What happened after my Pilapt assessment.

[Crescentpirate]

Sorry to double post..

Just a question. Are these people who are saying 'Don;t start training yet' actually pilots...or are you wannabees gunning for the same job as I? Please shed some light, thank you.

[SW1]

Hi Crescent,

OK, just to give you a brief insight into how I did it.

Got my PPL by doing a University degree with "pilot studies" that cost 3300 Pounds sterling. Passed my PPL skills test May 2008.

Started Distance learning ATPLs June 2008, finished all 14 exams passed April 2009.
Took a month off my studies, September- October 2008. Did 95 hours hours builiding, solo and 5 hours night rating.
Then completed my multi engine instrument rating and multi engine piston rating from 15th may 2009 and passed IR skills test on the 31st May 2009, thats about 2 weeks flying every day In Greece. Then did my CPL, reduced to 15 hours, in about 4 weeks- passed CPL skills test 1st July 2009. Total costs including PPL, 40,000 pounds sterling. MCC completed August 2009. Less than 18 months total and have considerably less debt than integrated students, loan repaymnets of 400 a month over 8 years, you can live with that.....

One more thing, by checking peoples profiles you will find whether your fellow pruners are wannabes still in training, FIs, airline pilots or anything else.

[Crescentpirate]

Thank you

40,000. It does seem considerably cheaper than 69,000 that is for sure.
18 months is fairly speedy rate as well. What did you do to get finance in place? Also did you go full-time or part-time on your flying before you went to Greece?

I don't want to fly for the money but it would be nice if i could sleep on a mattress at night haha. It seems that your route has been more reasonable to somebody in my position.
Have you been recruited by an airline yet or are you still pending an interview / decision?

Thank you.

[SW1]

To get finance I needed a loan, there was no chance in hell that the banks would give me one without security. I was 26 by this point, had worked from leaving school at 16 till 21, had a decent credit rating and a no debts other than my student loan as a maturish student.

Had to speak to a family relative who owned a flat in London, got 35K lent to me, secured on the family members property- awful thing to ask a loved one, but like you- I wanted it yesterday and was sure I would pay it back. Just about meeting repayments.

I did all my training modular, full time. I distance learned the ATPL exams, as I had studied most of these whilst at Uuni in some shape or from and didnt fancy sitting in a classroom for extended periods of time again, so I studied in the comfort of my own home and showed up for the exams after completing progress tests.

Im not going to go into my commercial history, because that is a different story. I just wanted to show you that modular is considerably cheaper. No one has ever turned their nose up at my method of training. Good luck with whatever you do, but just choose wisely, its all the same bits of paper in the end. Mattress in a house or cardboard box under a bridge? You decide....

One more thing to add, Im currently out of work at the moment, looking for ANY flying job. Cant get a look in because I have not got the minimum requirements, low houred, some multi engine turbine time but still nadda!! Integrated guys are in the same boat as me, hoping they will get plucked out a holding pool sometime soon (tic toc tic toc) times ticking away ratings are expiring- you know the rest.

[IrishJetdriver]

I still say don't do it.

8000hr Line Training Captain for Ryanair.

Qualified enough to comment?

[Kelly Hopper]

I am sorry Crescentpirate but if your comments are typical of wannabees in this game then not only does that explain to me why F/O's seem to be getting worse, (arrogant beyond belief AND incapable), with time but also where this industry in heading.
a) If you think it is a good idea to borrow sh1t loads of money with no intention to pay it back you may well be in for quite a shock!
b) Right from the outset you speak of earning loads of money. Again you are in for a big shock.
c) I can see to you it's all about buying a position in an airline. That is where you may be right however as that seems the only way in at the mo... for 6 months anyway!

Why not grow up and research what flying is really all about. Particularly the correct personality required in this job. Most of what you need to know re. the job market is on pprune and it is not good reading.

There ya go from 28 years in the biz with piston single pilot charter, turbo prop, corporate medium jet, airline, and heavy experience!

Oh, and by the way...there is no pilots shortage. There never has been and there never will be. Amazing these schools still play that line and suckers take it in. I guess you believe what you want to believe.

[lpokijuhyt]

The guy who started this thread simply wanted to cause a little discussion. Personally, I feel it is a fake post.

[Crescentpirate]

Excuse me but...

I am sorry Crescentpirate but if your comments are typical of wannabees in this game then not only does that explain to me why F/O's seem to be getting worse, (arrogant beyond belief AND incapable), with time but also where this industry in heading.
a) If you think it is a good idea to borrow sh1t loads of money with no intention to pay it back you may well be in for quite a shock!
b) Right from the outset you speak of earning loads of money. Again you are in for a big shock.
c) I can see to you it's all about buying a position in an airline. That is where you may be right however as that seems the only way in at the mo... for 6 months anyway!

Why not grow up and research what flying is really all about. Particularly the correct personality required in this job. Most of what you need to know re. the job market is on PPRuNe and it is not good reading.

There ya go from 28 years in the biz with piston single pilot charter, turbo prop, corporate medium jet, airline, and heavy experience!

Oh, and by the way...there is no pilots shortage. There never has been and there never will be. Amazing these schools still play that line and suckers take it in. I guess you believe what you want to believe.

With the kindest regard...you do not have a clue who I am or know my passion for flying. I have done research and have simply came to throw a few ideas out there to the community and see the response. This is not about the money to me but in the end of the day, I have to be a businessman about this. If innocent people get hurt in my achievement morally this is something I can live with because I have not been born, I am not living until I am in the sky. My family are very supportive and I have told them everything including the risks. They are encouraging me to go ahead regardless.

So thank you for your input, but your opinions at this point do not matter to me if you are to simply question my passion and my intentions of why I chose this career.

[Crescentpirate]

The guy who started this thread simply wanted to cause a little discussion. Personally, I feel it is a fake post.

It is not fake. This is my current situation at the present moment.

[Crescentpirate]

Just read all this, jaw dropping and hitting the ground - I really can't believe that I'm reading/seeing this demonstration of utter arrogance and gullibility over and over... again! If that's who's flying people to Malaga these days...

I know I'm going to sound like my Granny (RIP) now, but:
1. Since when is it ok to spend someone else's money to satisfy your ego?
2. How difficult is it to read the newpaper and get some sort of picture of what's going on in the world outside your own head?
3. What is wrong with waiting/saving for what you want (if you really must fly...)? If it's worth doing, it's worth doing it slowly and gently..

Just talked to someone who was deliberating on whether to buy a few hundred hours on a turboprop or a shiny jet, so do excuse my outburst...

Who said anything about satisfying my ego? Okay I am not expecting to land a job straight away. The thing is that license gives me that tiny opportunity, that slight rare possibility of that telephone call or that letter through the door. Is it not worth that?

I appreciate the quote, good things come to those who wait. I am young yes but I want to start early. I don't know how long my health will hold up, hell I don't even know if I will be alive in a few years because ANYTHING could happen.

I expect your response to be somewhat negative, clearly you are out of touch with my point and maybe share a different passion to aviation than I. You may even question my passion for aviation at all. The fact of the matter is though, must I care what you people think? I simply came here for advice and guidance in which I may or may not follow. I did not come for a lecture.

Thank you.

[Aerouk]

Sorry, but you really need your head checked.

You honestly want to get you licence as quickly as possible when there are no jobs? Where is the sense in that, have you not seen the airlines that have collapsed and the amount of experienced and low hour pilots that are still waiting around for a job?

It's not going to get better for another 4-5years minimum for low hour pilots! You aren't thinking about it as a businessman, no businessman would invest 80k in an opportunity which gives him no return at all. It's about taking risks which are manageable.

I understand the dream of flying, but putting yourself and your family in huge amounts of stress and debt will do you no good.

[fly_antonov]

The thing is that license gives me that tiny opportunity, that slight rare possibility of that telephone call or that letter through the door. Is it not worth that?

No, at least not for now.

If you want to get in risk-free, I' d advise you to buy ATPL books and start reading. They are easy to read, even for beginners.

The modular practical training can be done in less than 6 months if you start in the spring. The ATPL theory is the one that takes most time to clear, so if you prepare that in advance, you are ready to bounce in anytime you judge it is worth jumping in. This is relative to everyone but for me it would be when airlines would be desperate to hire on acceptable T&C' s.

If you work another job now, you can easily save 30K over the next 2 years and cover over 60% of your modular training' s cost. You won' t miss a thing in the meanwhile, except maybe the expensive license renewals and alot of frustration from the negative or lack of response from the operators.

After work, grab your ATPL' s and read. Read all the books at least 50 times and go for a 100 on all subjects. You won' t get a 100 because many questions are very tricky, but you won' t be far off.

If you can, find a job in aviation. I' d avoid check-in or jobs like that, go for more operational aircraft-related jobs.
Don' t tell your potential employers that you want to become a pilot, tell them that you are very interested in aviation and that you would work for them for another 30 years. They hate wannabe pilots because they didn' t work for longer than 3 years in the past (though they tend to stick around longer now, guess why).

If you do find such a job you will realise that all this no-airline-jobs talk is real. You will meet many frozen ATPL' s there (many lie their way in or know somebody on the inside, because otherwise they are not in demand for the above mentionned reason), and you will more than ever enjoy your debtless situation.
My personal experience (pm me if you want details)

To reiterate my advice:

• Work another aviation related job (I repeat, don' t tell them at the job interview that you want to become a pilot), in the meanwhile study the ATPL books.
• Save at least 30K on a savings account (it is such a pleasure to see the balance go up and up) over the next 2 years, rely on mom and dad for that.
• If and when the airlines start hiring again, still hold your breath, don't jump in too soon. Remember, there' s alot of people in the same pool, and they' re all at least as good as you are.
• When you see more than 50% of airlines hiring first officers, jump in immediately, pass your theory exams that you have prepared and do your practical training full time in less than 6 months, using money from your savings.

That' s the best advice I can give to you and to all other wannabe' s.
We' re all in the same boat (though I' m already considering other careers, if I do get the right opportunities) and we should all help eachother.

Good luck.

[IrishJetdriver]

I hope you still hold your head high when the property is sold to service your loan. The above post is good advice.

If you want to fly you've got years ahead of you to do it in. A command decision is based on the best advice, information and experience and always having an alternative should it go wrong.

What you're saying is that despite the weather forecast at destination being below limits, you're going to go and land there even though your alternates are wide open.

Not big or clever. I hope you have the courage to post your experience after completing training and to keep it updated. Maybe you'll surprise us all but I really really doubt it.

However, as you're hell bent on financial suicide not only for yourself but more so for your financial backer, the first thing you need to do is get yourself down to the CAA and get a class 1 medical. Without that you'll never fly anything more than a paper plane.

[Mikehotel152]

Crescentpilot,

In typical PPRUNE fashion your original post has stirred the hornets' nest due to the utter disbelief engendered in the regulars by your apparent lack of research into the state of the Aviation Industry. It is sad and regrettable that this deluge of criticism will cause you to withdraw into your shell and reject any advice that contradicts the views you have already formed. Please look through the tone of the advice and think carefully about what people are saying.

While it may sound to you like many replies to your thread are merely sour grapes, this is not the case. The marketing given to you by the flight training organisation that you visited is just that: marketing designed to extract your money. When I started my training in 2007 I heard the same warnings of imminent pilot shortages that you are now hearing. 3 years later there are more out of work pilots than ever before. Some of them are very dear friends of mine with young families.

I joined 20-odd others at CTC for a Pilapt, Group tests and an Interview a year ago. I was one of 3 who passed and were offered a place in their pool of pilots. That pool was 100 pilots then. It's common-knowledge that the pool hasn't emptied because none of CTC's customer airlines are recruiting. CTC is just one of the companies that sell dreams to young men and women while knowing full-well that those dreams would be better confined to a pipe. I'm glad I didn't jump into that expensive pool.

I have since met many apparently 'top' pilots waiting in various British Airways, CTC or other pools waiting for their chance. To say they've awoken from the dream is an understatement; it's more like the dream has turned into a nightmare. A year in the pool and their £80-100K loans are continuing to generate interest; their lack of prospects and recurrence causes headaches. Many are turning to other industries.

Time is on your side. Therefore I recommend fly_antonov's post as the fairest advice.

If, as you say, you have done your research, please consider this thread as further research. Take the advice seriously. If you want to PM me or anyone else, please go ahead and people will be more honest and helpful in private that they're likely to be in public.

Cheers,

MH152

[adverse-bump]

you may which to bear in mind that the aviation industry is on its knees! 100s of experienced guys are out of work. When things pick up, who do you think will get work. a 5000 hours FO, or a kid who finished oxford 12 months ago, and has flown 5 hours in a cessna since his mcc!

its all about timing, you say you want to do it as soon as possible, WHY!!! so take your time! and good luck!

[Tiger_ Moth]

You're right Crescentpirate, you may as well go ahead and do this because most of these people probably don't know what they are talking about. They might have decades of experience of the industry but they are just being negative and mean.

With an attitude like this:

If innocent people get hurt in my achievement morally this is something I can live with because I have not been born, I am not living until I am in the sky.

you can't but fail to get a job straight out of training. I'm sure not many others can have that level of commitment to not care if innocent love ones get hurt out of it. You're the kind of character the airlines are looking for.

I'll give you the advice you came on here for: do it kid, you're gonna make a skygod one day and prove all this negativity wrong.

Don't let these meanie realists talk you out of it!!!

[Crescentpirate]

Thanks everyone.

Both sides, both against and and for, I feel are correct.

It is a large risk, possibly suicidal to undertake training. On the other hand no matter how slim my chances are if I go ahead, there is still a slim chance nevertheless.
Of course no logical action-planned mind would go ahead as it would seem as though they would not succeed. Most people I would imagine would have this way of thinking.

However the high risk, the more than likely event of my failure, there may be that slightest chance.

Thank you for your input everybody. I will have to sit down and seriously consider what path I will choose. My 'go grab it' attitude may well be my success, or my downfall.

[lpokijuhyt]

TigerMoth: Your advice is cruel and mean. This is the real world. I know we were all taught from a young age to follow our dreams, but it is important not abandon logic, reason and reality in the pursuit of that pot of gold.

[Tiger_ Moth]

Ummm... yeah. That was the point of my post! It was a bit tongue in cheek I must confess!

This guys not gonna listen to anyone so he may as well hear what he wants to hear.

[IrishJetdriver]

Why follow a path where there is huge financial risk and little chance of success when you can wait a couple of years, follow the same path but with hopefully less risk and more chance of success? You're only 19 for God sake. You have Jack s**t life experience. So far you demonstrate the character of a small child who just screams until they get what they want. Difference is you're an adult and screaming won't get you a job when you've finished. I suspect that you'll believe it was the nasty mean airlines and HR personnel's fault, not your own. Go and get some real world life experience then do the training if you still want to.

At present I think you have entirely the wrong attitude. You come across as arrogant and selfish. Neither of these attributes are welcome on the flight deck. Get the class 1 medical and grow up. Please.