Pay To Fly threads (Merged)
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Hmmm, good luck. It would be a dream come true if these schemes were to cease and we could get back to something approaching respectability both in terms of the image of the profession and our pay and conditions. However, as you said you are after facts then i should point out that Ryanair dont run a pay to fly scheme. I dont think Easy do either, its just the pay is utter ****e!
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Good luck beachbud,
These schemes are an abhorrance and my fear is it will take an accident before something is done about them. With all the unemployed pilots around due to the demise of XL, Zoom, Globespan etc there is no reason for these scams to exist. Anyone who does know the terms and conditions of this disgusting exploitation should furnish you with what you need
These schemes are an abhorrance and my fear is it will take an accident before something is done about them. With all the unemployed pilots around due to the demise of XL, Zoom, Globespan etc there is no reason for these scams to exist. Anyone who does know the terms and conditions of this disgusting exploitation should furnish you with what you need
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Yes we all agree it is not right, however they are no better or worse than any other low houred pilot being trained by airlines in the past with low hours, only difference is that the airlines used to pay training, TR and bond them.
The only difference from paying and not paying, is that when paying you have a chance to jump the que of people/pilots who can not afford to pay for TR or line training.
(It is wrong, I agree, but their skill level is as good as anyone else - so that is not a valid argument unfortunately) When selected, trained and operative, they are as good as a pilot who would have been sponsored by the airline themselves!
The only difference from paying and not paying, is that when paying you have a chance to jump the que of people/pilots who can not afford to pay for TR or line training.
(It is wrong, I agree, but their skill level is as good as anyone else - so that is not a valid argument unfortunately) When selected, trained and operative, they are as good as a pilot who would have been sponsored by the airline themselves!
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"flyprototype" If you can afford the Pay to Fly, I doubt you have a major problem with money, it's more likely only those with more money then sense can afford such "programs" - so I doubt they will actually cause any accidents due to this. This is more wishfull thinking by those "wannabes" who can not afford such schemes.
Nothing apparantly indicates that "these" pilots are less able, more tired than others.
I could do such program if I wanted eventually, and I would not be tired because of lack of money, personally I wouldn't do it because I think it is an own goal, even though I admit I was tempted in the past.
But given a chance with secure job, would I pay for a TR to get myself an advantage, sure I would. Number one first!
Nothing apparantly indicates that "these" pilots are less able, more tired than others.
I could do such program if I wanted eventually, and I would not be tired because of lack of money, personally I wouldn't do it because I think it is an own goal, even though I admit I was tempted in the past.
But given a chance with secure job, would I pay for a TR to get myself an advantage, sure I would. Number one first!
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Eaglejet facilitate paying for hours and a TR if you need it. They are unashamedly a commercial company and take a cut as the middle man.
Another element to this is flight schools selling these schemes to their current student body or using it as a marketing tool to those new to the industry who are blinkered to the glamorous lifestyle we all lead ......
The link takes you to my post on thread concerning OAA and their role in this sorry mess.
Link to an earlier post on OAA P2F Thread
However I would add I don't think its just the schools and companies such as Eaglejet who are fully responsible (they do take the lions share). I commented on another thread and gave a list of who I think are culpable in this sorry state of affairs.
Link outlining villains in the P2F story
Another element to this is flight schools selling these schemes to their current student body or using it as a marketing tool to those new to the industry who are blinkered to the glamorous lifestyle we all lead ......
The link takes you to my post on thread concerning OAA and their role in this sorry mess.
Link to an earlier post on OAA P2F Thread
However I would add I don't think its just the schools and companies such as Eaglejet who are fully responsible (they do take the lions share). I commented on another thread and gave a list of who I think are culpable in this sorry state of affairs.
Link outlining villains in the P2F story
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Well the point is, the comedians who do pay those 500 hours + TR, will be in front of the ones with minimum hours on a PA 28/Cessna, it is all about being prepared and ready for the career ahead.
But it's all about getting your timing right, if wrong, yeah, then you screwed with a TR and 500 hours on type, better than 250 hours in a PA 28 though!
But it's all about getting your timing right, if wrong, yeah, then you screwed with a TR and 500 hours on type, better than 250 hours in a PA 28 though!
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Most people knocking it, is because they are envious they can not afford it themselves! And they are afraid they even get further back in the que!
Normal human reaction, but the reality of the world, is that everyone will look after number one first, somebody will win and somebody will loose, that's the law of capitalism. If you can't afford to loose your money, don't go to the casino and gamble with it!
Similar situation as with this, it's a huge gamble, and depends do you have the stomach to raise the stakes? At the moment the odds are still probably better at the casinos.
But mostly, get down and get real, start at the bottom and work upwards!
Lay the foundations!
Normal human reaction, but the reality of the world, is that everyone will look after number one first, somebody will win and somebody will loose, that's the law of capitalism. If you can't afford to loose your money, don't go to the casino and gamble with it!
Similar situation as with this, it's a huge gamble, and depends do you have the stomach to raise the stakes? At the moment the odds are still probably better at the casinos.
But mostly, get down and get real, start at the bottom and work upwards!
Lay the foundations!
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PTF
Well said Tigermagicjohn....I agree...
If bloody Airlines did not ask for such high total hour and hours on jet and gave low hour wanabes a chance then these hour building scams/companies woodnt exist...YOURE FAULT!!!!YOU CHANGED AVIATION..NOT WANNABEE....
.....Greedy tight sods
P.S. You old schools pilot dont rattle on abaout the bloody turbo prob job and air taxi job root you did as there is bearly none around and tehy want more experience tahn Jet jobs...
Thing has changed....so shoulde you lot...
If bloody Airlines did not ask for such high total hour and hours on jet and gave low hour wanabes a chance then these hour building scams/companies woodnt exist...YOURE FAULT!!!!YOU CHANGED AVIATION..NOT WANNABEE....
.....Greedy tight sodsP.S. You old schools pilot dont rattle on abaout the bloody turbo prob job and air taxi job root you did as there is bearly none around and tehy want more experience tahn Jet jobs...
Thing has changed....so shoulde you lot...
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Wow well said TMJ,
Fact is do you honestly think these wannabes want to pay another £36K on top of their £60K+ debt ??? The answer is NO.
But they do it to boost there chances and fact is it will when the timing is right, a TR + 500 hours will stick out like a soar thumb compared to 250 hours in a C-150 unfortunately.
500 hours on type right now wont get you a job but in about another year or so it will, and to gain 500 hours it will take about a year minimum, so you will be finished with 500 hours and have recently flown the plane (some companies require you to have flown the type within 3 months).
But someone please explain to me how can a PTF scheme with royal air maroc affect TC's in the UK? Shouldnt people be happy that PTF is not in europe (eventhough it is) but in a 3rd world country helping them develope, plus alot of airlines would have gone bust if it wasnt for pay cuts and pay to fly.
Fact is do you honestly think these wannabes want to pay another £36K on top of their £60K+ debt ??? The answer is NO.
But they do it to boost there chances and fact is it will when the timing is right, a TR + 500 hours will stick out like a soar thumb compared to 250 hours in a C-150 unfortunately.
500 hours on type right now wont get you a job but in about another year or so it will, and to gain 500 hours it will take about a year minimum, so you will be finished with 500 hours and have recently flown the plane (some companies require you to have flown the type within 3 months).
But someone please explain to me how can a PTF scheme with royal air maroc affect TC's in the UK? Shouldnt people be happy that PTF is not in europe (eventhough it is) but in a 3rd world country helping them develope, plus alot of airlines would have gone bust if it wasnt for pay cuts and pay to fly.
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Some amazing thoughts coming out here and well, it's pretty obvious why companies are 1) doing these schemes and 2) getting away with it.
I can assure you 500 hours on a jet or even 500 just + hours on a jet will not make you stick out like a sore thumb. Companies will have no desire to give you a job. First point - the 500 hours that people are gaining in the UK are gained over the summer season and on some schemes there is no guarantee of getting 500 hours. So, at the end of the season you're not wanted anymore and therefore have no employment. The next season comes along, you apply for a full-time job but surprise surprise there is an other crop of your compatriots ready and willing to pay up leaving you with no job, your no longer operationally current (you may well pour more money into keeping your rating current in the sim) and the cycle begins.
How can you people not see what is happening. Airlines now see this as a way of making money and as a side effect, filling their summer/seasonal employment gap. What on this earth makes you think that once you have 500 hours on type the airlines are going to look at you over the near one thousand experienced guys out there in the market that are current on type, or the guys coming through the 'old school' way of turbo props etc and more importantly the guys fresh out of the schools that they can send through their current training schemes and utilize their fresh flying skills and, as has become normal, have them pay for their rating. To pick up the point of high hour requirements for airline entry can you not see all this is going to do is drive them higher as airlines will soon only want to hire high hour experienced Capts./TRI/TREs to sit beside the never ending flow of Line Training FO's sat in the right seat for their summer hols.
I don't unfortunately have the answer but guys please don't fool yourselves, be smart look at what's happening and make informed decisions don't be driven/blinded by the somewhat childish dream that lives inside us all.
PS guys my english/grammar teacher at school had a hand full with me but come on, in the age of computers - spell check. It shouldn't be this bad should it??
I can assure you 500 hours on a jet or even 500 just + hours on a jet will not make you stick out like a sore thumb. Companies will have no desire to give you a job. First point - the 500 hours that people are gaining in the UK are gained over the summer season and on some schemes there is no guarantee of getting 500 hours. So, at the end of the season you're not wanted anymore and therefore have no employment. The next season comes along, you apply for a full-time job but surprise surprise there is an other crop of your compatriots ready and willing to pay up leaving you with no job, your no longer operationally current (you may well pour more money into keeping your rating current in the sim) and the cycle begins.
How can you people not see what is happening. Airlines now see this as a way of making money and as a side effect, filling their summer/seasonal employment gap. What on this earth makes you think that once you have 500 hours on type the airlines are going to look at you over the near one thousand experienced guys out there in the market that are current on type, or the guys coming through the 'old school' way of turbo props etc and more importantly the guys fresh out of the schools that they can send through their current training schemes and utilize their fresh flying skills and, as has become normal, have them pay for their rating. To pick up the point of high hour requirements for airline entry can you not see all this is going to do is drive them higher as airlines will soon only want to hire high hour experienced Capts./TRI/TREs to sit beside the never ending flow of Line Training FO's sat in the right seat for their summer hols.
I don't unfortunately have the answer but guys please don't fool yourselves, be smart look at what's happening and make informed decisions don't be driven/blinded by the somewhat childish dream that lives inside us all.
PS guys my english/grammar teacher at school had a hand full with me but come on, in the age of computers - spell check. It shouldn't be this bad should it??
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Under the minimum wage legislation, a person must be paid if they are doing genuine and productive work.
The only exception is when someone is classified as a volunteer, which means they do not have set hours, and they are free to be absent whenever they wish.
The only exception is when someone is classified as a volunteer, which means they do not have set hours, and they are free to be absent whenever they wish.
On a side note, if people on P2F contracts are "self employed" are they not, by law, required to carry the appropriate insurance (public liability etc)??
I work as a self employed rigger and am required to show my insurance certificate to any new employer or venue i work for. I pay an arm and a leg and the worst that could happen is something I hang falling down (this isn't a flippant remark), i would love to know how much it would cost to be a "Freelance Pilot".
When i eventually get into flying i won't P2F, firstly because it is ruining the industry and secondly I don't see why i should pay a company for me to do a job for them, kind of counter intuitive really!!
Look forward to opinions.
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P2F does exist in the USA .It actually started there . But it's generally limited to smaller companies , Night light cargo ops and such ,but there's also a few regional airlines using similar schemes , although a bit more hidden .(like paying your entire training 0-ATPL in a Flying school including 3-500 hours LT with their sister company as part of the 1500h total required , with a 'guaranteed' interview at the end ) .same stories really .
Regarding the comment on P2F in Morocco ('helping a 3rd world country develop ????? ' ) .How does stealing paid employment from local as well as expat aircrew and lowering the potential expected income of our Moroccan colleagues help develop ANYTHING ?
Basically it all p.......s me off , because it makes my (and YOUR) chances to get a decent job that much more difficult .
Regarding the comment on P2F in Morocco ('helping a 3rd world country develop ????? ' ) .How does stealing paid employment from local as well as expat aircrew and lowering the potential expected income of our Moroccan colleagues help develop ANYTHING ?
Basically it all p.......s me off , because it makes my (and YOUR) chances to get a decent job that much more difficult .
Last edited by perceval; 13th Mar 2010 at 21:01.
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Interns 'exploited by employers'
BBC News - Interns 'exploited by employers', says TUC
Is this P2F?
It seems airlines are not the only companies to have adopted this.
More and more graduates are accepting so-called internships, or extended work experience programmes, which carry no salary.
Some were so desperate to get the experience, they were even prepared to pay for it, the TUC said.
In some cases that could cost thousands of pounds.
Some were so desperate to get the experience, they were even prepared to pay for it, the TUC said.
In some cases that could cost thousands of pounds.
It seems airlines are not the only companies to have adopted this.
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The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Pay2Fly schemes are unlawful according to British Employment Laws. However, I can see why it would be difficult for lawyers to spot the illegality. It's due to ignorance of how pilots obtain their qualifications and are licensed.
Lets remind us, in order for an airliner to fly from A to B it must be crewed by two ______ pilots (I will simply refer to them as pilots for now). Ignoring the fact that airlines use agencies to mask the truth, assuming the two pilots are direct employees. Ordinarily they both have to be paid a mimimum wage.
However, in the P2F scenario, the inexperienced pilot is not paid at all. Instead he is charged a heavy sum with the airline claiming that they are providing "training" at a cost and that too to another company (the TRTO) who decide to send their own "trainees". This assures that the outsider sees the whole affair as a wholly commercial transaction.
Here's where they have managed to delude people within employment law who might have otherwise spotted the illegality of it all... Most lawyers would assume that if it is training then the airline is within right to receive payment. However what they fail to see is that "training" is for the unqualified. As a type rated pilot one is fully qualified to do a job and requires no further training according to the regulatory body's rules and regulations. Sure they require supervision but that's not the same thing.
Clearly then, line "training" cannot be used as an excuse for an airline to say that they are providing training services. It is not a form of "training", it is the airline selling right hand seat time for the individual pilot to build experience and avoiding the need to therefore hire a fully paid employee who they would have to otherwise pay a minimum wage.
If the airline claims they are truly providing "training" then the new pilot is not qualified and shouldn't be operating a large aircraft with fare paying passengers.
Lets remind us, in order for an airliner to fly from A to B it must be crewed by two ______ pilots (I will simply refer to them as pilots for now). Ignoring the fact that airlines use agencies to mask the truth, assuming the two pilots are direct employees. Ordinarily they both have to be paid a mimimum wage.
However, in the P2F scenario, the inexperienced pilot is not paid at all. Instead he is charged a heavy sum with the airline claiming that they are providing "training" at a cost and that too to another company (the TRTO) who decide to send their own "trainees". This assures that the outsider sees the whole affair as a wholly commercial transaction.
Here's where they have managed to delude people within employment law who might have otherwise spotted the illegality of it all... Most lawyers would assume that if it is training then the airline is within right to receive payment. However what they fail to see is that "training" is for the unqualified. As a type rated pilot one is fully qualified to do a job and requires no further training according to the regulatory body's rules and regulations. Sure they require supervision but that's not the same thing.
Clearly then, line "training" cannot be used as an excuse for an airline to say that they are providing training services. It is not a form of "training", it is the airline selling right hand seat time for the individual pilot to build experience and avoiding the need to therefore hire a fully paid employee who they would have to otherwise pay a minimum wage.
If the airline claims they are truly providing "training" then the new pilot is not qualified and shouldn't be operating a large aircraft with fare paying passengers.
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First "Superpilot" - I think the issue is a bit more complicated then you seem to dream of. Also most of the airlines are non UK based as far as I know, so UK and even EU law would not even apply.
Your belief that being Type Rated makes you qualified is a bit utopic, yes you have proven you are can hand the beast, but your experience level on the machine is equal a little BLIP in time.
But if you think about it, at least for the Boeing, what is the price for the TR alone?
For £25000 or £29000 you get 300 or 500 hours included with your TR!
Viewed from a financial point, that is not a bad deal, to be honest I am not sure how accurate these offers really are. You are actually paying £60 - £85 per hour, and you are getting an experience which 100 times more usefull then flying around in a PA 28 or C152!
Now I instead of choosing to spend £80.000 to go to Oxford, but go modular - I can for less then Oxford price, get full package + 500 hours on a 737, incl type.
So if someone chooses a different path for a career then Oxford, maybe in the end same money going out, but you will actually have gained a major advantage, and skipped the que by a few thousands of pilots currently today instructing or freshly out with CPL/IR.
I am playing devils advocat here, if someone has the funds, and have the will to want to take it that far, does that mean he is a bad pilot? Who is not qualified?
Doubt so, furthermore being illegal, how? It is up to each indivudal to accept private agreements and contracts.
I am not defending these kind of operations, its just the way it is now for few.
Your belief that being Type Rated makes you qualified is a bit utopic, yes you have proven you are can hand the beast, but your experience level on the machine is equal a little BLIP in time.
But if you think about it, at least for the Boeing, what is the price for the TR alone?
For £25000 or £29000 you get 300 or 500 hours included with your TR!
Viewed from a financial point, that is not a bad deal, to be honest I am not sure how accurate these offers really are. You are actually paying £60 - £85 per hour, and you are getting an experience which 100 times more usefull then flying around in a PA 28 or C152!
Now I instead of choosing to spend £80.000 to go to Oxford, but go modular - I can for less then Oxford price, get full package + 500 hours on a 737, incl type.
So if someone chooses a different path for a career then Oxford, maybe in the end same money going out, but you will actually have gained a major advantage, and skipped the que by a few thousands of pilots currently today instructing or freshly out with CPL/IR.
I am playing devils advocat here, if someone has the funds, and have the will to want to take it that far, does that mean he is a bad pilot? Who is not qualified?
Doubt so, furthermore being illegal, how? It is up to each indivudal to accept private agreements and contracts.
I am not defending these kind of operations, its just the way it is now for few.