video clip addresses pilot wages vs. pilot debt.
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video clip addresses pilot wages vs. pilot debt.
Hopefully makes a person think twice before embarking on this job (not career).
Michael Moore: Pilots on food stamps. [VIDEO]
Michael Moore: Pilots on food stamps. [VIDEO]
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I believe that the full Congress hearing of Capt. Sullenberger is at its place here.
YouTube - US Airways Pilot Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger Speaks to Congress: "My Pay Has Been Cut by 40%"
Capt. Sully is the well-known hero-captain who ditch-landed an Airbus A320 in the Hudson River, New York City last year.
"As a reminder of what is really at stake, I, like thousands of my professional airline pilots know that flying a large commercial airliner is a tremendous responsibility. We clearly understand that our passengers put their lives in our hands. We know that we must always be prepared, we must always anticipate, we must always be vigilant, expecting the unexpected and having an effective plan for dealing with it must be in the very make-up of every professional airline pilot."
"While I love my profession, I do not like what has happened to it.(...) I'm deeply troubled about its future. Americans have been experiencing huge economic difficulties in recent months but airline pilots have been experiencing those challenges and more, for 8 years."
"Revolving-door management teams who abused airline employees as an ATM"
"It is my personal experience that my decision to remain in the profession I love has come at a great financial cost to me and to my family. My pay has been cut 40%, my pension like most airline pensions has been terminated and replaced by a PBGC guarranty worth only pennies of a dollar."
"Please do not think I exagerate when I say that I do not know a single airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps.
I am worried that the airline piloting profession will not be able to continue to attract the best and the brightest.
The current experience and skills of our country' s professional airline pilots come from investments made years ago when we were able to attract the ambitious, talented people who now frequently seek professional careers elsewhere.
That past investment was an indispensable element in our commercial aviation infrastructure.
Vital to safe air travel (...) "
YouTube - US Airways Pilot Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger Speaks to Congress: "My Pay Has Been Cut by 40%"
Capt. Sully is the well-known hero-captain who ditch-landed an Airbus A320 in the Hudson River, New York City last year.
"As a reminder of what is really at stake, I, like thousands of my professional airline pilots know that flying a large commercial airliner is a tremendous responsibility. We clearly understand that our passengers put their lives in our hands. We know that we must always be prepared, we must always anticipate, we must always be vigilant, expecting the unexpected and having an effective plan for dealing with it must be in the very make-up of every professional airline pilot."
"While I love my profession, I do not like what has happened to it.(...) I'm deeply troubled about its future. Americans have been experiencing huge economic difficulties in recent months but airline pilots have been experiencing those challenges and more, for 8 years."
"Revolving-door management teams who abused airline employees as an ATM"
"It is my personal experience that my decision to remain in the profession I love has come at a great financial cost to me and to my family. My pay has been cut 40%, my pension like most airline pensions has been terminated and replaced by a PBGC guarranty worth only pennies of a dollar."
"Please do not think I exagerate when I say that I do not know a single airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps.
I am worried that the airline piloting profession will not be able to continue to attract the best and the brightest.
The current experience and skills of our country' s professional airline pilots come from investments made years ago when we were able to attract the ambitious, talented people who now frequently seek professional careers elsewhere.
That past investment was an indispensable element in our commercial aviation infrastructure.
Vital to safe air travel (...) "
Last edited by fly_antonov; 16th Feb 2010 at 12:21.
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What a nonsence this thread is; market forces and the laws of supply and demand will set the pay rate.
If a rated and licenced (by the Authority) pilot can be sourced cheaper then he will be. If the same 'chap' is willing to pay for the 'experience' then all the better.
No one is either forced to accept poor terms, or even enter the profession. What is so difficult to understand?
If a rated and licenced (by the Authority) pilot can be sourced cheaper then he will be. If the same 'chap' is willing to pay for the 'experience' then all the better.
No one is either forced to accept poor terms, or even enter the profession. What is so difficult to understand?
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BigNumber:
The difference is that when a person like you gets tired, you may fall out of your chair at your desk. When a pilot gets tired and falls asleep at the wheel, he/she may end up killing hundreds of people. I apologize if that is too complex to get through your head.
The difference is that when a person like you gets tired, you may fall out of your chair at your desk. When a pilot gets tired and falls asleep at the wheel, he/she may end up killing hundreds of people. I apologize if that is too complex to get through your head.
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But the true costs are hidden. One of these are the effects of debts carried by the hopeful new entrants. Flying still attracts too many people (like me) who like knobs and buttons and pretty views out of the window. Their career decisions are based on emotions rather than than logical processes and as such, have little future planning incorporated. The other costs are personal costs whereby their ties to friends and family are broken as they are forced to work further and further away from home. Eventually the chickens will come home to roost and that is when the true costs will be realised. Aircraft will operated dangerously and the lives of those who fly and those on the ground will be threatened as a result. It is pretty obvious who the guilty parties are. Come the smoking hole, this site will be goldmine to compensation lawyer.
My children will not be taking up flying for a living and I don't know of a single colleague who will be encouraging their children either. This suggests we have a very broken industry.
PM
My children will not be taking up flying for a living and I don't know of a single colleague who will be encouraging their children either. This suggests we have a very broken industry.
PM
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Poor/wrong analysis
Bignumber:
not forced, but obliged to accept as previous fellows have already ruined the whole system by buying their type or 'experience' as you say.
However helpless is our status with the advent of low cost carriers.
Going on like this, the pilot job will revert to the 60-70's...a job for the rich only!
If a rated and licenced (by the Authority) pilot can be sourced cheaper then he will be. If the same 'chap' is willing to pay for the 'experience' then all the better.
No one is either forced to accept poor terms
not forced, but obliged to accept as previous fellows have already ruined the whole system by buying their type or 'experience' as you say.
However helpless is our status with the advent of low cost carriers.
Going on like this, the pilot job will revert to the 60-70's...a job for the rich only!
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lpokijuhyt,
Wrong assumption! Far from being in the management team, I am a lowly pilot just like you.
Infact, 1900hrs tonight -off down the runway I go. I have just come to realise that the pay arguement is rather flawed when I perform a task others are willing to do for less. ( Or even pay to do! ).
I do not like the situation, nor did I ever imagine in my wildest dreams that the market could fall so far. The situation is verging on the ridiculous, but Supply and Demand must, and will, apply.
IMHO, Pay and Terms have some scope to fall further. The accountants know that we love to fly and will exploit our weakness.
ps. The engineers would never be so dumb.
BN
Wrong assumption! Far from being in the management team, I am a lowly pilot just like you.
Infact, 1900hrs tonight -off down the runway I go. I have just come to realise that the pay arguement is rather flawed when I perform a task others are willing to do for less. ( Or even pay to do! ).
I do not like the situation, nor did I ever imagine in my wildest dreams that the market could fall so far. The situation is verging on the ridiculous, but Supply and Demand must, and will, apply.
IMHO, Pay and Terms have some scope to fall further. The accountants know that we love to fly and will exploit our weakness.
ps. The engineers would never be so dumb.
BN
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Thanks FordCortina,
Sadly, the 'stary eyed' likes of lpokijuhyt et al do not want to accept that the market changed.
Not a gradual trend down over a extended time period, but more a 'step change', as the accountants epiphany kicked in. The pilots will pay to work or, at worst, accept progressively ever lower pay!
Pilots love to fly and salary is only a nice to have, not a must have. Concorde House is now full of smiling 'two bar', badly shaved kids, delighted to 'spunk' their inheritance for a ride at the PTF fairground. Mortgages, pensions and kids clothes are not upper most in their mind or planning. The 'Cut' of their Wensums finest and swank before Mum's 'Bridge Club' circle are of greater importance.
Those of us too far down the road to turn back will suffer the most both in terms of career progression and future earnings.
You have to laugh or you'd be obliged to cry!
BN
Sadly, the 'stary eyed' likes of lpokijuhyt et al do not want to accept that the market changed.
Not a gradual trend down over a extended time period, but more a 'step change', as the accountants epiphany kicked in. The pilots will pay to work or, at worst, accept progressively ever lower pay!
Pilots love to fly and salary is only a nice to have, not a must have. Concorde House is now full of smiling 'two bar', badly shaved kids, delighted to 'spunk' their inheritance for a ride at the PTF fairground. Mortgages, pensions and kids clothes are not upper most in their mind or planning. The 'Cut' of their Wensums finest and swank before Mum's 'Bridge Club' circle are of greater importance.
Those of us too far down the road to turn back will suffer the most both in terms of career progression and future earnings.
You have to laugh or you'd be obliged to cry!
BN
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I'm going to create an airline that fits in the niche between Private Charters and First Class with extra amenities for non low fare prices. I will then pay my first officers 42K starting, plus offer them housing that is owned by my airline. You cannot eat non rev tickets. Nor resell them for that matter.
I will support this by not allowing management to make 500K annually like at many airlines and no bonuses. Regardless, pilots should make more than they do, and they should have better working conditions than they are forced to deal with.
It is sad that 18-22 year olds desperate to fly for nothing because they still live with Mum and Dad will always be in supply. But proper airline management will allow the system to be proper. Unions are part to blame because at Southwest non-unionized pilots make decent pay. Among the highest in the US. For a low fare with no 20K first class tickets. Many majors have their expenditures way out of control and shouldn't be allowed protection when they go bankrupt. They, like the banks, should just be allowed to fail and fall into oblivion. United, Continental etc should be gone.
If China Airlines Cargo can pay their cargo agents 21K starting salary and up every year on, then Trans States, Colgan Air, Pinnacle, Skywest can pay their pilots who carry the livelihood of their companies revenues more than 18K yearly. Even some of the ramp agents make more than the pilots.
And instead of trying to buy hundreds of brand new crjs, why don't these companies try to get a healthy company as opposed to a gigantic one?
18K yearly while being overworked is simply abysmal.
Because believe it or not, these pilots carry the lives of hundreds in their hands in IMC conditions flying heavy machinery for hours with extreme precision. Doctors make 6 figs why shouldn't pilots. Afterall they carry more lives in their hands in one second than a doctor does in a day. Colgan 3407 was an example of the system failing. If you're too dumb to see that, then PERHAPS you shouldn't speak on the matter because you're not helping any side.
But the real truth is, regional airlines aren't very profitable, and their revenues are supplemented with gov't grants thru airports and also mainline carrier revenues. The US should move towards trains for small distances (LAX-SAN or LAX-BUR) so that pilots don't have to go through all the BULLS
. I think part of this is America's reliance on air travel where air travel probably isn't the best mode of transport. (not regarding cargo).
Perhaps if capitalism is why prices are so low, then maybe capitalism needs to go since it (according to your rationale) is what killed the people of Colgan 3407.
I will support this by not allowing management to make 500K annually like at many airlines and no bonuses. Regardless, pilots should make more than they do, and they should have better working conditions than they are forced to deal with.
It is sad that 18-22 year olds desperate to fly for nothing because they still live with Mum and Dad will always be in supply. But proper airline management will allow the system to be proper. Unions are part to blame because at Southwest non-unionized pilots make decent pay. Among the highest in the US. For a low fare with no 20K first class tickets. Many majors have their expenditures way out of control and shouldn't be allowed protection when they go bankrupt. They, like the banks, should just be allowed to fail and fall into oblivion. United, Continental etc should be gone.
If China Airlines Cargo can pay their cargo agents 21K starting salary and up every year on, then Trans States, Colgan Air, Pinnacle, Skywest can pay their pilots who carry the livelihood of their companies revenues more than 18K yearly. Even some of the ramp agents make more than the pilots.
And instead of trying to buy hundreds of brand new crjs, why don't these companies try to get a healthy company as opposed to a gigantic one?
18K yearly while being overworked is simply abysmal.
Because believe it or not, these pilots carry the lives of hundreds in their hands in IMC conditions flying heavy machinery for hours with extreme precision. Doctors make 6 figs why shouldn't pilots. Afterall they carry more lives in their hands in one second than a doctor does in a day. Colgan 3407 was an example of the system failing. If you're too dumb to see that, then PERHAPS you shouldn't speak on the matter because you're not helping any side.But the real truth is, regional airlines aren't very profitable, and their revenues are supplemented with gov't grants thru airports and also mainline carrier revenues. The US should move towards trains for small distances (LAX-SAN or LAX-BUR) so that pilots don't have to go through all the BULLS
. I think part of this is America's reliance on air travel where air travel probably isn't the best mode of transport. (not regarding cargo).Perhaps if capitalism is why prices are so low, then maybe capitalism needs to go since it (according to your rationale) is what killed the people of Colgan 3407.
Last edited by captain_overspeed; 17th Feb 2010 at 10:59.
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Excellent report.
I hope that the media doesn't see the report, but every wanabbe pilot sees it before spending 60K-80K on there training.
The training companies would go out of bussiness over night, if every student saw this. instead of the traning compaines making us think thats its the down trun and there will be jobs in two years time, when really its very unlikely.
There was an open in a european airline in january for a first officer job. there where over 600 people who appiled for it.
so there the fact on how many people are out there trying to get an aviation flying job.
I hope that the media doesn't see the report, but every wanabbe pilot sees it before spending 60K-80K on there training.
The training companies would go out of bussiness over night, if every student saw this. instead of the traning compaines making us think thats its the down trun and there will be jobs in two years time, when really its very unlikely.
There was an open in a european airline in january for a first officer job. there where over 600 people who appiled for it.
so there the fact on how many people are out there trying to get an aviation flying job.
