Who has decided to give up recently, and how much money have you wasted?
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Northern Boy, you sound like a broken record. You know how I know? Because I have made the same statements you have made over and over again, I could have typed that post myself. I agree with you 100%, but what can be done? I have experience on some 20 aircraft types, flying in different operations all over the world and guess what.....it means jack all!
Question now is what can be done about it? I would love to see a law that airlines must publish the average experience of their crews. I can tell you that I feel a hell of a lot more secure on Emirates than on Ryanair, because I know the requirements for both airlines. I am sure this will have an effect on peoples choice of carrier.
Maybe we need a lobby group. I dont know.
I have been made redundant twice this year mate, it looks like I might get some part time work for a couple of months, fingers crossed. So I know exactly how you feel. I wish you luck mate.
Question now is what can be done about it? I would love to see a law that airlines must publish the average experience of their crews. I can tell you that I feel a hell of a lot more secure on Emirates than on Ryanair, because I know the requirements for both airlines. I am sure this will have an effect on peoples choice of carrier.
Maybe we need a lobby group. I dont know.
I have been made redundant twice this year mate, it looks like I might get some part time work for a couple of months, fingers crossed. So I know exactly how you feel. I wish you luck mate.
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Sometimes I literally can't believe the things I see on this forum.
That must be a wind-up?
You think 'ambition and determination' have got anything to do with employment chances in the current economic turmoil?
I just can't be bothered any more!!!!!
That must be a wind-up?
You think 'ambition and determination' have got anything to do with employment chances in the current economic turmoil?
I just can't be bothered any more!!!!!
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I despair. Ambition and determination have sod all to do with it in the current economic climate. There are close to 200 people sitting in the hold pool for CTC right now with all the ambition and determination in the world, but guess what? THERE ARE NO JOBS. NONE!
Your ludicrous comments, High-Higher, smack of someone who is either on the wind up, or quite literally has no clue about anything to do with this industry.
Your ludicrous comments, High-Higher, smack of someone who is either on the wind up, or quite literally has no clue about anything to do with this industry.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Or may be you're all posting on a forum complaining because you lack the ambition and determination of those soaring in the skies with a comfortable job.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
My view (RHS turboprop, relatively safe job) is that the industry right now is as bad as it’s ever been, and I’m far from convinced that the worst is over. Ambition and determination are important factors in finding a job (and are pretty much a given, seeing as one needs a fair bit of determination even to qualify), but by far and away the most important factor is timing. If someone is unfortunate enough to be training when the industry falls off a cliff, or unwise enough to start training during a recession, then all the ambition and determination in the world will not be enough to get you a job.
Let alone a ‘comfortable’ one.
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Ambition & Determination
Due to becoming the family breadwinner, I only managed to start flying and qualify at the end of 1999 when a downturn was already in evidence and I was fast approaching 40! I have instructed since 2000 and overall have enjoyed it immensly, although it was intended as a stepping stone.
Once 9/11 came along and I hit 40, there was a noticeable change in attitude to employment by the airlines. In order to address concerns over being viewed as a training risk, I undertook the MSc Air Transport Management and just missed out on a Distinction. This I did, to show I could still learn.
The final bit of self made madness came when I was lured into 2 "promises" of jobs flying 757s, so I borrowed more money for my SSTR and received "excellent" written comments for my LST and Base Training, but the "jobs" vanished once I declared I couldn't find another £25k for LPC/OPC and Line Training! So here I am, 10 years later still yearning to achieve my childhood dream I've nurtured since aged 5, reading some rubbish implying the likes of myself lack ambition and determination! As is clear, you need these 2 qualities amongst others just to qualify!
To keep going 10 years plus, trying all avenues takes heaps more! Things that lead to employment once you have your ATPLF are luck (being in the right place at the right time), contacts (you can't have enough, don't fall out with anyone!) and publicly maintaining a positive mental attitude (you can get down and pull out your hair in private, no potential employer wants a moaner).
Over the years, I have helped others to achieve their Airline positions and in the main they have displayed a great attitude, but there are some who with a couple of hundred hours and with no cv writing at all got their jobs on the strength of who their fathers were or knew! It is a tough world out there but people like these haven't a clue!
Once 9/11 came along and I hit 40, there was a noticeable change in attitude to employment by the airlines. In order to address concerns over being viewed as a training risk, I undertook the MSc Air Transport Management and just missed out on a Distinction. This I did, to show I could still learn.
The final bit of self made madness came when I was lured into 2 "promises" of jobs flying 757s, so I borrowed more money for my SSTR and received "excellent" written comments for my LST and Base Training, but the "jobs" vanished once I declared I couldn't find another £25k for LPC/OPC and Line Training! So here I am, 10 years later still yearning to achieve my childhood dream I've nurtured since aged 5, reading some rubbish implying the likes of myself lack ambition and determination! As is clear, you need these 2 qualities amongst others just to qualify!
To keep going 10 years plus, trying all avenues takes heaps more! Things that lead to employment once you have your ATPLF are luck (being in the right place at the right time), contacts (you can't have enough, don't fall out with anyone!) and publicly maintaining a positive mental attitude (you can get down and pull out your hair in private, no potential employer wants a moaner).
Over the years, I have helped others to achieve their Airline positions and in the main they have displayed a great attitude, but there are some who with a couple of hundred hours and with no cv writing at all got their jobs on the strength of who their fathers were or knew! It is a tough world out there but people like these haven't a clue!
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It's alarming but true
I'm unfortunately forced to agree with so many on here who are saying the golden age of the airline pilot is well and truly over. I spent ten years in management at a very large airline and took the plunge to train and am now rhs turboprop. The pay prospects in this career really make no sense at all when you consider the alternatives out there if you're 20-35 and of moderate ability. I find myself probably years away from command due to lack of progression in the industry and none of the other better paying airlines are hiring or are likely to hire in the next 2+ years.
Thus I like countless others will still be earning 30k ish for years to come. This was quite simply never part of the gameplan when I went down this road.
In my view if you want to fly - go military, if you want a great lifestyle find another career you can tolerate and earn enough to fly for fun. I do enjoy the flying - especially when the roster slackens off a bit and you can have a bit of a life around it which is increasingly rare.... The simple fact is though you'd earn far more in:
banking (my friend in this makes £280k a year)
Car sales (my friends in this earn £90k a year incl commission
Estate agency (no friends in this - but Foxtons reckon £70k yr 2 plus car!)
Medicine (£110k-£300k)
Law (Friends earn £70-£100k)
Electrician (guy I use charges £300/day - £80k a year)
Plumber (mate has just gone self employed and expects £70k a year)
AGA installer/repairer (Mate does this makes up to £800 a day and says he takes home £5000-£7000 a month working ten days a month)
IT sales (friend runs 911, £130k boat £1.2m house and says a bad yr is £120k, a good yr £300k)
IT contractor (I did this £440 a day - £110k a year)
IT Security manager in a bank £80-£130k (three mates do this)
When you look at these salaries and then compare it with the £30k a F/O might get paid and the £55k a Capt gets at my outfit (and none of these guys above had to pay £100k for their training)
Frankly all my mates think it's really cool I fly airliners for a living but it doesn't pay the mortgage, or the training loans, or private school fees or for a nice house and nice holidays - all things the people above take for granted.
All of my mates regard salaries in this industry as a farce. You owe it to yourself to think twice about plunging into this industry now with the way it is and having loved it all my life I actually find that a hard thing to admit to.
The writing is on the wall for the piloting as a profession, the flying is great but the lifestyle that goes with it...
Desk-pilot
Thus I like countless others will still be earning 30k ish for years to come. This was quite simply never part of the gameplan when I went down this road.
In my view if you want to fly - go military, if you want a great lifestyle find another career you can tolerate and earn enough to fly for fun. I do enjoy the flying - especially when the roster slackens off a bit and you can have a bit of a life around it which is increasingly rare.... The simple fact is though you'd earn far more in:
banking (my friend in this makes £280k a year)
Car sales (my friends in this earn £90k a year incl commission
Estate agency (no friends in this - but Foxtons reckon £70k yr 2 plus car!)
Medicine (£110k-£300k)
Law (Friends earn £70-£100k)
Electrician (guy I use charges £300/day - £80k a year)
Plumber (mate has just gone self employed and expects £70k a year)
AGA installer/repairer (Mate does this makes up to £800 a day and says he takes home £5000-£7000 a month working ten days a month)
IT sales (friend runs 911, £130k boat £1.2m house and says a bad yr is £120k, a good yr £300k)
IT contractor (I did this £440 a day - £110k a year)
IT Security manager in a bank £80-£130k (three mates do this)
When you look at these salaries and then compare it with the £30k a F/O might get paid and the £55k a Capt gets at my outfit (and none of these guys above had to pay £100k for their training)
Frankly all my mates think it's really cool I fly airliners for a living but it doesn't pay the mortgage, or the training loans, or private school fees or for a nice house and nice holidays - all things the people above take for granted.
All of my mates regard salaries in this industry as a farce. You owe it to yourself to think twice about plunging into this industry now with the way it is and having loved it all my life I actually find that a hard thing to admit to.
The writing is on the wall for the piloting as a profession, the flying is great but the lifestyle that goes with it...
Desk-pilot
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Couldn't agree more with G-SXTY and Desk-pilot. Similar position, RHS T/P, good experience under the belt now, a few thousand hours, and for the life of me I cannot see how we (TP guys) further our careers from now on. When I got my first commercial airline job on a heavy TP, the "traditional" progression was still alive and well i.e build up good experience on Air Taxi, then TP's, then hopefully a jet fleet if you wish to go that way.
Indeed friends of mine who got into aviation before me have indeed followed this old tried and tested route and are now with the likes of Monarch, Thompson, Thomas Cook, Easy. However within the last relatively few years, I fear we've witnessed the death knell of this tried and tested route. With airlines basically taking on in essence agency staff, on poor T's and C's, I really do wonder where this industry is heading, and rapidly.
Where it leaves guys with good experience on TP's, well, it worries me put it that way.
Indeed friends of mine who got into aviation before me have indeed followed this old tried and tested route and are now with the likes of Monarch, Thompson, Thomas Cook, Easy. However within the last relatively few years, I fear we've witnessed the death knell of this tried and tested route. With airlines basically taking on in essence agency staff, on poor T's and C's, I really do wonder where this industry is heading, and rapidly.
Where it leaves guys with good experience on TP's, well, it worries me put it that way.
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The irony of all of this is that everyone screams about money!
Have a look a what you do within the industry you work in. Aviation can be a bugger to get into but, once there, it is also a nice place to work.
Ok the 'golden years' are possibly behind us but what I do from day to day is not exactly strenuous. I turn up to work, print out my paperwork, turn on the jet and fly to where the company wish me to be. Get off and go to a nice hotel. Chill out for a day, possibly 2 and then fly back. Repeat 3/4 times a month and job done.
No deadlines, no commission, very little paperwork etc. etc. etc.
So, whilst I may be paid less than my erstwhile professional compadres in other walks of life, my daily routine is fairly pleasant.
If you ever get to blunder about in a LH jet you will see what I mean.
Good luck to all.
Have a look a what you do within the industry you work in. Aviation can be a bugger to get into but, once there, it is also a nice place to work.
Ok the 'golden years' are possibly behind us but what I do from day to day is not exactly strenuous. I turn up to work, print out my paperwork, turn on the jet and fly to where the company wish me to be. Get off and go to a nice hotel. Chill out for a day, possibly 2 and then fly back. Repeat 3/4 times a month and job done.
No deadlines, no commission, very little paperwork etc. etc. etc.
So, whilst I may be paid less than my erstwhile professional compadres in other walks of life, my daily routine is fairly pleasant.
If you ever get to blunder about in a LH jet you will see what I mean.
Good luck to all.
The point made about the death of the traditional progression from regional turboprop operation to jet airline operation is a key thing to understand.
Something which has been a given for decades has suddenly changed. If people are willing to pay far more than it costs to train them to work as part time FO's on contractor type terms the beancounters will never allow an experienced TP pilot to be hired for a jet job ever again. This has massive implications for career management.
As, has been pointed out, topping your career on £55k is not much return for the investment you make in training. Its mad given the responsibility, instability, aptitude and work you have to put in.
I love my job and I love flying my A319 and I love earning what I earn. But there is no way on earth that I'm letting my Son follow in his Dads footsteps. Which is melancholic.
WWW
Something which has been a given for decades has suddenly changed. If people are willing to pay far more than it costs to train them to work as part time FO's on contractor type terms the beancounters will never allow an experienced TP pilot to be hired for a jet job ever again. This has massive implications for career management.
As, has been pointed out, topping your career on £55k is not much return for the investment you make in training. Its mad given the responsibility, instability, aptitude and work you have to put in.
I love my job and I love flying my A319 and I love earning what I earn. But there is no way on earth that I'm letting my Son follow in his Dads footsteps. Which is melancholic.
WWW
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Desk Pilot
It is risky comparing yourself to your mates. I too have mates all well ahead of me on the earning scale, and I admit until recently I thought I would catch them eventually. Now I think I will be spending a few years yet in the LHS of a T/P. However I still love my job, and on balance I still wouldn't swap. Give me a few years and I may change my mind but I doubt it.
I guess all we can hope is that, as more and more Oxford/FTE/CTC/Brookfield guys and gals bankrupt themselves in the pursuit of the holy grail that is the RHS of a jet, funding will dry up and things will pick up. That or, airlines will need more and more people and won't have time to line train guys with no experience who take 100+ sectors to get through to line check.
It is risky comparing yourself to your mates. I too have mates all well ahead of me on the earning scale, and I admit until recently I thought I would catch them eventually. Now I think I will be spending a few years yet in the LHS of a T/P. However I still love my job, and on balance I still wouldn't swap. Give me a few years and I may change my mind but I doubt it.
I guess all we can hope is that, as more and more Oxford/FTE/CTC/Brookfield guys and gals bankrupt themselves in the pursuit of the holy grail that is the RHS of a jet, funding will dry up and things will pick up. That or, airlines will need more and more people and won't have time to line train guys with no experience who take 100+ sectors to get through to line check.
WWW,
Yep, agreed.
The older guys ( like me
) can wax lyrical about the joys of flying but there's been a paradigm shift in the treatment and provisioning of pilots in the last decade; the new crop seem to coming into the industry with ( to me) unimaginable levels of debt yet confronted with increasingly fragile T&Cs and IMHO very little prospect of enjoying the levels of real pay enjoyed by my generation.
I'm another one actively dissuading his offspring from following in Father's footsteps - as you say, very sad.
Yep, agreed.
The older guys ( like me
) can wax lyrical about the joys of flying but there's been a paradigm shift in the treatment and provisioning of pilots in the last decade; the new crop seem to coming into the industry with ( to me) unimaginable levels of debt yet confronted with increasingly fragile T&Cs and IMHO very little prospect of enjoying the levels of real pay enjoyed by my generation.I'm another one actively dissuading his offspring from following in Father's footsteps - as you say, very sad.
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High Higher
Well done you, that's a lovely story and I'm sure you are very proud. I don't think you are just probing, I think you are provoking, and you are illiciting a response thereby. I don't see anyone here who has given up, and nobody is kicking each other either (except perhaps you). Those who have lost a job recently are understandably a little dispondent (to say the least, probably).
However we are being realistic about the current problems within our industry and the turn it seems to be taking with regard to experience and its current value. This is not a good thing so do not expect us to say good things about it. The question is how do we fight it, and examining it here is a good place as any to start a discussion on that.
WWW is right, there has been a marked change. I hope, given time, there'll be something of a change back, but perhaps I just don't have the same level of realism as him. Frankly I am not prepared to face that yet.
Meantime, I fail to see how you are helping this discussion, Mr High.
Well done you, that's a lovely story and I'm sure you are very proud. I don't think you are just probing, I think you are provoking, and you are illiciting a response thereby. I don't see anyone here who has given up, and nobody is kicking each other either (except perhaps you). Those who have lost a job recently are understandably a little dispondent (to say the least, probably).
However we are being realistic about the current problems within our industry and the turn it seems to be taking with regard to experience and its current value. This is not a good thing so do not expect us to say good things about it. The question is how do we fight it, and examining it here is a good place as any to start a discussion on that.
WWW is right, there has been a marked change. I hope, given time, there'll be something of a change back, but perhaps I just don't have the same level of realism as him. Frankly I am not prepared to face that yet.
Meantime, I fail to see how you are helping this discussion, Mr High.
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I agree whole heartedly with the sentiments being expressed here. The bank of Mummy and Daddy bridage have generated a situation where you are competing with their parents chequebook rather than their ability as pilots.
A good mate of mine recently told me a story. This mate has started his type rating in ryanair and his 23 year old class mate told him he was that glad of a job he would gladly work for nothing for a year(and he was serious). In my desparation to find a job this was never an option.Why, because parental finances weren't strong and i just couldn't rely on someone else to support me as a young adult.
This individual has a wealthy daddy who pays his loans, funds his flying, runs his car for him etc. I was particularly frustrated and curious by this. Frustrated because he was using his fortunate position to give his an edge. Curious as it made me wonder how this person will find life if the plan b of daddys cheque book wasnt there.
I have one question to ask though. There are alot of pilots with experience but unemployed with little hope of finding work for a while. The jobs that are there are now taken by some 22 year old willing to work for bugger all as daddy will fund them. Also there are employed pilots who are having there terms eroded for the same reason. If in 5 years time you found yourself sitting on an interview panel faced by a pilot who had choosen the pay to fly route, particularly pay to fly sponsored by mummy and daddy. Would it influence your decision on the candidate. Lets face it, the pay to fly candidate sponsored by mum and dad arent hard to spot. There ain't many banks today giving out 100k loans to people in there early to mid 20s!
A good mate of mine recently told me a story. This mate has started his type rating in ryanair and his 23 year old class mate told him he was that glad of a job he would gladly work for nothing for a year(and he was serious). In my desparation to find a job this was never an option.Why, because parental finances weren't strong and i just couldn't rely on someone else to support me as a young adult.
This individual has a wealthy daddy who pays his loans, funds his flying, runs his car for him etc. I was particularly frustrated and curious by this. Frustrated because he was using his fortunate position to give his an edge. Curious as it made me wonder how this person will find life if the plan b of daddys cheque book wasnt there.
I have one question to ask though. There are alot of pilots with experience but unemployed with little hope of finding work for a while. The jobs that are there are now taken by some 22 year old willing to work for bugger all as daddy will fund them. Also there are employed pilots who are having there terms eroded for the same reason. If in 5 years time you found yourself sitting on an interview panel faced by a pilot who had choosen the pay to fly route, particularly pay to fly sponsored by mummy and daddy. Would it influence your decision on the candidate. Lets face it, the pay to fly candidate sponsored by mum and dad arent hard to spot. There ain't many banks today giving out 100k loans to people in there early to mid 20s!
Pilots don't get to sit on interview panels anymore.
Do you have a license?
Do you have x£10,000 to give us?
Do you accept temporary contract work?
If YOU can say YES to the above questions then WE have a jet pilot job FOR YOU!!
Just call NOW on 0870 PROSTITUTEYOURSELFFORACAREERTHATYOUAREDESTROYING for details of where to send your cheque, postal order or direct debit form.
WWW
Do you have a license?
Do you have x£10,000 to give us?
Do you accept temporary contract work?
If YOU can say YES to the above questions then WE have a jet pilot job FOR YOU!!
Just call NOW on 0870 PROSTITUTEYOURSELFFORACAREERTHATYOUAREDESTROYING for details of where to send your cheque, postal order or direct debit form.
WWW
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I thought it was a fairly accurate post by www. What was stupid?
Pilots still do sim checks and are involved in selection......even at ryr!!
PS i do wonder in the futrre will a credit check and bank statement be required along with your licence
Pilots still do sim checks and are involved in selection......even at ryr!!
PS i do wonder in the futrre will a credit check and bank statement be required along with your licence
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With all due respect dick, its because selection comes down to whether or not they can pay for the type rating. Not so long ago it came down to showing suitable skill levels in the sim. Now all the risk is with the candidate, if they can't cut it on the course then they take the hit financially. Its them funding the rating. Even the selection process is a revenue source. I believe ryr charge almost £1000 to be interviewed and sim checked.
Ryanair must have one of the only profitable training departments in the industry!
PS I fail to see how its negative spool. Most of what he says is factual correct.
Ryanair must have one of the only profitable training departments in the industry!
PS I fail to see how its negative spool. Most of what he says is factual correct.
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Just because you have a big cheque book doesnt mean you will be given the opportunity to fly a jet.
Airline selection procedures should be about hiring the BEST possible candidate. I hope you agree with me there.
When you have someone willing to pay to sit in the seat, is the airline going to take the BEST candidate or the one that has met the regulatory minimum but willing to pay?
What do the airline passengers deserve?
