Easyjet New Ab-initio scheme :)

[vikdream]

Can anyone clarify the total cost for the EZ MPL course without living costs? I read 85K and 104K, just wondering which was the right one...

Thx!

[ct8282]

Without living costs, £85k mate.

I'd love to now how many people have actually applied for this course??

[kingofkabul]

I asked OAA how many apps they expect and they estimated in excess of 500. I think that is a bit bullish given the high cost, we shall see. The BBVA loan is available (secured) with a 10 year repayment term.

[Denti]

85k sterling? Remember, both lufthansa and air berlin charge only 60k € for their MPLs (not upfront) and the job at the end might not be guaranteed, but so far everybody found a seat on either an airbus or boeing. Both have rigorous selection procedures as well. Only downside is the damn language...

[dbriglee]

Interesting!
I think they have edited the FAQs since posting the initial advert!

Now i cannot see anywhere relating to the £104K they said about in the beginning, with costing of accommodation etc .. (and im certain they said you HAVE to stay on site at Oxford, and planned out £210 a week staying in the halls of residence and food)

It's now changed though to say 85K, with a change to the accommodation of being able to live anywhere now, as it says.

This is just clever advertising! It's not 85K atall, it's 85K, PLUS , living at oxford, plus hotel cost at Gatwick.

What rubbish..... Anyone wanting to do this, cost it out. More like over 100K.

Oxford isnt cheap to rent either! 78 weeks, of which you will be in gatwick for 66 hours, 8 weeks, (so that is costing £1700, with the discounted hotels, B+B NOT lunch OR dinner... at gatwick airport, good luck with that!)

You have 70 weeks left, of costings they dont even talk about .
RUBBISH

[ct8282]

Interesting. Just been reading through the FAQ's again and things do seem to have changed a little. They have indeed removed the total values covering accommodation costs but do still mention that this needs to be factored in to overall costings.

However, when you consider that the A320 type training is also included in the total cost is this really too different to any other integrated course? Bear in mind that OAA's APP Integrated course is £72k (most FTO's are similar for integrated courses) and dosen't include a type rating it's actually all a much of a muchness after all, if not slightly better value for money! And in theory the MPL should see you right into the RHS of the Airbus and at a higher salary? Hmmm, starting to become more compelling the more I think about it.

However, I hate the way they keep referring to the selection process as a competition. I realise that's exactly what it is but just don't think it's productive to talk about it in the way they do....

"Please take appropriate care and check carefully for grammatical and spelling errors before you submit; remember, this is a competition where careless errors may count against you".

[flyer456]

Just to throw it out there, I'm a wannabe in the fortunate position of being able to fund this course with no more than a small loan.

And i'm not even going to apply. If I was sat on my ass in England right now I might, but as i have something productive to do elsewhere i'm going to sit this one out and hope a better proposition comes up in the next 12 months. Can't see it getting more rock bottom than that. 104k without any details of future employment terms.

[BusinessMan]

"bespoke secured loan from BBVA London to help with initial fees, available to UK residents" (from the OAA FAQs).

Anyone know the max amount BBVA will lend? Just curious, since I can't see it being anywhere near the required amount (?)

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I've had a read throught the Q&A on the OAA website. This is an abysmal deal. You just end up as a Parc contract pilot who has to work for easyjet.

The CTC cadet deal in 2004 was £60k. That was expensive enough. But that was it, all in, no extra crap like "oh by the way, its £210 a week to sleep in one of our dorms and eat in the canteen, and don't worry we will get you a discount on a hotel that we are already in bed with, you lucky, carefully selected, chosen few".

You're telling me that basically the same course I did 6 years ago is now £40k more expensive? Thats £40,000. Thats £100,000+ in total. For the priveledge of being a contract pilot on a random rape roster with easyjet.

Ezy and Oxford are ripping you off. Schemes like this only exist while people are prepared to pay for them. I wouldn't touch it with a big stick covered in .

[hollingworthp]

I wouldn't imagine there is much of an upper limit on the BBVA loan as it is essentially a second mortgage - so as long as there is enough equity on a suitable property then you are set. (Although you want to be VERY certain you have a backup plan to meet the enormous repayments on £100k+)

[mark_c]

As far as i remember, when reading through the original FAQ's it was a requirement to occupy the oxford accomodation... That has also changed now you can stay in a carboard box outsite it if you want!! And after forking out that amount of money i wouldnt be surprised if people did

Its strange that they are changing the info on the FAQ page... Maybe they are reading this page and realising they up!

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

It would appear that as a contractor, they can put you off line for as long as they like, leaving you with nothing to show for your 100K or so. That is if they do this before 1500hrs. Before 1500hrs and achieving your ATPL, you have nowhere to go. You are restricted to EZY's AOC. you can't go flying for anyone else. Post 1500 hrs you are the same as any other ATPL holder. Contracting under these restrictions???? after forking our that money???? Yep you sure may have an A320 rating. But without an ATPL to your name, if they chop you, you be stuffed little Juan.

Happy contracting

[stuckgear]

I hate the way they keep referring to the selection process as a competition.

That's exactly what it is, a bit like X-Factor for aviation. 'Yes you too could be a hero pilot with gold bars on your shoulder, Making the big time flying for ever decreasing T&C's that we as an FTO are pushing down the toilet'.

And then when there's nothing left to milk you for, drop you like a hot brick.

It would appear that as a contractor, they can put you off line for as long as they like, leaving you with nothing to show for your 100K or so. That is if they do this before 1500hrs. Before 1500hrs and achieving your ATPL, you have nowhere to go. You are restricted to EZY's AOC. you can't go flying for anyone else.

Yep, Probably paid by block hour... I called that way back earlier in the thread. Of course the MPL's are going to be used and exploited for the company gain to the detriment of those willing sacrificial lambs. That's business.

[GeorgEGNT]

• £104,000 secured on a parents house (surely the case for a sizeable chunk of applicants?)
• No guarentee of employment at the end of it?
• 10 years to pay back £100k+ and interest?

Where do I sign?

If I actually did have £100k+ sat in my back pocket I still wouldnt touch this with a barge pole. Remind me why I want to be a part of this industry so much?

Best of luck to everyone applying anyway.

[student88]

Dear all,

If, like me, you're totally disinterested in this MPL scheme, please ignore this post.

However those of you who are interested in applying, please consider your fellow aviators before you apply - as by showing interest in this scheme, you'll be showing the likes of OAA, CTC and easyJet that wannabe pilots really are stupid enough to pay over the top prices for a professional qualification which is worth so much more to us in terms of decent working conditions, stable rosters, quality crew food and other associated benefits that (used to) come from working for an airline.

Save yourself the bother of circa £110,000 debt by going modular. No seriously, I'm not joking! You know that thing that Oxford and CTC probably told you wouldn't give you a hope in hells chance of getting an airline job? Well the truth is that they just tell you that so you come to them gagging for a position on one of their Top Gun-esque hero pilot courses. The truth is that you've probably got just as much of a chance of getting a pilot job as anyone else.

Why modular? Well there are lots of great reasons why to follow the likes of many captains who are flying for major airlines these days. (Yes, those guys who are taking you on holiday every year probably didn't go to OAA or CTC - they more than likely went modular).

Firstly you're going to save yourself tonnes of money by not paying for the FTOs big flashy sponsored conscription events like the one at Heathrow a few weeks ago. Oxford were giving out branded baseball caps and mugs with logos printed on - yep, thats your money being spent right there - not on your training, on their propaganda.

You'll be able to work whilst training. Who said you have to chuck all your training down on a massive slab of delicious debt? Why not try working for a while before you embark on what will be the most proving and testing few years of your life. Build up a great network of friends in the right places by going to work for an airline for a few years. Most of you are probably just about to finish A Levels. Why not enjoy life a little before haemorrhaging debt like an Icelandic bank?

Thirdly having to organise your own training and working schedule is going to show those future airlines that you're more than able to work to deadlines, to set yourself targets and to think outside the box when the poop hits the fan. I have many friends in the industry who are in influential positions within flight crew recruitment departments. The truth is, and not many people will tell you this, is that they're usually not too keen on those "model pilots" that CTC and OAA produce and that they've generally got more respect for the good guys who have made it on their own, through the highs, the lows and the chipped nails! They like the modular guys because they remind them of themselves when they were starting out - and thats going to work in your favour when the likes of Monarch, Jet 2, BMI regional/baby, BA City Flyer, Ryanair and easyJet inevitably get so desperate for pilots that they welcome invites from low hour lads and lasses.

I work for easyJet - and I talk to CTC/OAA pilots every day. They're up to their eyeballs in debt, some have £80-100K they have to find. For the first 8 months of flying they're being paid a flat £1,200 after tax (yes thats not enough to pay the monthly loan repayments). After that magical 8 months they're then on to a lovely £43 per scheduled block hour. Scheduled NOT actual. What was printed on the roster. If you get stuck in Malaga for 8 hours you're working for free my friend. When you're sitting fat, dumb and happy in the middle of winter with 22 hours on your roster you're only going to be paid £946 for that months work - and thats before tax.

All I'm asking of you is to think about what you're letting yourself in for. If you're not going to think about yourself then please think about us, your fellow aviators. Over the last 10 years airlines have taken advantage of us, they recognised that some of us were happy to settle up with £100K debt. They saw this and ran for miles, which is why we've ended up here with a MPL scheme thats going to cost you £110K all inclusive.

By the way, you're better off getting yourself a real licence for much cheaper. A little birdie told me you can get a CPL ME IR and MCC for half the price (shh it's a secret!).

If that hasn't discouraged you, then I can see what you're thinking. You're sitting there in the right hand seat of an A319 about to push back from Gatwick to head down to Faro. You've got your 2 silver stripes on your shoulders and your RayBans in close range. You're living a dream, and that's all it is. It's not a dream, it's dire, and it's only going to get worse and worse. The reason why? Things like this horrendous scheme brought to you by the bad guys.

They're only interested in your money, they don't care about you - at the end of the day you're just a number to them, if you pass your exams and get a good average you'll be a very good number to them, but that is all.

Don't be that person. Please.

[justagigolo77]

I work for easyJet - and I talk to CTC/OAA pilots every day

I dont think it could have been said any better than that mr. 88! Well done!

[Bealzebub]

If, like me, you're totally disinterested in this MPL scheme, please ignore this post.

If you are so disinterested in the scheme and have no experience of it, why write it and then suggest that only people who are interested should pay attention to your musings?

However those of you who are interested in applying, please consider your fellow aviators before you apply - as by showing interest in this scheme, you'll be showing the likes of OAA, CTC and easyJet that wannabe pilots really are stupid enough to pay over the top prices for a professional qualification which is worth so much more to us in terms of decent working conditions, stable rosters, quality crew food and other associated benefits that (used to) come from working for an airline.

The idea of the scheme is that it is more than just a "professional qualification." It is intended that the full time approved course of study should provide the necessary skill set for cadet airline entry with only around 200 hours. That is no simple or easy task. Far and away the majority of 250 hour (I did it my way) CPL/IR holders, would be significantly out of their depth assuming a jet aircraft first officers role at this level of experience, without the screening, training and tailored career plan that these schemes are geared to.

Quite what they have to do with "crew food" and "stable rosters," etc. I have no idea. That may be more of a general issue with your own employers terms and conditions that goes well beyond the subject of cadet employment? If you are suggesting that these cadet schemes are yet another attempt at reducing input costs, then yes they undoubtably are. However, if that was the driving force, then they would open their doors to all and sundry. They don't. Most other airlines don't either. There are reasons for that. The prime reason is that a CPL/IR and 250 odd hours, simply isn't enough requisite experience for this type of employment generally. If it was, they would all be at it.

Save yourself the bother of circa £110,000 debt by going modular. No seriously, I'm not joking! You know that thing that Oxford and CTC probably told you wouldn't give you a hope in hells chance of getting an airline job? Well the truth is that they just tell you that so you come to them gagging for a position on one of their Top Gun-esque hero pilot courses. The truth is that you've probably got just as much of a chance of getting a pilot job as anyone else.

Yes, but again this patently ignores the fact that these schemes are geared towards low hour cadet airline employment. You are rather torturing your own argument when you know that your own employer utilizes these schemes for cadet entry employment and doesn't employ pilots from the routes you suggest at these low hour levels. I don't mean to be unkind, but that is why you are having these conversations with low houred cadets from these schemes within your own company, whilst you yourself are not flying for them.

Why modular? Well there are lots of great reasons why to follow the likes of many captains who are flying for major airlines these days. (Yes, those guys who are taking you on holiday every year probably didn't go to OAA or CTC - they more than likely went modular).

Yes, but captains have generally been in the game for some considerable time. Things have evolved over the last decade or so. Most of those captains had acquired significant levels of experience in other jobs before they had amassed the experience that made them contenders for airline employment as a junior first officer. A few made rapid advances through what were then known as "approved schools" however these were in essence the same major training establishments offering similar (equivalent level) programmes, to those you see today. Outside of them, nobody was (or could) qualify with only 250 hours. Indeed, even at the 700 hour minimum level, very few people qualified for airline employment as a pilot.

Thirdly having to organise your own training and working schedule is going to show those future airlines that you're more than able to work to deadlines, to set yourself targets and to think outside the box when the poop hits the fan. I have many friends in the industry who are in influential positions within flight crew recruitment departments. The truth is, and not many people will tell you this, is that they're usually not too keen on those "model pilots" that CTC and OAA produce and that they've generally got more respect for the good guys who have made it on their own, through the highs, the lows and the chipped nails! They like the modular guys because they remind them of themselves when they were starting out - and thats going to work in your favour when the likes of Monarch, Jet 2, BMI regional/baby, BA City Flyer, Ryanair and easyJet inevitably get so desperate for pilots that they welcome invites from low hour lads and lasses.

Quite where you have got this idea from, I am not too sure. Obviously it fits your own model, but I am afraid it just isn't true. There are thousands and thousands of low houred CPL/IR holders out there looking to advance their own careers. The only low houred cadets that your airline and most others are recruiting to any degree are the ones that those affiliated training schools produce. I have already stated the reason why. This "desperation" for pilots, of which you speak, is a fallacy. It is wishful thinking. In over the last three decades, I have never seen it. The whole training industry (including these MPL schemes) are being developed to provide an easy solution to any future increase in demand. If you don't believe that, stop ignoring what has happened and what is happening. Open your eyes and look at the investment that is taking place in these schemes. In fact don't even bother getting out of your chair, just look at what your own employer is doing with regards to the future employment of cadet pilots.

As the market picks up you will undoubtably see an expansion in these schemes as airlines utilize them to provide the cost savings, quality training, and flexibility that are now demanding, and will increasingly continue to demand.

I work for easyJet - and I talk to CTC/OAA pilots every day. They're up to their eyeballs in debt, some have £80-100K they have to find. For the first 8 months of flying they're being paid a flat £1,200 after tax (yes thats not enough to pay the monthly loan repayments). After that magical 8 months they're then on to a lovely £43 per scheduled block hour. Scheduled NOT actual. What was printed on the roster. If you get stuck in Malaga for 8 hours you're working for free my friend. When you're sitting fat, dumb and happy in the middle of winter with 22 hours on your roster you're only going to be paid £946 for that months work - and thats before tax.

Yes, but again they are working as pilots, you aren't! I have flown with cadets from these programmes for the last 15 years. They are on significantly better terms and conditions. Obviously, in recent years there has been a dearth of employment opportunities. Those companies with opportunities (such as yours) have been able to take advantage of the laws of supply and demand to their advantage. Times are tough. I am sure there are many cadets struggling to manage on the low remunaration rates your company offers. However they are flying Airbuses. They are building real experience. They are staying current. They are renewing their qualifications and ratings. Slowly (or possibly quickly) they are amassing the levels of jet experience that will take them to the next rung on the career ladder. That isn't happening while you do other (non-flying) jobs congratulating yourself on the money you have saved?

All I'm asking of you is to think about what you're letting yourself in for. If you're not going to think about yourself then please think about us, your fellow aviators. Over the last 10 years airlines have taken advantage of us, they recognised that some of us were happy to settle up with £100K debt. They saw this and ran for miles, which is why we've ended up here with a MPL scheme thats going to cost you £110K all inclusive.

Yes, anybody should think long and hard about what they are letting themselves in for. People need to research carefully and take a realistic standpoint. Unfortunetaly few do, or at least few seem to, if these forums are any sort of barometer. Far too many people indulge in wishful thinking, rather than looking at the reality of the market. Making the pieces fit by forcing them into the jigsaw, simply won't provide a satisfactory, relevant, or attractive picture.

By the way, you're better off getting yourself a real licence for much cheaper. A little birdie told me you can get a CPL ME IR and MCC for half the price (shh it's a secret!).

Yes, and then what are you going to do with it? You can save money. If you don't want fast track airline employment, then that might well be the way to go. If you are looking at a long term career plan, rather than a short term one, then that might be the way to go. If you want to do another job while you wait to advance your career plan, that might be the way to go. This is a pyramid. The fast track airline jobs (cadets) are hard to come by. If you intend trying out for one of them, brace yourself for the reality. If you want to join the ranks of thousands of others (and probably save money) the choices are much much wider.

If that hasn't discouraged you, then I can see what you're thinking. You're sitting there in the right hand seat of an A319 about to push back from Gatwick to head down to Faro. You've got your 2 silver stripes on your shoulders and your RayBans in close range. You're living a dream, and that's all it is. It's not a dream, it's dire, and it's only going to get worse and worse. The reason why? Things like this horrendous scheme brought to you by the bad guys.

The bad guys being your own employer presumably? Things are certainly bad at the moment. Your own employer has been one one of the few airlines to take on any sizeable number of cadets in recent years. Terms and conditions haven't simply gone through the floor for these cadets, they have done so for all pilots, and indeed all employees at all levels.

They're only interested in your money, they don't care about you - at the end of the day you're just a number to them, if you pass your exams and get a good average you'll be a very good number to them, but that is all.

That is business I am afraid. I don't suppose the electicity or gas company for whom I am a customer, really regard me as much else either, (although their literature might suggest otherwise.) The better ones want to develop a good reputation for customer service and placement because it is in their interests to do so, however they can't change the realities of the marketplace.

Don't be that person. Please.

Why? Because you aren't? Because you consider it hinders your own prospects? Nobody should ever underestimate the difficulty, cost, and risk of embarking on this career. That is only amplified in an economic downturn, but it is and always has been the reality.

Money is a tool. If you have that tool it often ables you to do things and make choices that aren't necessarily available to others. For those without the tool, it may be necessary to borrow. Likewise it may be necessary to improvise or utilise a slower method of construction. More often than not, the posession of that tool is what will dictate the subsequent course of action. Because you don't have it, or elect not to use it, doesn't mean that somebody else shouldn't.

As I have said many times before, you need to understand what it is you want from the choices you make.

[justagigolo77]

Bealzebub....what a load of ST you spew! Who are you trying to convince, you or us? Obviously you or someone close to you has fallen for these scams and are trying to justify it.

[Bealzebub]

Bealzebub....what a load of ST you spew! Who are you trying to convince, you or us? Obviously you or someone close to you has fallen for these scams and are trying to justify it.

I am afraid your customary bad temper is misdirected. I am telling you the way it is, and why it is, the way it is. It bothers me little whether you like it or not, or if you want to put your fingers in your ears and run around in circles.

I have flown wth a lot of people from these training schemes almost from their inception. I have seen cadet first officers from these "scams" as you call them, go on to become captains, training captains, and company managers. I can vouch for the quality of the cadets, and can absolutely understand why low hour cadet recruitment is from these sources.

You don't like the fact that it is increasingly becoming the norm for airline cadet recruitment? Well that is a crying shame, but it doesn't change the reality.

It doesn't bother me what you or anybody else decide to do. I am speaking from an advantageous viewpoint. Ignore it with pleasure. I don't mind. However it is the advice I give my own children, it is based on significant experience, and it is accurate and honest.

I am not sure who the "us" you refer to is? Convince you? I couldn't care less. The intention is to provide a qualified and balanced viewpoint without any personal advantage or any axe to grind. Hopefully a position you find yourself in one day.

[FANS]

Bealzebub - can you please clarify if you have any connection to the integrated schools?