Calling all experienced pilots...we need help!!

[Kash360]

Evening,

I came on here and opened this thread to highlight and seek advice from our senior pilots. I had promised myself and to a certain degree our dearly appreciated moderator HWB, that this thread was not going to be about me but people like me. However I feel that I am crossing a fine line and by doing so breaking my own promise, by always reflecting on my personal circumstances and situation. And for this I would like to apologise for doing so. This thread is for the benefit of all wannabes.


I today received a PM from what I would like to describe as an influential peer from Ryanair, I must admit that after careful consideration and reviewing the PM. I must apologise to any person I have mislead or informed in my previous post regarding the airline. I was wrong on many points including the point regarding the type rating of a 737-800; in fact I have been informed that if you do hold an 800 type rating this will allow you to fly the entire range of 737. I am neither pro nor against Ryanair but feel that I may have been mislead and misinformed by the information that was provided to me. It was my own fault for not taking the appropriate steps to research in this area. And by doing so this does not give me any rights to make comments that may be untrue. DONT WORRY I HAVE NOT BEEN OFFERED A JOB AT RYANAIR, and neither have I been pressurised to make such apologies. I just don’t wish to be branded a liar by my fellow peers.


Moving on I would also like to thank many of you for your private messages offering support, encouragement and advice. As a wannabe I was not born and am sure neither was any of us knowing all that we needed regarding our industry. Neither do we pretend to, but what we do need to learn is not written in books that explain the theory of flight nor how to operate the aircraft. Of course we need to read and practise but I want to learn what isn’t in the books, things people have experienced, encountered things that have been just a memory or a past thought, so all of us may learn from it.


We have all applied, chased up CV’s, networked etc. What we haven’t done is to open ourselves to new ideas such as using our expertise in helping others. On my way to the post office I popped into my local community centre and enquired and presented the idea of starting a homework group on Saturday’s to my surprise there isn’t one set up. So I have volunteered to help set up and teach under privileged children while I find work. As always I have been applying everywhere in every industry. But as I’m sitting doing nothing then why not help my community.


Kash360.

[psmd0311]

"I never accepted crap conditions although I have signed a contract far inferior to what a lot of the senior guys in the airline I work for are on"


Sloppy

You need to educate me here, all of the companies I have worked at have a contract. The contract sets the work rules, training and pay for everyone. So if you are new and join the airline the company cant just lay a new contract out unless it is agreed on by the entire pilot workforce and then everyone follows the new contract. How are companies having different work rules, for different pilots based on date of hire? I know this has happened at Cathay, but that is china and I dont think unions are legal there, I might be wrong? HK might have different rules as well? Does this sort of thing happen in the UK? This isnt an attack on anyone, just trying to understand how is works.

If pilots are allowing management to to do this they are being short sighted and are part of the blame. But wannabes have got to stop paying for their training beyond FATPL. Its simple supply and demand, there are not enough willing to stick together and limit the supply when the industry does get better.

[g109]

hi

Maybe if you'd made contacts, instead of heading off to Africa??? you might find things different. I realised very early on that in aviation, contacts and knowing people in the right places can get you a long way.
No-one is going to knock on your door and say 'Here's a £50k/yr job in the LHS of my 777'

Don't complain when you get nowhere. Look at what you can do correctly, rather than dwelling on the fact all is doom and gloom.

PS, I saw a sign in McDonalds looking for staff!...


absolutely correct, contacts is everything, I managed to get a job on a 320 with 200h from flight school, never paid for any ratings, now flying a wide body for a large UK company. If your age is 27, I am only 3 years older than you..
and be flexible, that could also mean moving to another country and learning another language..

because thats exactly what I did....

[g109]

hi

Hi,

another comment, get off your arse, there are jobs around, even for low hour pilots like yourself without the need to pay for any type rating.
learn german, or at least show some willingness to learn the languge.
I know quiet a few english guys flying for airlines over in germany.
condor looking for pilots on B757, A320
Lufthansa city line recruiting on CRJ,
type rating is funded by the airline.

https://www.interpersonal.de/site/mm_jobseeker/

similar opportunities also available in SE asia, ie AirAsia, ect...

do your homework and you ll be fine.

so long

[SloppyJoe]

Not sure on rules outside hong kong but would be amazed if the reduced conditions and contracts on offer at the moment in the UK have been signed by everyone working already. Again not sure though as don't work in Europe.

[farfadet]

similar opportunities also available in SE asia, ie AirAsia, ect...

Hi G109! As far as I know, Air Asia hires national FOs only. No way if you are expat.
But correct me if I'm wrong, I would be more than happy to see that it's untrue.

[farfadet]

Another point: you seem to think that the job hunt is like a piece of cake... it isn't believe me! May be you had been lucky in the past, but what if you had to look for a job now... It might be really different.

The competition is very harsh! Starting to learn a new language in order to be lucky enough to be invited for a selection could be a waste of time. For instance, in Germany, don't you think that there are already so many german native speakers looking for a job in a German company?
As low hour pilots, we have to do be prepared for an interview. That means that we have to stay current: flying on a regular basis, revising ground school, maintaining IR skills, sending CVs, calling companies, trying to make good contacts...
I really think that starting to learn a new language might be useless. At least you could be invited for an interview, but what would happen then...?

Believe me, I'm working on trying to get a job every single day! It's not as easy as you seem to think.. It is exhausting. Meanwhile, we must also earn money, whatever the job is.
And I know a bunch of mates who are doing exactly the same. We are in the same boat, struggling to find something and even to fly on a regular basis.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing I've been able to do to so far to take that first step on the aviation career ladder is:
- getting an Instructor Rating and getting a job as an instructor thanks to good contacts. At least, it gives me the chance to build my hours in a very useful manner.
- make good and useful contacts who could help me to find a job latter when the market will be better for us (wanabees)... hopefully...

[sam8808]

similar opportunities also available in SE asia, ie AirAsia, ect...

Hi G109! As far as I know, Air Asia hires national FOs only. No way if you are expat.
But correct me if I'm wrong, I would be more than happy to see that it's untrue.

More to the point, they're also not hiring inexperienced guys (as far as I'm aware).

[Kash360]

Hey,

I would like to say that I have a flying job; I would like to say that I have a beautiful wife and a house to go with it, but the truth is there is a thin line between heaven and here, and I for one am here!!

Weeks have gone by checking my emails on my phone every five minutes. Praying that an email comes through, other than ones trying to get me to buy Viagra pills. However I am now working at a car wash place which keeps me occupied for most of the day. You know what the best part of my day is now? Meeting other people other than seeing the disappointed faces of my family all day long. Working at a car wash or scraping chewing gum of toilet doors doesn’t matter one little bit to me. I don’t care about pride, reputation or what people think I’m not ashamed. What I do care about is standing back onto my own two feet knowing that I’m not the useless s**t my job centre think I am. I will never in my life go back to the job centre and sign on; I will work until I have lost all feelings in my fingers.


My degree in engineering is now nothing more than another piece of paper within my draw along with my licence reminding me of my misfortunes. I still have hope and still apply every day but by God it takes it out of you, chipping away at your hope and strength day by day.


Not long ago I was offered a flying position, I even was sent a contract but as yet nothing has come of it, i try calling, emailing and texting nearly every day but never get through to anyone. It hurts not having a pilot job but it hurts even more when you have been offered one but nothing comes of it.


At the homework club that I started a few weeks back, I met a student that was questioning me about what I do as in occupation. I was ashamed to tell him that i was a pilot who also has an aeronautical engineering degree and years of experience in airline operations. I had to respond to the student with a simple answer of “ all”.


I have been pondering the idea of returning to Africa in about 3-4 weeks time, but this time to the North of Africa. I would be covering more ground for a longer period of time if I do go. However was wondering if anyone knew what the minimum entry jobs in countries such Algeria, Libya, Chad and Niger required or even if my JAA licence meant anything there? If you could help with these questions I would be very grateful.

Many thanks in advance.

Kash360.

[PosClimb]

You have an engineering degree, pilot training worth a lot of $$$, and you work at a car wash.

Look on the bright side... it can only be up from here... you can't go any lower unless you decide to knock off a 7-11...

[no sponsor]

I've seen too many guys piss their lives away waiting for an elusive job in the flight deck by working in jobs which they think will somehow get them into the flight deck. Typically, these are guys with ATPLs working in ops, flight safety or dispatchers. Not one of them has ever been offered a job in my airline, and certainly not now given the lack of recruitment. The only chance you have of a job today is either through Ryanair, or via CTC onto a short-term contract. Flying in Africa would be a great experience, but you need to do more research before just jumping onto an aircraft to the Congo in search of a job.

Personally, I would get started on another career. Don't waste your life chasing a flight deck job.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Kash360: Many of the Africa flying jobs, especially the ones with the UN, are contracted through a handful of South African operators: NAC, Balmoral, Naturelink, Solenta and a few others. Going to where these companies are performing their contracts will not prove fruitful. You need to talk to them at their HQ in South Africa. The problem is that these companies prefer to hire S. Africans with S. African licenses. Also, most of these companies are not hiring.

The truth is that the way the industry hires and trains its pilots has changed completely in the last 2 to 3 years. It's all about pay to play now. The truth is that unless you have a family member or extremely good connection, then it will be difficult to get a job. The other option is to get a Type Rating and pay for 300 hours line training and then apply somewhere. I know man, this is messed up, but this is the cold reality that is called an "aviation career."

Go do an internship at Boeing or Airbus with your degree and make a load of money and buy a damn plane! A huge part of breaking into this industry has nothing to do with skill....it is simply luck and a huge supply of money.

You think the global recession is treating the industry porly now? Just wait until Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal default on their loans and the Euro collapses. That will make this recession look like a picnic.

Damn it. Get the hell out of the carwash and seriously look at putting your damn engineering degree to work! You can fly....it does not have to be a career. Work hard in aeronautical engineering - make money - buy a plane - hell...you can even buy a pilot shirt and hat if you want. Forget about the pilot career...for the time being. It kills me to see you neglecting your engineering background!

[Grass strip basher]

Unless you got a 1st or 2:1 from a very good university I don't imagine it is exactly "easy" to get a job in an aeronautical engineering related field at the moment..... believe it or not it is not just the pilot recruitment market that is in recession.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Echo the point about not working *near* the flightdeck if your aim is to sit in it.

It seems logical that being a dispatcher or cabin crew or Operations officer or cabin crew might help you make the leap into the flightdeck with your CPL.

Rubbish.

What really happens is that your manager knows you're less likely to leave and less likely to rock the boat than your colleague because you have your eyes on a higher prize. You end up working harder and being more highly prized IN YOUR PRESENT ROLE and thus worse off than were you just some random Joe applying for a flightdeck job.

In then years of working in a rapidly expanding airline I know of only 4 cabin crew who have made it into the flightdeck and only one of them was an internal appointment.

Go get the best paid job you can. Use the money to stay current or to save for a SSTR. If that means selling insurance over the phone then go do that. Stay well clear of airports.

WWW

[Right Way Up]

There seems to be a perception today that people are owed a job because of the effort they have put in. Many times in the 70/80/90s we have had crisis that meant newly trained pilots had to sit on the sidelines for many years waiting their opportunity. In fact it was arguably worse because of the large number of military pilots joining the market. In the early 90s there were far more trained & experienced pilots on the market then there are now, and many of us had to be creative & patient. Nowadays experienced pilots are in a worse position than TYROs as there are many who are willing to sell their soul. I find it unbelievable that those people now who are struggling to get a job and want to short circuit the system (which is an indictment of buy today, and worry about paying for it tomorrow), now expect those people who have done their penance and were patient to risk their hard won job. (whilst their T & Cs are being attacked because of the new source of cheap labour.)

To answer the OPs question, my advice would be to get into an airline job that puts you close to the action & where you can make good contacts. (especially those turboprop airlines which in the past have taken on their own guys into the RHS.) Good Luck!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The game has changed. The old rules have been torn up. The world is different now.

Few current airline pilots yet perceive this and pass it on but it is true.


The old world valued a few years spent in Ops or in the Cabin. Building experience as an instructor or as a piston charter guy. Passing exams first time. Training at a reputable school. Having a solid CV packed with good school exam grades and commendable extra-curricular commendables.

The new world values your ability to pay tens of thousands in type rating fees and the willingness to sign employment contracts offering zero-hours and no security of tenure.

Thats all it values.

The RHS is a profit centre for some airlines. Ryanair started it. Others have followed. Eventually all will do so. Commercial reality dictates it to be so.

The well armed Wannabe in the new world therefore needs but three weapons. Cash enought to pay for CPL IR MCC ATPL + SSTR. An ability to move anywhere in Europe and not set down particularly strong roots there. A willingness to work like hell during the summer and work at something else during the lean winter.

If you can meet those conditions, and some can, then the water is lovely.

If you can't then run away from these freezing cold arctic seas.


WWW

[mad_jock]

Just to add if you any good in Ops it will be a cold day in hell before the ops director will release you from there.

In some ways training up an ops staff member is a bigger pain in the arse although cheaper than a pilot. If they then have the right "head" on them that means they are good at it, as a resource you are far better in the company as a Ops controller than pilot. They have suitable candidates coming out of there ears for the RHS. A good ops controller that can keep there cool and still have attention to detail and spot that a cunning plan is going to cause even more issues in 1/2/5days/2weeks time, worth thier weight in gold.

[Kash360]

The truth is and it has been echoed many times before that the industry is on it’s knees, and Europe for sure will be the last to bounce back from all this mess. Everything I have done in my life apart from two jobs has been within aviation. I was hoping that when it comes down to the crunch people may see that he has dedicated his life to this industry. In 1999 I took my first paid job as a baggage handler, in 2000 I became a passenger services agent, in 2001 I became passenger services supervisor, and 2001 also went into dispatch and in 2003 went to airline operations. What I’m trying to get at is that my CV on paper is 100% aviation and thought that it would help. I’m not complaining because I enjoyed every minute of it. The reason I left briefly left the aviation world was to utilise my degree, and making a quick bob or two.



Some of you say don’t go back to Africa, some say don’t go into non flying aviation and some say go back to engineering. You are my seniors and seniors to many of us, we appreciate your advice whatever it maybe. But I wash cars for a living; I scrub, polish, dry and vacuum cars. I can’t get a job in engineering, I have tried everywhere. Someone said that unless you have a 1st or a 2:1 from a good university it doesn’t mean anything. Well I got a 2:1 from UMIST which before it joined the Manchester University to become the University of Manchester was ranked 3rd in the country.



I don’t want a job in the RHS of a shinny jet, because I don’t deserve it just because I have a blue book. I saved every penny not because I want to fly a 747,320 but just because I enjoy flying if that means flying a single engine piston then so be it. Some of you and I am forever greatful have provided me with some leads, which have unfortunately come to nothing but I am forever great for your help and support.



I have been trying to do some research about going back to Africa but this time to the North. However my homework seems to be harder than I thought. I just want to say that I for one am here to stay and am in for the long haul. It may not be this year it may not be the next but one day I will get a flying job, and once I get there and find out that I hate it. Then at least I know I climbed the mountain and will then find something else in life to do.

Kash360.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Then at least I know I climbed the mountain and will then find something else in life to do.

Well, I guess the CTC cadet program's motto is: why climb the mountain, when you can buy a ticket and take the tram straight to the top?

[johns7022]

A real man has to acknowledge that life holds no promises, only death at the end...

So while life is short, and god is on vacation, the man of action goes out and takes what his his...a life full of adventure and a ship full of bounty..

As long as somewhere in the world there is a millionare with a jet....my name will be on the paycheck, and his daughter will warm my bed....

I am a Citation pilot, and that's how we roll.