Bankruptcy - Does it affect employment?
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HN, It isn't really for you to tell me or anybody else who should opine and who shouldn't. You have just embarked on the process yourself according to your own account. It would be very interesting for you to come back in a year or two and tell people what your honest and real world experiences of this were.
Nobody should be driven to the edge of despair by their inability to service debts, particularly where cicumstances contrived to place them in that situation through no particular fault of their own. The process exists to ensure that doesn't happen. Nevertheless it is not the "Scot free" solution that some might suggest.
Airlines look for people who can make sensible judgments and show a mature attitude. They like to see examples of teamwork and leadership and self responsibility in the candidates they select for interview, and during the interview process itself. Bankruptcy is not regarded as a badge of success, even though it is clearly understood that for some people it has proved to be unavoidable. I have to say that I find your reasoning and justification for bankruptcy exceedingly poor and immature and seemingly without much evidence of self responsibility. I do take part in airline recuitment interviews and any hint of those qualities would result in a polite completion, followed by a "No" after the door had closed behind you.
Obviously I do not know you, or your circumstances beyond what you have stated here, or what your aspirations, ambitions or achievements actually are, therefore it is academic. However recruitment interviewers are, will and always have looked for solid evidence of the qualities I have described, and where evidence of previous failures or weakness exists, they would want to see how that adversity was overcome by the application of those positive character attributes. In other words, bankruptcy wouldn't in itself be an absolute hinderence, but this sort of attitude would:
I am grateful we have a legal remedy for people like yourself who have failed to manage their finances adequately for whatever reason, and I am also pleased that it provides a platform to take stock of a better future. However it seems to me that you would be rather more humble and grateful that you can avail yourself of such a process, without highlighting your repeated justifications for why it wasn't your fault but somebody elses, and why you think a perception of somebody elses weak behaviour is sufficient justification for your own. I think it is fairly self evident from your comments that you take little responsibility if you feel you can offload it to somebody else, but for perhaps a few others it would be a point to bear in mind for the future.
Still, as I said at the start it would be interesting to read your honest experiences once you emerge from the other side of this process, both good and bad.
Nobody should be driven to the edge of despair by their inability to service debts, particularly where cicumstances contrived to place them in that situation through no particular fault of their own. The process exists to ensure that doesn't happen. Nevertheless it is not the "Scot free" solution that some might suggest.
Airlines look for people who can make sensible judgments and show a mature attitude. They like to see examples of teamwork and leadership and self responsibility in the candidates they select for interview, and during the interview process itself. Bankruptcy is not regarded as a badge of success, even though it is clearly understood that for some people it has proved to be unavoidable. I have to say that I find your reasoning and justification for bankruptcy exceedingly poor and immature and seemingly without much evidence of self responsibility. I do take part in airline recuitment interviews and any hint of those qualities would result in a polite completion, followed by a "No" after the door had closed behind you.
Obviously I do not know you, or your circumstances beyond what you have stated here, or what your aspirations, ambitions or achievements actually are, therefore it is academic. However recruitment interviewers are, will and always have looked for solid evidence of the qualities I have described, and where evidence of previous failures or weakness exists, they would want to see how that adversity was overcome by the application of those positive character attributes. In other words, bankruptcy wouldn't in itself be an absolute hinderence, but this sort of attitude would:
i also have the privelege of not having to work for an airline
So far it has been the best decision i have ever made and although i am currently being pursued by the banks it has been remarkably easy to fob off the debt collectors while i am waiting to become self-employed in my flying job in order to reduce the amount that can be taken from me in bankruptcy.
It is of course the tax payer who will be picking up the tab for my unpaid borrowings and that of the banking losses. It doesn't make it right but why should one party suffer when the other half have been bailed out?
It's nowadays a just part of the game.
The taxpayer and consumer are almost one in the same- fuel duty, VAT etc. I could no longer justify going hungry and having no quality of life when the banks got bailed out and these are my individual reasons. I just feel this is a case of double standards.
so if the banks won't take responsibility for reckless lending should people take responsibility for irresponsible borrowing?
Still, as I said at the start it would be interesting to read your honest experiences once you emerge from the other side of this process, both good and bad.
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Personally, I think it's a bit of self indulgent grandstanding because I just don't think banks were or are making £80-100K unsecured loans to young asset-less Wannabes unless they had a parental guarantee and mum and dad's house as security. Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn't mum and dad still have to honour their contractual obligations to the bank even if junior decides, scratch that, intentionally plans from the outset, to take the WWW exit plan to financial bliss?
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and they offered to CTC and Oxford cadets for the simple reason that they were a good financial risk given the current market conditions at the time and the ability of these companies to place successful cadets with airlines. That is no longer the situation and the banks adjusted their lending accordingly.
Beazlebub, an excellent post but sadly I think it will fly right over the heads of most......but let's hope not!
Beazlebub, an excellent post but sadly I think it will fly right over the heads of most......but let's hope not!
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Bealzebub,
I never said you should not have an opinion, i stated that i felt you have not contributed anything worthwhile.
It is of course not a 'scot free' solution to a problem and i don't think anyone needs reminded of this as you have already listed the consequences for us without qualifying the information you have provided. Others have made worthwhile contributions about how my situation is different to that of others with assets or equity.
Fortunately for me i don't need to impress someone like yourself as to whether my motives and handling of the situation were to your satisfaction.
First quote- this is the opinion of many of my peers who are employed in the industry and is verbatim, not my words!
Fourth quote- not made by me and you are insinuating it was by including it amongst other things i did say!
I fully accept full responsibility that i made a big mistake by using further credit to meet my already stretched financial commitments and this is why i am warning other people of why it happened to me. I stopped making my usual, full and on time payments 18 months ago so i am already quite far down the line in this process and i am illustrating for others that it is a long and drawn out process but it goes to show that nothing has happened to me by not making payments for 18 months which may help alleviate the stress for someone else reading this in the knowledge that they probably don't need to worry about having the door kicked in 48h after they decide they can't afford to make a repayment. I will be made bankrupt within the next month and apart from being able to commentate on the formal proceedings i already suffer the consequences of not being able to obtain any more credit.
So if my reasoning and judgement regarding my course of action is poor and lacks self responsibility would you please tell me how i should have played it???
You are again scaremongering by implying that by having been made bankrupt it will be held against you if someone like yourself is sitting on the other side of a desk during an interview unless you can impress someone like yourself that you did it to to their satisfaction- autocratic tendencies???
I put it to you that you take offence to the fact i have picked you up on a lot of what you have said and this is something interviewers would hold against someone who wanted to be part of a team piloting an aircraft!
I never said you should not have an opinion, i stated that i felt you have not contributed anything worthwhile.
It is of course not a 'scot free' solution to a problem and i don't think anyone needs reminded of this as you have already listed the consequences for us without qualifying the information you have provided. Others have made worthwhile contributions about how my situation is different to that of others with assets or equity.
Fortunately for me i don't need to impress someone like yourself as to whether my motives and handling of the situation were to your satisfaction.
First quote- this is the opinion of many of my peers who are employed in the industry and is verbatim, not my words!
Fourth quote- not made by me and you are insinuating it was by including it amongst other things i did say!
I fully accept full responsibility that i made a big mistake by using further credit to meet my already stretched financial commitments and this is why i am warning other people of why it happened to me. I stopped making my usual, full and on time payments 18 months ago so i am already quite far down the line in this process and i am illustrating for others that it is a long and drawn out process but it goes to show that nothing has happened to me by not making payments for 18 months which may help alleviate the stress for someone else reading this in the knowledge that they probably don't need to worry about having the door kicked in 48h after they decide they can't afford to make a repayment. I will be made bankrupt within the next month and apart from being able to commentate on the formal proceedings i already suffer the consequences of not being able to obtain any more credit.
So if my reasoning and judgement regarding my course of action is poor and lacks self responsibility would you please tell me how i should have played it???
You are again scaremongering by implying that by having been made bankrupt it will be held against you if someone like yourself is sitting on the other side of a desk during an interview unless you can impress someone like yourself that you did it to to their satisfaction- autocratic tendencies???
I put it to you that you take offence to the fact i have picked you up on a lot of what you have said and this is something interviewers would hold against someone who wanted to be part of a team piloting an aircraft!
Last edited by HN1708; 26th Sep 2009 at 22:03.
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I've been reading this thread with interest as I find myself in exactly the situation described by WWW.
I have c. £80,000 debt, unsecured, from flight training.
I have no significant assets.
The bank are being reasonable and have deferred loan repayments for a year so far, but that doesn't alter the fact that the debt is essentially impossible to repay.
I've done a fair bit of research, and will be getting professional advice, but if anyone can answer a couple of aviation-specific questions regarding bankruptcy I'd be grateful.
- Can I be asked if I am / have been bankrupt in an interview?
- Could it affect my ability to get a flying job as a contract pilot?
- Can it affect my ability to work in the US in the future? I have heard that it may, and that it might be a problem if one day I ended up possibly operating into the US.
- Are there any other aviation-related consequences that a standard debt adviser wouldn't be aware of?
Cheers for any help...
I have c. £80,000 debt, unsecured, from flight training.
I have no significant assets.
The bank are being reasonable and have deferred loan repayments for a year so far, but that doesn't alter the fact that the debt is essentially impossible to repay.
I've done a fair bit of research, and will be getting professional advice, but if anyone can answer a couple of aviation-specific questions regarding bankruptcy I'd be grateful.
- Can I be asked if I am / have been bankrupt in an interview?
- Could it affect my ability to get a flying job as a contract pilot?
- Can it affect my ability to work in the US in the future? I have heard that it may, and that it might be a problem if one day I ended up possibly operating into the US.
- Are there any other aviation-related consequences that a standard debt adviser wouldn't be aware of?
Cheers for any help...
I think they can ask you at interview though it would be a little unusual for them to do so. I imagine it would be fairly easy to turn it into a positive point about managing difficult circumstances/handling problems etc.
It has no impact on your ability to hold a license or airside pass.
I don't know about the US but once a bnakruptcy has been discharged by a court then its all over in all other jurisdictions. As evidenced here:
Britain Is 'Bankruptcy Tourism' Hotspot
Basically people with massive debts come from the EU to live in Britain, go bankrupt here, bankruptcy lasts just 2 years (thanks, New Labour) instead of 7 years in lots of other countries. Then return home with their debts washed away and start all over again. As long as British court has ruled under British law then the debts are gone and you're free to return home debt free.
I suspect there will be a great many people who owe similar amounts who will not find adequate employment despite being in various pools in the coming winters. I imagine Bankruptcy Judges will be banging their gavels almost as fast as HSBC were writing out the loans...
WWW
It has no impact on your ability to hold a license or airside pass.
I don't know about the US but once a bnakruptcy has been discharged by a court then its all over in all other jurisdictions. As evidenced here:
Britain Is 'Bankruptcy Tourism' Hotspot
Basically people with massive debts come from the EU to live in Britain, go bankrupt here, bankruptcy lasts just 2 years (thanks, New Labour) instead of 7 years in lots of other countries. Then return home with their debts washed away and start all over again. As long as British court has ruled under British law then the debts are gone and you're free to return home debt free.
I suspect there will be a great many people who owe similar amounts who will not find adequate employment despite being in various pools in the coming winters. I imagine Bankruptcy Judges will be banging their gavels almost as fast as HSBC were writing out the loans...
WWW
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Thanks - from what I've found out so far, you can't be a company director (e.g. for contracting as a ltd. co.) while you're bankrupt, but you can once you're discharged. As standard, assuming you haven't been fraudulent you're discharged after 12 months, and can apply for early discharge which would shorten this.
Lots of info here: Publications and Guidance Material Issued by The Insolvency Service
When I find out more I'll post it here.
Lots of info here: Publications and Guidance Material Issued by The Insolvency Service
When I find out more I'll post it here.
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EZYRamper,
You are correct that the student did not have to secure the loan if he got a place on CTC Wings, but I suspect CTC or the partner airline might have been on the hook for the bond or a portion of it in some way (HSBC pulled out and BBVA do secured loans only for CTC now). CTC's explanation of the financial side of Wings is so cryptic and convoluted that one can't really tell what the full financial picture is for Wings. Hopefully it is clearer to those who get on it.
You are correct that the student did not have to secure the loan if he got a place on CTC Wings, but I suspect CTC or the partner airline might have been on the hook for the bond or a portion of it in some way (HSBC pulled out and BBVA do secured loans only for CTC now). CTC's explanation of the financial side of Wings is so cryptic and convoluted that one can't really tell what the full financial picture is for Wings. Hopefully it is clearer to those who get on it.
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CTC's explanation of the financial side of Wings is so cryptic and convoluted that one can't really tell what the full financial picture is for Wings.
Hopefully it is clearer to those who get on it.
Interesting read all of this and think that it was only a matter of time that this topic would come up on here. The thing is HSBC WILL be very flexible with loan repayments and enable deferrals. At the end of the day, they know the score if they start pestering for payments - thats just more evidence for a customer to show to the judge when filing bankruptcy!
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As a current airline pilot and a discharged bankrupt I can probably contribute quite a bit here. Here is my story. Prior to jumping in boots and all with my training about five years ago I worked out a financial plan. I figured that by using about £10,000 of my personal saving and an intricate series of 0% APR balance transfers on credit cards I could pay for my training and pay the loan back too. This was based on spending time working as an instructor and finding a reasonable 25k(ish) turboprop job within a couple of years of finishing training. If this did not work out then I knew that with unsecured debt, bankruptcy would be a severe but sensible way out of decades of debt misery. Having that fall back plan was a good move with retrospect.
Just about anything that could go wrong did go wrong and I didn't budget for the dreaded SSTR that was not around when I started training. By January 2007 I found myself unemployed, with 50k of unsecured credit card debt and due to my worsening situation my lines of credit had dried up and the walls were closing in on me. Going bankrupt was my only real option as within a few months my cashflow situation would have made things impossible.
I filled in various forms and submitted them to the insolvency service. Then I booked a date with the local court to declare myself bankrupt a few weeks later. Going bankrupt entailed several hundred pounds of court fees which I obtained by one last cash advance “loan” from the credit cards. This was my first time in court and it was scary. The forms were examined in a side office and the payment was taken. I waited to be called in to see the judge which was terrifying. The court itself was quite large and it was just me and her. She asked me to confirm my circumstances and if I understood what I was doing and then declared me bankrupt.
A few days later the Official Receiver (OR), called to discuss my case. I was examined in great detail over an hour long phone call to determine if I had been “reckless” in my financial undertakings. The OR determined that my intentions had been honorable and I would not be given a Bankruptcy Discharge Order which could have extended my period of bankruptcy. I was told that I could keep my £1500 car as I needed it to find employment. It's often said that you can't get a bank account after bankruptcy; nonsense! I opened up a basic account with the Nat West prior to going bust and this came with a cash card but no overdraft. The OR kept this account open in order to have my Job Seekers paid in. My creditors were informed by the OR and very few called me. They have no legal right to collect the debt themselves as this is the job of the OR.
The real problem was obtaining work and the implications. If, within the one year period of bankruptcy you obtain a job then you will have an Income Payment Order (IPO) attached to you for three years. Get that nice 50k jet job and 75% of your disposable income can be given to your creditors. Obviously this is a BIG issue that has not been mentioned here already. I got around it by finding a job abroad for most of 2007. This avoids the dreaded IPO and I wasn't earning big anyway.
By 2008, I obtained an airline job. There were no questions at the interview about this and my employer does not know and would not give a damn anyway. I've held five airport passes over the years and the bankruptcy has not been an issue here. By early 2008 my bankruptcy had been discharged, but there are still major implications. It is still hard to get mainstream credit. The record of the bankruptcy remains for five years after bankruptcy. Until then getting a mortgage will be difficult though it is possible after a few years. Obtaining a credit card is tricky too. Try hiring a car or going on holiday abroad without one. I did get one earlier this year with a 50% APR so of course I pay it all off every time and my credit rating has improved to the point where I can obtain a normal credit card again. Company credit cards by the way are no problem, even if you are bankrupt as it is the company that is responsible for paying them.
Bankruptcy was a good option for me but it is not a game and needs to be taken seriously. However, if you are 80k in debt with no sensible income and have unsecured loans it is the way to go.
Just about anything that could go wrong did go wrong and I didn't budget for the dreaded SSTR that was not around when I started training. By January 2007 I found myself unemployed, with 50k of unsecured credit card debt and due to my worsening situation my lines of credit had dried up and the walls were closing in on me. Going bankrupt was my only real option as within a few months my cashflow situation would have made things impossible.
I filled in various forms and submitted them to the insolvency service. Then I booked a date with the local court to declare myself bankrupt a few weeks later. Going bankrupt entailed several hundred pounds of court fees which I obtained by one last cash advance “loan” from the credit cards. This was my first time in court and it was scary. The forms were examined in a side office and the payment was taken. I waited to be called in to see the judge which was terrifying. The court itself was quite large and it was just me and her. She asked me to confirm my circumstances and if I understood what I was doing and then declared me bankrupt.
A few days later the Official Receiver (OR), called to discuss my case. I was examined in great detail over an hour long phone call to determine if I had been “reckless” in my financial undertakings. The OR determined that my intentions had been honorable and I would not be given a Bankruptcy Discharge Order which could have extended my period of bankruptcy. I was told that I could keep my £1500 car as I needed it to find employment. It's often said that you can't get a bank account after bankruptcy; nonsense! I opened up a basic account with the Nat West prior to going bust and this came with a cash card but no overdraft. The OR kept this account open in order to have my Job Seekers paid in. My creditors were informed by the OR and very few called me. They have no legal right to collect the debt themselves as this is the job of the OR.
The real problem was obtaining work and the implications. If, within the one year period of bankruptcy you obtain a job then you will have an Income Payment Order (IPO) attached to you for three years. Get that nice 50k jet job and 75% of your disposable income can be given to your creditors. Obviously this is a BIG issue that has not been mentioned here already. I got around it by finding a job abroad for most of 2007. This avoids the dreaded IPO and I wasn't earning big anyway.
By 2008, I obtained an airline job. There were no questions at the interview about this and my employer does not know and would not give a damn anyway. I've held five airport passes over the years and the bankruptcy has not been an issue here. By early 2008 my bankruptcy had been discharged, but there are still major implications. It is still hard to get mainstream credit. The record of the bankruptcy remains for five years after bankruptcy. Until then getting a mortgage will be difficult though it is possible after a few years. Obtaining a credit card is tricky too. Try hiring a car or going on holiday abroad without one. I did get one earlier this year with a 50% APR so of course I pay it all off every time and my credit rating has improved to the point where I can obtain a normal credit card again. Company credit cards by the way are no problem, even if you are bankrupt as it is the company that is responsible for paying them.
Bankruptcy was a good option for me but it is not a game and needs to be taken seriously. However, if you are 80k in debt with no sensible income and have unsecured loans it is the way to go.
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Originally Posted by Fair weather Flyer
Going bankrupt entailed several hundred pounds of court fees which I obtained by one last cash advance “loan” from the credit cards.
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Fair weather.... So, can you afford to pay your creditors now? If so..then do it
Honourable or what.
PS: Still think www is a ****
Ye, wee man, know I'm barred and know that know one will see this, however,,,you won't see me in EM car park either
YOU ****.
Honourable or what.PS: Still think www is a ****
Ye, wee man, know I'm barred and know that know one will see this, however,,,you won't see me in EM car park either
YOU ****.
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Weather flyer,
this is a great story and I hope that you will succeed in your future ways and as we all no despite having plans, things can go wrong.
I had the case that i had the employment contract in my hand, passed the assessment and at the end, once the financial crisis hit, got laid off. there I was with my debts which did include my family...
I had the chance to find a few friends who gave me a loan...the airline would not stand straight as there is a mentioning in the contract about bankrupcy.
But anyway, I got some friend which could lend me a bit of cash for me to go look for some time in the air so that I could repay the loan of my family. At that time my father could not pay back the loan he had taken for me and the bank was about to take the house from him.
All because of me. I did not feel to well in those times. And I had learned as WF did, that in life situations happen, where everything that can go wrong simply does.
I am still in the application process and have been spending 1 year simply looking around and applying. I bet some here have tried longer. But I found my luck with a company that offers employment with and without type rating ...but with a intensive selection. Well, most people think, oh, you declaire that you do not have money and start searching for money. guys, as WF said, there are things you need when you want to find a job in this industry. At least you will need that little bit of cash which will take you there and give you the option to find out what your chances are.
Today pilots are nothing special for banks anymore. Unless you are with a tinny bank...you will experience that saying you are a pilot makes you a risk. I remeber when i tried to get the loan without any security...guys in the environment today...despite having no big issues financially...they did not take the risk. So my advise, bankrupt means a new beginning. Be more clever, think in worrst case szenarios and calculate your risk as you will need all your options when the case comes.
p.s. I had a interview as well, where they asked me how my financial standing is. It was somehow related to how do i plan and how do I manage my life.
Was strange but understandable...i mean, i did not have to answer if I did not want to.
good luck to everyone.
m737
this is a great story and I hope that you will succeed in your future ways and as we all no despite having plans, things can go wrong.
I had the case that i had the employment contract in my hand, passed the assessment and at the end, once the financial crisis hit, got laid off. there I was with my debts which did include my family...
I had the chance to find a few friends who gave me a loan...the airline would not stand straight as there is a mentioning in the contract about bankrupcy.
But anyway, I got some friend which could lend me a bit of cash for me to go look for some time in the air so that I could repay the loan of my family. At that time my father could not pay back the loan he had taken for me and the bank was about to take the house from him.
All because of me. I did not feel to well in those times. And I had learned as WF did, that in life situations happen, where everything that can go wrong simply does.
I am still in the application process and have been spending 1 year simply looking around and applying. I bet some here have tried longer. But I found my luck with a company that offers employment with and without type rating ...but with a intensive selection. Well, most people think, oh, you declaire that you do not have money and start searching for money. guys, as WF said, there are things you need when you want to find a job in this industry. At least you will need that little bit of cash which will take you there and give you the option to find out what your chances are.
Today pilots are nothing special for banks anymore. Unless you are with a tinny bank...you will experience that saying you are a pilot makes you a risk. I remeber when i tried to get the loan without any security...guys in the environment today...despite having no big issues financially...they did not take the risk. So my advise, bankrupt means a new beginning. Be more clever, think in worrst case szenarios and calculate your risk as you will need all your options when the case comes.
p.s. I had a interview as well, where they asked me how my financial standing is. It was somehow related to how do i plan and how do I manage my life.
Was strange but understandable...i mean, i did not have to answer if I did not want to.
good luck to everyone.
m737
