it will be those with TP and jet experience. Not to mention ex military. And they will have on-type hours well over 1,000. No chance of competing with them as a rookie. Unless you know Mr. chief pilot himself? Somehow I doubt you do.

My genuine advice to you is, go try to get in with CTC and/or BA as a cadet (if you do not exceed their age limit). I believe there's some form of other sponsorships out there, e.g. Atlantic Airlines? Should that not work out for you, do it on your own by going MODULAR. Get your ATPLs out of your way while you keep working your IT job. It might take a little longer and will be exhausting but you will not lose any money. Maybe even downgrade to a 50% contract? When your exams are sat and passed take 3-6 months leave and ge the rest of your training done, e.g. CPL, ME, IR, MCC. Where, you will have to find out yourself. There is pros and cons to every option and a lot of literature can be found on the Net and here. I suggest you do a lot of research beforehand. Most important rule IMHO: try to get it as cheap as possible. I know people are going to shoot me down now, but I have flown with integrated grads from the presumably leading UK FTO and I was not impressed. In fact, I was a bit shocked as they did not know some of the most simple things, yet they had paid 30k more than me. Do read a lot, talk to as many people as you can, and maybe even visit a few schools to make a sensible decision, which suits you best. Come to think now, going integrated does have one important benefit: it might give you an interview at the end of it. So you see, lots to think about.

Oh, yes, when training, especially abroad, please do yourself a favor and follow rule #1: never ever pay upfront!

Lastly, be prepared financially and emotionally to work badly paid jobs in the beginning after school. Pay you cannot, or at best, hardly live on. Also, keep in mind, preparing for and attending interviews might cost you up to another five grand before securing that first elusive job (a pre sim session can easily amount to 700-1,000). Overheads no school will ever make mention of. The license is just the ticket for your apprenticeship.

It's a rocky road my friend. And as one captain once said to me, not the best will make it but those who try the hardest.

Personally, I have made only around ten grand with flying so far in three years since coming out of flight school, but I have always managed to secure flying jobs and loved every single minute of it. Only God knows where this will take me but rest assured, if I would be given the call again, whether to go or not to go, I sure as hell would do it all over again.

Bonne chance!

[oldspool]

Do yourself a favour, spend an evening each night this week searching for similar threads on Pprune. As you say, people who post here have vastly different views and different motivations for posting, but as there are hundreds of such posts I think you'll find that by reading enough of them a couple of core messages prevail:

- It's never too late to start, however as Piloto2011 says, you need to be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices, both financial and emotional, and as a rule of thumb the later you start the greater these sacrifices will be.

- Ideally you want to qualify debt free which will enable you to take the low paid jobs that may come your way as a low hours pilot. Reality check: the sorts of jobs you'll be eligible for will be low paid and there will be huge competition for them from pilots with more experience than you.

- Don't do a P2F scheme.

I don't want to discourage you, and I don't want to offend you, but your post indicates that your expectations are not overly realistic. It gives me no pleasure to say this, but Global Express at Netjets as an entry level job isn't going to happen my friend.

As I say, my advice would be to have a good search of the forum, and to look at whether your expectations are realistic.

Good luck

[Superpilot]

Looks like you had the interest in flying very early on and like me you found yourself to become very successful in another career and stayed on. Similar story here, from 18 to 26 (after the PPL) I put the flying career on the back burner, since then completed the training, did a SSTR and went back to work contracting. Guess what? it was only this year I found my lucky break 4 years after completing my fATPL. In that time I only got 2 assessment opportunities. Each day, the airlines and schools find something else to discriminate against. You'll be 36 by the time you finish, even if you did a gold plated integrated course with Oxford paying out of your rear and came out shining they absolutely will not treat you in the same way they would treat a 22yo. I.e, you'd be ignored when it came to job opportunities. You'd be left on your own and trust me without connections that is a horrible and painful place to be.

It's a massive risk. I believe ultimately everyone who tries very hard gets what they were originally set out to but it comes with blood, sweat and tears.

Don't pay attention to the anti-P2F brigade, they in their lofty positions have no idea what it's like in this morally brankrupt airline pilot recruitment industry these days. Had I ignored their advice 3 years ago I wouldn't have struggled so much!

[trainee99]

User777. Give yourself the best possible chance of a job afterwards. The likes of CTC and oat have the best links with the airlines and run various mentored schemes that link directly into the airlines. There's a lot of negativity about such schemes with people wingeing that you're paying to get straight into a big shiny jet etc. But like it or not, that is the best way to ensure you'll get a job that justifies the big outlay of cash that you'll inevitably have to make whichever way you go about it. I wouldn't have done it any other way because in my opinion, whilst I love my job and I was pursuing a life long ambition, but you mustn't forget that you're there to make the company money ultimately and to make a living yourself, so it has to be a measured risk with some sort of commitment from a future employer and a reasonable chance of success in my opinion. There's a lot of horror stories on here; even CTC guys have to wait sometimes for the full contracts, but at least there's still the direct links and someone working on your behalf to try and find you a way in as opposed to you sending out countless CVs before landing your 15k a year air taxi job 2 years later. However much fun and good experience that might be, it'll do little to dent the debt pile, even with the saving you made by going it alone.. I'm certain that not everyone will agree with this but that would be my advice.. Good luck whatever you choose to do.

[bedix84]

User777 definitly go for it!!!
If to FLY is your dream don't make someone else stop you, you'll regret it later in your life.
It's not simple, that's it the real story, but you need to evaluate all your options and do a plan and see your perspective.( look at details!)
Anyway a good school in USA, JAA , is European Flight Training Fort Pierce in FL..take information,contact them, but be sure, it's a good school and remember every school have his bad and his good.
I think in 1 year and half you'll get all your licence (Atpl Jaa $49,999 ), then If you have money and you wish you can join P2f program ,actually jettraining.net and eaglejet give you a chance to get in a job...even if,my firend, I'm againt these programs!!!.

Leave any School like Oxford or CTC ect....good school, but with the same amount of money you pay 3 type ratings!!

Do everithing you want to do in you life to feel better!

[stefair]

before landing your 15k a year air taxi job 2 years later. However much fun and good experience that might be, it'll do little to dent the debt pile, even with the saving you made by going it alone..

I will have to disagree with that one.

Friend of mine has just started with CTC as a cadet and is being charged hefty 90 grand for the whole thing. Not euro, sterling. If I understand him correctly he will have to fork out another 8k sterling for a TR with easy upon finishing.

So let's say he manages to complete his training in the given hours and is charged exactly that 90k plus the cost for their SSTR. At the current exchange rate that leaves him with around EUR110,000 out of pocket. And that is without interest. My dear Jesus!

Even if he manages to make it straight into easy on their FlexiCrew contract it will take him 10-15, if not 20 years to pay it all back.

I myself got the ticket for EUR50k all in and am still digusted by the debts I am stuck with. However, I have been flying and I am flying and even though I am not paying back much each month I will be able to pay it back much much quicker.

And aside from the financial part, do people really need to get straight onto a jet? Flying SEs and small twins before moving on to TPs is a great experience and simply good fun.

[trainee99]

Stefair, is that the wings scheme? If so, I might have to reconsider my advice! I laid down 60k including type rating 7 years ago for the same scheme which, whilst expensive seemed a reasonable punt as the most likely to land me a job and it yielded a jet permanent contract. I understood that it had gone up but didn't realise by how much - 98k, + the interest accrued over the period of repayment is an incredible sum of money and leaves me wondering which route, if any - would I take now, knowing full well that the self improver route is a risky option and that stefair will have worked very hard for that first job and has a number of doors to knock down before making it worthwhile financially, and that many will not have his/her persistence coupled with a little luck. I agree that getting to into the jet isn't the be all and end all, but for me at least, being paid a decent wage comensurate with the time and effort put in over the years is - the final achievement of an f(ATPL) is not the whole story for most, whichever route they choose, but rather the final step - most will have had other careers, and flying-wise will have done the cadet thing, UAS, some private flying, maybe some gliding and so forth - the final modular or itegrated course for many is the final step in a long dedication and passion in aviation. I'm not implying that I or anyone else is owed a job, the system is as it is, but since I now fly revenue flights for my airline who make a lot of money, I feel that there should be some sort of strict selection at the start of training and some sort of risk shared by training providers or airlines. To ask people - who may not be suitable for the job and for whom there may not be jobs anyway - to part with a massive amount of cash is not a good system. I think that many on these forums disagree. Since my thoughts are possibly outdated I'll duck out and wish u777 the best of luck with his decision making!

[ramshorn]

Let there be light

Hey mate...

If you really feel that it is what you want to do I would never put someone off going for that goal... I believe that MOST people can do anything they set their mind on if they have a certain amount of intelligence, diligence and most of all determination(and money!)

I started my Commercial training when I set out on a distance learning course from Bristol Groundschool in 2004(Age 30). I passed all my exams in Spring 2005 and went to European Flight Training for my CPL training...

Worked hard over the Winter of 05/06 and went to get MEP/IR in May 2006 followed immediately by MCC training...

It wasn't until 6 months after completing my fATPL that the reality of the job market dawned on me which was a far cry from the optimistic picture I'd painted myself... 100's of emails sent with carefully scripted cover letters and designed cv's and maybe 1 in 100 answers basically saying thanks but no thanks...

Basically its all a matter of demand and supply... There are 100's of trained pilots out there looking for work at the same time as you... You need to try to get ahead of everyone else in the que.

The only way to do this is to instruct or do some aerial photography flying etc... However even these jobs are difficult to come by so be prepared to graft in order to get ahead...

I personally went and got an Instructors rating and worked as an Instructor for 3 years before recently getting my 1st jet job...

FYI.. I only started getting positive responses from sending CV's when I had got about 1000 hrs...

The real key to this is getting to know people in the industry and showing that you are determined to get there...

I spent 3 years as a full time instructor which got me a fair amount of of hours and gave me the confidence to keep pushing forward with my goal. However I was earning a sub 20k salary(this is a good instructors salary!) and my life had essentially been on hold for 5 years...

My break came when I decided to stop instructing and get a ground based job with a biz jet operator at Uk's busiest biz jet airfield..
This was last November and I was offered my 1st jet job in July. Funnily enough not with the company that were going to give me a job but with another company on the airfield which I acquired through meeting people there...

So.... in answer to your questions... I would recommend it wholeheartedly because the end goal when achieved is so rewarding..
However be prepared to not only have to face alot of adversity but also to have to spend alot of money(40k+ for modular) Most likely especially with your age you will prob need to pay for a TR... (depending on aircraft but entry level biz jet 10-15k or 320,737, 25-30k..

Saying all this. This is my experience... I heard of people having to do what I've done over 7 years whilst I was training and remember thinking.. that won't happen to me! I'll get lucky and have a job within 6 months to a year.. with 250 hrs! How wrong was I!! In truth I do know people who did get lucky and got employed with Airlines within 6 months of finishing training but they did ALL pay for Type ratings... around 25k as far as I remember... Unfortunately I didn't have this at the time so was unable to go down that road...

If you need any more information feel free to contact me..

Good luck with it all... It's all very worth while in the end!

[user777]

Thanks for your contributions!

Hello gentlemen, Monsieurs as we say over here in Frogland,

I greatly appreciated your responses, both in terms of response time and content. I really saw that you are interested in my subject and most of you gave me conditional green lights, which I see as an encouraging factor.

The truth is, I am used to a good lifestyle and I am not sure if I can hack being a rookie (again) in this new career field. This is honest, I cannot say that my sole motivation is just flying, no it is also the lifestyle.

Dividing my next salary by 4 or 5 vs current and waiting 10 years to be where I am today does look a like a big sacrifice, mind you if it wasnt for the psychological effect, then it would be a no brainer. No family, no debts, no physical attachment to a location...

Finally, I have 2 other options to go for cadets with less stringent age max limits: Air Berlin and City Jet. I will try those and then see if go modular/integrated in UK or in the US.

Best of luck to you all,
More comments are welcome if you have Einstein inspiration coming to you..