To those of us who are not flying..how are you dealing with it?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To those of us who are not flying..how are you dealing with it?
Hi all,
Given that I'd suspect there are quite a large number of us who are not being paid to fly at the moment, I'm interested in how others are coping with it, keeping the money coming in and finding other employment?
Also, how do approach the fact you have ATPL training on your CV? When I apply for new jobs (non flying), I tend to not put too much emphasis on my training as I think it might be looked at by an employer as a reason not to hire me, as they assume I'm going to leave at the first opportunity. I usually downplay it, and explain that I was working part time (which is true) and that I'm not looking to get into flying commerically and I'm just building hours at weekends.
It's a sad state of affairs, as normally one would want to be very proud of their achievement, but unless you're looking for temp work which pays poorly, I find it's something that raises more concerns. Even now, I've noticed some Airlines actually stating in their non-flying roles, "this job is not suitable for qualified pilots", as they know we might try to use it as a way of getting a foot in the door.
I'm just trying to keep my head above water and in the skies for an hour a month if I can manage it, working in an office, but it is tough. I hope some of the many wannabees take note of this and realise that once out of an FTO it can be very very difficult.
BTW, I'm not looking for sympathy of any kind, I'm just interested to know how others like me are managing.
Given that I'd suspect there are quite a large number of us who are not being paid to fly at the moment, I'm interested in how others are coping with it, keeping the money coming in and finding other employment?
Also, how do approach the fact you have ATPL training on your CV? When I apply for new jobs (non flying), I tend to not put too much emphasis on my training as I think it might be looked at by an employer as a reason not to hire me, as they assume I'm going to leave at the first opportunity. I usually downplay it, and explain that I was working part time (which is true) and that I'm not looking to get into flying commerically and I'm just building hours at weekends.
It's a sad state of affairs, as normally one would want to be very proud of their achievement, but unless you're looking for temp work which pays poorly, I find it's something that raises more concerns. Even now, I've noticed some Airlines actually stating in their non-flying roles, "this job is not suitable for qualified pilots", as they know we might try to use it as a way of getting a foot in the door.
I'm just trying to keep my head above water and in the skies for an hour a month if I can manage it, working in an office, but it is tough. I hope some of the many wannabees take note of this and realise that once out of an FTO it can be very very difficult.
BTW, I'm not looking for sympathy of any kind, I'm just interested to know how others like me are managing.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
I know exactly what you are talking about. I am also working in an office to pay my bills. It is very rare that I get to see a cockpit from the inside.
In order to get my office job I had to be really careful regarding my training. Most companies turned me down calling it "overqualified". In other words, they knew I would leave the minute there would be a flying job. I guess one can't really blame them for it.
It was not until I changed my training on my VC to "studies in aviation" that companies became less worried.
It is very tough indeed and I feel that with every month I sit here behind the desk I become less employable by the airlines.
I guess the trick is not to give up and to use the money we save for some sim hours. I have just booked a JOC at OAA to get me back onto a structured course with sim hours on a large Multi Crew plane.
Just don't give up though! My brother in law finished training beginning of the 90s...worst possible time. He waited for ages and ages, but now he is a captain on the 777.
It will happen...one day
I know exactly what you are talking about. I am also working in an office to pay my bills. It is very rare that I get to see a cockpit from the inside.
In order to get my office job I had to be really careful regarding my training. Most companies turned me down calling it "overqualified". In other words, they knew I would leave the minute there would be a flying job. I guess one can't really blame them for it.
It was not until I changed my training on my VC to "studies in aviation" that companies became less worried.
It is very tough indeed and I feel that with every month I sit here behind the desk I become less employable by the airlines.
I guess the trick is not to give up and to use the money we save for some sim hours. I have just booked a JOC at OAA to get me back onto a structured course with sim hours on a large Multi Crew plane.
Just don't give up though! My brother in law finished training beginning of the 90s...worst possible time. He waited for ages and ages, but now he is a captain on the 777.
It will happen...one day
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did my training like 2.5 years ago, couldn't manage to find that first job. I do feel a bit ashamed to say that I been eating in my parents money till now after spending their 50k+
I am doing a degree thru correspondence finished 1st year successfully, 2 more years left if I dont get the pilot job then I am going to find other employments.
Here in India GA is nil and lets say I dont find that pilot job in like 2 to 3 years I will be 27 years and airlines wont consider someone with just a CPL by that age.
I am doing a degree thru correspondence finished 1st year successfully, 2 more years left if I dont get the pilot job then I am going to find other employments.
Here in India GA is nil and lets say I dont find that pilot job in like 2 to 3 years I will be 27 years and airlines wont consider someone with just a CPL by that age.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Every place but home
Age: 47
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am currently working for a car manufacturer,to pay bills and pay training debts, and flying I am currently doing Parachute dropping to keep those hours ticking over, doesn't pay much but does cover my petrol to and from work . I am also doing some dispatch work at the local airport when I can.
It is a struggle for us all but to me it is a matter of doing all I can to both provide for my family, pay my debts but still keep my dream alive, is very hard work but I hope one day in the not to distant future it will all be worth it. And I am sure I am not the only one doing similar jobs.
Good luck to all and keep the faith
. I am also doing some dispatch work at the local airport when I can.It is a struggle for us all but to me it is a matter of doing all I can to both provide for my family, pay my debts but still keep my dream alive, is very hard work but I hope one day in the not to distant future it will all be worth it. And I am sure I am not the only one doing similar jobs.
Good luck to all and keep the faith
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: somewhere on this planet
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3rd crisis for me, 1990,2001,2008, so I am pretty comfortable and laugh at the guys who will throw the towel and complain because they are 27-30-35 years old.
I am going to give you my special secret for you in the futur:
when economic is good: SAVE !
when economic is not good: KEEP A LOW PROFILE !
I am going to give you my special secret for you in the futur:
when economic is good: SAVE !
when economic is not good: KEEP A LOW PROFILE !
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was lucky enough to be taken back by my old employer once I finished training in early 2010. Have applied for umpteen jobs in aviation, both flying and non-flying, but had no luck. I definitely know what you're saying about being unemployable. Sometimes seems like the licences are more of a curse!
I'm now in position where I can progress my career in marketing if I want to but get further out of aviation... or keep trying to get something in aviation despite the large pay cut and the fact that once I leave my current career track I can never really go back.
For now i'll keep trying the latter option and pray things turn around!
I'm now in position where I can progress my career in marketing if I want to but get further out of aviation... or keep trying to get something in aviation despite the large pay cut and the fact that once I leave my current career track I can never really go back.
For now i'll keep trying the latter option and pray things turn around!
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: under 10,000'
Age: 41
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a year ago, i suddenly got lucky. nope, not flying job wise, but landed myself a pretty decent desk job. got some money saved up to finish off my IR but im fast approaching 29.
Will I get a flying job at this age? I am not looking to go straight into a 747 or anything, just a multi engine charter or turboprop would do ( I Wish!!!). Are we getting too old waiting for the magic to happen???
Will I get a flying job at this age? I am not looking to go straight into a 747 or anything, just a multi engine charter or turboprop would do ( I Wish!!!). Are we getting too old waiting for the magic to happen???
Educated Hillbilly
Laid off from my turboprop job mid 2008; then went back to contract Aerospace Engineering. Now doing a bit of part time instructing for a few private syndicates (differences training and check outs) on the side, its not a massive amount of flying but certainly get to fly stuff more interesting than you find at the average flying club.
Don't worry about age anyone, the two ways to get jobs 1) net working / knowing the right people 2) Paying for rating + line hours. These have nothing to do with age. I have known plenty of colleagues who got their first flying job in their late thirties to mid forties. Even knew two long term time part time instructors who got offered air taxi work when in their fifties.
Don't worry about age anyone, the two ways to get jobs 1) net working / knowing the right people 2) Paying for rating + line hours. These have nothing to do with age. I have known plenty of colleagues who got their first flying job in their late thirties to mid forties. Even knew two long term time part time instructors who got offered air taxi work when in their fifties.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CPL/IR training is a waste of energy and money for many persons.
The "make your dream come true" sometime becomes a real horror story.
What is hapening is pathetic.
That's like a lawyer renting a complete court and judge to stay current with the hope to find a job.
Or a surgeron finishing his training and renting the hospital to practice in order to have more chance to get a position.
It started in the 90s, and it's getting worse and worse (MCC, then TR, now pay to work...).
Something has to be done. More information has to be given to the future potential candidates.
The only way to go: no debts, basic CPL, and vfr single job somewhere on earth. Have a blast. Fly, enjoy, don't participate the jet rat race, the best decision you can make nowadays.
Good luck anyway.
The "make your dream come true" sometime becomes a real horror story.
What is hapening is pathetic.
That's like a lawyer renting a complete court and judge to stay current with the hope to find a job.
Or a surgeron finishing his training and renting the hospital to practice in order to have more chance to get a position.
It started in the 90s, and it's getting worse and worse (MCC, then TR, now pay to work...).
Something has to be done. More information has to be given to the future potential candidates.
The only way to go: no debts, basic CPL, and vfr single job somewhere on earth. Have a blast. Fly, enjoy, don't participate the jet rat race, the best decision you can make nowadays.
Good luck anyway.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it can turn out to be a horror story, but a lot of it depends on how you approach it. I think it's interesting to hear how others are coping, and hopefully to the thousands of wannabees they will take notice of this and open their eyes. Then again, all it takes is one swish marketing seminar from a big FTO and they're running to the bank to sign up. I am still hoping that one day I will be able to fully use my licence, however I often think I should have done a ppl and left it at that. And this is coming from someone who has wanted to fly planes from the age of 5. Bad times!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: AATW
Age: 45
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CPL in CV
I have my CPL in my CV as well as ATPL theory.
I have lost my non flying but aviation job in April 2010 after six years, finished my ATPL, done my CPL, applied for job, got invited and flew for the interview.
Also I made sure that interviewer knew that as soon as we greeted.
He is my boss today.
He later admitted that it was bit showing off but has been impressed with the fact that my AC is parked in front of his hangar :-) and my passion for airline industry.
I am contracting for major in UK on IT project and just about to start my IR.
Keep money coming in, hours counting up and dream going on...
I have lost my non flying but aviation job in April 2010 after six years, finished my ATPL, done my CPL, applied for job, got invited and flew for the interview.
Also I made sure that interviewer knew that as soon as we greeted.
He is my boss today.
He later admitted that it was bit showing off but has been impressed with the fact that my AC is parked in front of his hangar :-) and my passion for airline industry.
I am contracting for major in UK on IT project and just about to start my IR.
Keep money coming in, hours counting up and dream going on...
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Blighty
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are flexible, keen and can learn then I wouldn't worry about your age. In fact I would go as far to say as put it right in the back of your mind so as not to let it hinder your chances.
I've seen more mature folk who have a bit of an issue working alongside younger captains and they didn't get very far.
It seems in the corporate world that there are quite a few first jobs going to late 20's early 30's. I'm not involved in recruitment but it could have a lot to do with how you come across during interview, if you can hold mature decent conversations then you might be a better fit than someone who still needs to grow up a bit. You can't hide away in the flightdeck of corporate flying and all members of the crew will have contact with the passengers. If I think about it there seems to be a greater proportion of more mature chaps in the corporate handling world too. Coincidence? Maybe.
If you get a good corporate job they are far better than anything any airline can offer
I've seen more mature folk who have a bit of an issue working alongside younger captains and they didn't get very far.
It seems in the corporate world that there are quite a few first jobs going to late 20's early 30's. I'm not involved in recruitment but it could have a lot to do with how you come across during interview, if you can hold mature decent conversations then you might be a better fit than someone who still needs to grow up a bit. You can't hide away in the flightdeck of corporate flying and all members of the crew will have contact with the passengers. If I think about it there seems to be a greater proportion of more mature chaps in the corporate handling world too. Coincidence? Maybe.
If you get a good corporate job they are far better than anything any airline can offer
Last edited by windypops; 7th Jun 2011 at 11:38. Reason: version 1.2 with grammatical amendments
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gate
Age: 41
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Completed my f.ATPL Oct 2009. Im still with my 250s since hour- building in Europe is ridiculously expensive. Whatever i saved last year was spent on renewals and this is what i ll probably do in a few months. Prior to my flight training i had already obtained my engineering degree so now im using it professionally until my dream job opportunity shows up.
All this time i ve been filling out those endless applications (as if im applying to the CIA or something
) and spending hours and hours on all those sites trying to spot a tiny little SE job in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, i ve given up that shinny 320-737 thing, thats for the rich kids, or for the "lucky" ones with a captain dad. Fact is i started getting tired of all this. I never thought i would feel that way but here i am. Of course i will never give up till i get my RHS...on anything, anywhere. Late 20s clock is ticking for me as well and i really hope the turnover is close.
Looking at the glass as half-full, and assuming we all get a job at our mid thirties ....30 years of flying sounds a lot, so do not give up and leave depression at the terminal. The sky is UP! Good luck to everyone, it will come eventually...its a matter of time!
All this time i ve been filling out those endless applications (as if im applying to the CIA or something
) and spending hours and hours on all those sites trying to spot a tiny little SE job in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, i ve given up that shinny 320-737 thing, thats for the rich kids, or for the "lucky" ones with a captain dad. Fact is i started getting tired of all this. I never thought i would feel that way but here i am. Of course i will never give up till i get my RHS...on anything, anywhere. Late 20s clock is ticking for me as well and i really hope the turnover is close.Looking at the glass as half-full, and assuming we all get a job at our mid thirties ....30 years of flying sounds a lot, so do not give up and leave depression at the terminal. The sky is UP! Good luck to everyone, it will come eventually...its a matter of time!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Age: 37
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why would people even include ATPL qualifications in a CV for a non-flying job? Just leave it out if it's causing you problems. Thought that was the first rule of CV writing!
And I think overqualified is the wrong word...more like specialised
And I think overqualified is the wrong word...more like specialised
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SE UK
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kryiakos
"Yeah, i ve given up that shinny 320-737 thing, thats for the rich kids, or for the "lucky" ones with a captain dad."
I am neither rich or have a captain dad, but drive one of the above, late 20's and about to start a widebody course. Don't have a bitter attitude, stay focused and keep going.
A friend of mine was out of training (modular) and after 4+ years of searching, got himself into a regional jet.
"Yeah, i ve given up that shinny 320-737 thing, thats for the rich kids, or for the "lucky" ones with a captain dad."
I am neither rich or have a captain dad, but drive one of the above, late 20's and about to start a widebody course. Don't have a bitter attitude, stay focused and keep going.
A friend of mine was out of training (modular) and after 4+ years of searching, got himself into a regional jet.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: under 10,000'
Age: 41
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
zondaracer and maxed out
hahah you guys cracked me up. i still feel young especially with the sheilas !!
just implying that having a desk job to save up for flying sucks big time. i now have friends who started flying with me doing command training etc while i sit on soil trying to save up for instrument rating. just depressing. as i have said, i am making decent money nowadays, so not complaining but at the end of the day, it just sucks! period! dont think of me as a dreamer. i listen to the guys who say i will get there one day, just dont know when. thats what is depressing.
anyway, this was a way to exhale the frustration. lets keep trying!
hahah you guys cracked me up. i still feel young especially with the sheilas !!
just implying that having a desk job to save up for flying sucks big time. i now have friends who started flying with me doing command training etc while i sit on soil trying to save up for instrument rating. just depressing. as i have said, i am making decent money nowadays, so not complaining but at the end of the day, it just sucks! period! dont think of me as a dreamer. i listen to the guys who say i will get there one day, just dont know when. thats what is depressing.
anyway, this was a way to exhale the frustration. lets keep trying!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 40
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i'm starting to get upset, honestly. an airline better give me a chance with an interview because I really feel like stealing a G-V and sell it somewhere in central africa.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Kyriakos:
So, like many others your "back up" plan is your main one.
How much money and how many years did you spend on your degree? I have a "self fulfilling back up plan" theory. Many people working years on their back up plan before preparing their pilot career have more debts, miss the hiring train, and at the end congratulates themselves to have a back up plan because they use it.
Sorry if it doesn't concern you, but many times I met young and older individuals victim of their "self-fulfilling back up plan".
A truck driver earns more than an engineer with a degree, so money is not the issue in the back up plan decision process.
Some "candidates" (wannabe) are kids wanting a social status (jet...), some others only want to be pilot.
It is extremely easy to become a pilot. A cheap basic CPL, no debts but at the opposite some savings (if you are a truck driver or something like that it's not an issue) and a vfr job in africa/canada/usa/PNG...... Any motivated person without debs can do it, and have the pilot blast of their life flying bush, which is the essence, the spirit of the pilot career and purpose, travelling and being a link between 2 points without road access, a kind of mission.
Funny enough, almost nobody choose this path that leads to pilot, but instead spend 10/15 years to go through back up plan, work, filing up candidate files for the big airlines, than eventually start with no savings as a F/O, F/O meaning nowaday being student pilot, meanwhile the bush pilot already changed career without debts and no regrets, or is captain on turboprop/turbofan.
It is harder and harder for the society, the older pilots, the companies to appreciate positively the modern pilot, the one who wants a social status and only that, the dreamer that would never fly in Nepal on challenging runway and airplanes, the spoiled kid who spend all the money he can find around him, from the bank to his GF's. This is the 2011 student pilot, this is what he became. As a result for many of them, instead of living a dream they became losers (sorry) unable to master their destiny, needing more money, waiting, dreaming their life until they retire and the movie ends.
Completed my f.ATPL Oct 2009. Im still with my 250s since hour- building in Europe is ridiculously expensive. Whatever i saved last year was spent on renewals and this is what i ll probably do in a few months. Prior to my flight training i had already obtained my engineering degree so now im using it professionally until my dream job opportunity shows up.
How much money and how many years did you spend on your degree? I have a "self fulfilling back up plan" theory. Many people working years on their back up plan before preparing their pilot career have more debts, miss the hiring train, and at the end congratulates themselves to have a back up plan because they use it.
Sorry if it doesn't concern you, but many times I met young and older individuals victim of their "self-fulfilling back up plan".
A truck driver earns more than an engineer with a degree, so money is not the issue in the back up plan decision process.
Some "candidates" (wannabe) are kids wanting a social status (jet...), some others only want to be pilot.
It is extremely easy to become a pilot. A cheap basic CPL, no debts but at the opposite some savings (if you are a truck driver or something like that it's not an issue) and a vfr job in africa/canada/usa/PNG...... Any motivated person without debs can do it, and have the pilot blast of their life flying bush, which is the essence, the spirit of the pilot career and purpose, travelling and being a link between 2 points without road access, a kind of mission.
Funny enough, almost nobody choose this path that leads to pilot, but instead spend 10/15 years to go through back up plan, work, filing up candidate files for the big airlines, than eventually start with no savings as a F/O, F/O meaning nowaday being student pilot, meanwhile the bush pilot already changed career without debts and no regrets, or is captain on turboprop/turbofan.
It is harder and harder for the society, the older pilots, the companies to appreciate positively the modern pilot, the one who wants a social status and only that, the dreamer that would never fly in Nepal on challenging runway and airplanes, the spoiled kid who spend all the money he can find around him, from the bank to his GF's. This is the 2011 student pilot, this is what he became. As a result for many of them, instead of living a dream they became losers (sorry) unable to master their destiny, needing more money, waiting, dreaming their life until they retire and the movie ends.