How should i spend my money?
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laakdown - lack of class, no!!!
This topic has been discussed to death, but of course would require a little effort to use the Search button. Easier just to pay isn't it?
P2F - is probably the most hated topic on these forums, but there is always some numpty who believe they have found the pot of gold!
Why would anyone who make money on pilots paying to fly for them, suddenly change their way and offer you this position/job? That does not sound like good business, does it?
Or do you think they will give you a job because they like you, and you are a good guy!
Someone who considers this as one of his first options, lacks class!
This topic has been discussed to death, but of course would require a little effort to use the Search button. Easier just to pay isn't it?
P2F - is probably the most hated topic on these forums, but there is always some numpty who believe they have found the pot of gold!
Why would anyone who make money on pilots paying to fly for them, suddenly change their way and offer you this position/job? That does not sound like good business, does it?
Or do you think they will give you a job because they like you, and you are a good guy!
Someone who considers this as one of his first options, lacks class!
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laakdown - as I said in my previous post, I really do wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide. But as a bloke with a PPL and now doing ATPL's you must realise that P2F or anything of the sort is a very touchy subject. It's a cancer that needs cutting out of our industry. I absolutely understand why you're looking into it...but please leave it at that.
MagicTiger - When it comes to P2F etc I'm on your side....but lets not turn it into a spat.
Evening All
MagicTiger - When it comes to P2F etc I'm on your side....but lets not turn it into a spat.
Evening All
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Stop patronising me magictiger you sound like a 
. If you had actually taken the trouble to read the whole thread you would have seen that i was in no way advocating P2F as my first choice or anything of the kind.
I was actually asking whether it would be better to spend my money on a school with contacts, a flight instructor rating, buying a small plane or a type rating.
It was somebody else who suggest i do P2F if i want to get into the industry and all i did was ask about it and you jump on me as if im michael effin o leary
. If you had actually taken the trouble to read the whole thread you would have seen that i was in no way advocating P2F as my first choice or anything of the kind.I was actually asking whether it would be better to spend my money on a school with contacts, a flight instructor rating, buying a small plane or a type rating.
It was somebody else who suggest i do P2F if i want to get into the industry and all i did was ask about it and you jump on me as if im michael effin o leary
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Well next time use the search function a little first, and you will find most of the answers to your questions. This topic has been discussed to death in the past.
Not patronising you, just telling you to get a bit more knowledge so at least you know what you are speaking about.
You was the one who started comparing P2F with BA's cadet scheme, or FlyBe bonding you on low salary, etc. +++
You wanted to play devils advocate, as you wrote in another post, well here is your answer from most of the users on PPRUNE, P2F is the devil of flying, and can end up making FO's position becoming a training position instead of a paid job in the end, is that what you want?
Don't hide about trying to make a "debate", think before you make an opinion, and before you ask a question.
Furthermore you compared it with doctor students, again lack of knowledge, as my sister is studying to become a doctor, and she has 10 months practical job, as part of her study, and is paid £20.000 for that period.
So again you are talking without knowing even what your own point is.
Believe me after you have spent £40.000 if modular, or £80.000 if intergrated
, you will will only need to spend another £35.000 - £40.000 to get a TR and play pilot for 300 - 500 hours!
Sounds like a pretty bad investment if you ask me, and after 500 hours you will be dumped with TR to maintain every 12 months, because another one bites the dust. See the logic in how this works. They are not giving you a job with the Eagle jet line training.
Why do you want to do the lazy route? Build yourself up with air taxi, instructing etc., and when you have sufficient experience you will get a better job, and after more experience an even better job!
I have heard stories from some P2F captains, who tell their FO's, sit still and dont touch anything, sounds like fun, some of the countries who do this, don't have a very rich CRM culture as we would like to believe!
P2F, prepare to kill the FO's job long term! Maybe O'leary is right, Captain and an FO's out of job in the future, maybe they will give you job as cabin crew and trainee pilot, and only if your buzzer goes of and the captain is dead will you get the chance to fly the aircraft, in the mean time serve coffee!
Not patronising you, just telling you to get a bit more knowledge so at least you know what you are speaking about.
You was the one who started comparing P2F with BA's cadet scheme, or FlyBe bonding you on low salary, etc. +++
You wanted to play devils advocate, as you wrote in another post, well here is your answer from most of the users on PPRUNE, P2F is the devil of flying, and can end up making FO's position becoming a training position instead of a paid job in the end, is that what you want?
Don't hide about trying to make a "debate", think before you make an opinion, and before you ask a question.
Furthermore you compared it with doctor students, again lack of knowledge, as my sister is studying to become a doctor, and she has 10 months practical job, as part of her study, and is paid £20.000 for that period.
So again you are talking without knowing even what your own point is.
Believe me after you have spent £40.000 if modular, or £80.000 if intergrated
, you will will only need to spend another £35.000 - £40.000 to get a TR and play pilot for 300 - 500 hours!Sounds like a pretty bad investment if you ask me, and after 500 hours you will be dumped with TR to maintain every 12 months, because another one bites the dust. See the logic in how this works. They are not giving you a job with the Eagle jet line training.
Why do you want to do the lazy route? Build yourself up with air taxi, instructing etc., and when you have sufficient experience you will get a better job, and after more experience an even better job!
I have heard stories from some P2F captains, who tell their FO's, sit still and dont touch anything, sounds like fun, some of the countries who do this, don't have a very rich CRM culture as we would like to believe!
P2F, prepare to kill the FO's job long term! Maybe O'leary is right, Captain and an FO's out of job in the future, maybe they will give you job as cabin crew and trainee pilot, and only if your buzzer goes of and the captain is dead will you get the chance to fly the aircraft, in the mean time serve coffee!
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Please dont reply magic tiger
MagicTiger... ICAO English level what? Is it possible that your english teacher 'paid2teach'?!
Why don't you let sane people answer the original question for the poster?
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MagicTiger
If you're an un-employed pilot then look at your posts and ask yourself again why are you un-employed. To the rest of us it's obvious.
If by some quirk of the space time continuum and you are employed then you're the kind of....what did laakdown call you....oh yeah that the rest of us hate flying with.
Loose the attitude as we all prostitute ourselves in some form or another unless you've been sponsored by an airline......and even then you're usually on a reduced salary for a few years to "pay for your training costs". I paid for my Frozen ATPL. Was i wrong for doing that, is it P2F?
Laakdown's comment about BA et al was spot on you just failed to see or understand it through the red mist.
Now i know you don't care what i say and may even try to treat me in the same way as Laakdown.......don't bother as im way ahead of you.
Ps Laakdown. Spend your money any way you want. It's your money. Some will support and some will criticise and it doesn't matter what myself or others say. You have to do what you think is right to get you the job.
I did an intergrated course, instructed then got a TP job then a jet job and have been lucky enough to NOT have to pay for a TR. It took seven years to get the TP job from getting my blue book and on more than one occasion considered the so called P2F.
The market is getting better but it's still tough and i wish all of you good luck....except magic tiger without a change of attitude. It's worth it when you get there and safe flying even you MT and may you all make the right decisions on getting there.
If you're an un-employed pilot then look at your posts and ask yourself again why are you un-employed. To the rest of us it's obvious.
If by some quirk of the space time continuum and you are employed then you're the kind of....what did laakdown call you....oh yeah
that the rest of us hate flying with.Loose the attitude as we all prostitute ourselves in some form or another unless you've been sponsored by an airline......and even then you're usually on a reduced salary for a few years to "pay for your training costs". I paid for my Frozen ATPL. Was i wrong for doing that, is it P2F?
Laakdown's comment about BA et al was spot on you just failed to see or understand it through the red mist.
Now i know you don't care what i say and may even try to treat me in the same way as Laakdown.......don't bother as im way ahead of you.
Ps Laakdown. Spend your money any way you want. It's your money. Some will support and some will criticise and it doesn't matter what myself or others say. You have to do what you think is right to get you the job.
I did an intergrated course, instructed then got a TP job then a jet job and have been lucky enough to NOT have to pay for a TR. It took seven years to get the TP job from getting my blue book and on more than one occasion considered the so called P2F.
The market is getting better but it's still tough and i wish all of you good luck....except magic tiger without a change of attitude. It's worth it when you get there and safe flying even you MT and may you all make the right decisions on getting there.
Last edited by gone till november; 17th Sep 2010 at 16:39.
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What do I care how someone want to waist their money!
I didn't know now everybody had become pro P2F! Why not, let's spend £35.000 to fly as an FO, sounds like a great idea. Who needs to get paid for what they do! It is all just fun and games, sorry I didn't know that!
I didn't know now everybody had become pro P2F! Why not, let's spend £35.000 to fly as an FO, sounds like a great idea. Who needs to get paid for what they do! It is all just fun and games, sorry I didn't know that!
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First misread the BA part, however that was never going to be majority of pilots recruitment way in the past, as there was huge competition to get in, similar as the air force.
Paying to get your rating seems to be the way forward anyway, unfortunate but true. Paying to fly, is not, look and search some of the threads of the people who have done it, and see what they experience was.
Anyway you are going to need a lot more than £60.000 if that is the way you want to go, you hour building, CPL, ME, MEIR + MCC will at least cost you close to £40.000 - £50.000 if you do it modular, forget integrated, that will be more.
I am not saying never to consider it if the situation permits, however you should try other ways first, if you do not succeed the self improvement way, get a type rating and try to get yourself a job in middle east or far east, I have heard this has worked for some, without paying for line training.
Of course depends on age etc., but you wanted advice, what you do if you blow £80.000 on training + line training, 500 hours will give you something, but probably not enough in todays market to even get a sniff of a job that will justify that kind of investment.
Line training is not just the TR + 300/500 hours you pay, the company does not pay anything for your expenses, you pay your own hotel, your own expenses while you are their slave, for however long they need you. I have heard pilots on these schemes not even being able to complete the 500 hours in 12 months, they can stretch it out as long as they need you, because you have paid them, and will you walk away from the investment you have made for line training.
I am not a massive fan of Ryan Air, but they do give newbies a chance, so even though you need to pay for your TR, you will most likely have a job for as many years as you need or want.
You have not received many responses from many experienced PPRUNES, because this topic has been discussed to death.
I do wish you and everyone else the best of luck in their pursuit of a flying career, regardless of how you do it. Someone mention here that P2F is an accident waiting to happen, can't really agree in that, they have to be highly motivated to risk that much money with no security of any return. And other low hour pilots have all been flying in the past and present for companies as BA, Lufthansa and Ryan Air, so it is not an unusual system to have love houred FO's, however paying for it is the taboo, and when things does change and pick up, you might be stuck in a P2F contract in Indonesia or Marocco, unable to get of this "contract" while others get hired.
It is a lottery!
Paying to get your rating seems to be the way forward anyway, unfortunate but true. Paying to fly, is not, look and search some of the threads of the people who have done it, and see what they experience was.
Anyway you are going to need a lot more than £60.000 if that is the way you want to go, you hour building, CPL, ME, MEIR + MCC will at least cost you close to £40.000 - £50.000 if you do it modular, forget integrated, that will be more.
I am not saying never to consider it if the situation permits, however you should try other ways first, if you do not succeed the self improvement way, get a type rating and try to get yourself a job in middle east or far east, I have heard this has worked for some, without paying for line training.
Of course depends on age etc., but you wanted advice, what you do if you blow £80.000 on training + line training, 500 hours will give you something, but probably not enough in todays market to even get a sniff of a job that will justify that kind of investment.
Line training is not just the TR + 300/500 hours you pay, the company does not pay anything for your expenses, you pay your own hotel, your own expenses while you are their slave, for however long they need you. I have heard pilots on these schemes not even being able to complete the 500 hours in 12 months, they can stretch it out as long as they need you, because you have paid them, and will you walk away from the investment you have made for line training.
I am not a massive fan of Ryan Air, but they do give newbies a chance, so even though you need to pay for your TR, you will most likely have a job for as many years as you need or want.
You have not received many responses from many experienced PPRUNES, because this topic has been discussed to death.
I do wish you and everyone else the best of luck in their pursuit of a flying career, regardless of how you do it. Someone mention here that P2F is an accident waiting to happen, can't really agree in that, they have to be highly motivated to risk that much money with no security of any return. And other low hour pilots have all been flying in the past and present for companies as BA, Lufthansa and Ryan Air, so it is not an unusual system to have love houred FO's, however paying for it is the taboo, and when things does change and pick up, you might be stuck in a P2F contract in Indonesia or Marocco, unable to get of this "contract" while others get hired.
It is a lottery!
