How Do I Pay For Atpl!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Midlands
Age: 50
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Some of the posters here give me hope in human kind again. The majority of (particularly young) posters on the wannabe forums make me wince with pain.
Most of this will be readily apparent to those approaching their 40's or beyond, however here goes. In days gone by people became pilots by being hangar rats, cleaning aircraft, sweeping hangars, joining the forces, saving up desperately for years, seeking alternative better paid employment. If you wanted something and weren't rich your only option was to work towards it. Read the pilot biographies in the magazines folks! How many of the pilots often featured walked into a bank and borrowed their way into the business? None, they all worked damned hard for it. It's only 20 years ago that you couldn't get a mortgage unless you had saved with that building society for years and had proven yourselves a safe and responsible person with the means to pay a 25 year secured loan on a house!
As a junior officer in the Navy some 15 years ago, I still had to have a meeting with my bank manager to get an unsecured loan for a motorcycle! And yes the fine detail of my finances were poured over.
There is now a significant section of the population who never saw the last recession, and for whom the primary means of purchasing goods is by credit. Sofa, car, bed, furniture, ATPL, mobile phone contracts, credit cards, overdrafts, buy now pay later and of far more concern, worry about payment later.
Look at the criticism Governments worldwide and the banking community have taken for the toxic debts and the idea of borrowing their way out of a recession. As it stands, the job market is appalling and aviation is no different.
With all these things considered why on earth do people want to borrow vast sums of money to run towards the edge of the cliff with nothing more than hope to stop a massive fall! I have so far taken 15 years to get to the stage of a CPL course. I am debt free and in no rush. However why do people want to rush through life experience?
Airline flying these days is not the glamorous lifestyle it once was and once the gloss has worn of the new toy of flying an airliner after the first few years it won't get more exciting for the remaining 30-35 years! Airlines and passengers don't want you to do exciting flying, they want safe, comfortable and on schedule flying. Just how exciting do people think flying a big bus down airways is? What's wrong with getting a little life experience these days?
My advice is simple, take your time. There are still opportunities to get some flying for not a lot. Gapan, the armed forces and the Air League do sponsorships and flying scholarships. The armed forces recruit almost permanantly and not just for pilots. Non commisioned aircrew gain valuable experience and get very well paid for it! Get a ppl and enjoy the flying for a bit, fly gliders, tow gliders on a PPL, get involved in para dropping. Enjoy life a little, but work through it and save hard, because reckless borrowing on the back of the assurances and sales patter of integrated schools is fraught with more danger than holding a 100m race in a minefield at the moment.
Rant over folks,
Regards, Obs
Most of this will be readily apparent to those approaching their 40's or beyond, however here goes. In days gone by people became pilots by being hangar rats, cleaning aircraft, sweeping hangars, joining the forces, saving up desperately for years, seeking alternative better paid employment. If you wanted something and weren't rich your only option was to work towards it. Read the pilot biographies in the magazines folks! How many of the pilots often featured walked into a bank and borrowed their way into the business? None, they all worked damned hard for it. It's only 20 years ago that you couldn't get a mortgage unless you had saved with that building society for years and had proven yourselves a safe and responsible person with the means to pay a 25 year secured loan on a house!
As a junior officer in the Navy some 15 years ago, I still had to have a meeting with my bank manager to get an unsecured loan for a motorcycle! And yes the fine detail of my finances were poured over.
There is now a significant section of the population who never saw the last recession, and for whom the primary means of purchasing goods is by credit. Sofa, car, bed, furniture, ATPL, mobile phone contracts, credit cards, overdrafts, buy now pay later and of far more concern, worry about payment later.
Look at the criticism Governments worldwide and the banking community have taken for the toxic debts and the idea of borrowing their way out of a recession. As it stands, the job market is appalling and aviation is no different.
With all these things considered why on earth do people want to borrow vast sums of money to run towards the edge of the cliff with nothing more than hope to stop a massive fall! I have so far taken 15 years to get to the stage of a CPL course. I am debt free and in no rush. However why do people want to rush through life experience?
Airline flying these days is not the glamorous lifestyle it once was and once the gloss has worn of the new toy of flying an airliner after the first few years it won't get more exciting for the remaining 30-35 years! Airlines and passengers don't want you to do exciting flying, they want safe, comfortable and on schedule flying. Just how exciting do people think flying a big bus down airways is? What's wrong with getting a little life experience these days?
My advice is simple, take your time. There are still opportunities to get some flying for not a lot. Gapan, the armed forces and the Air League do sponsorships and flying scholarships. The armed forces recruit almost permanantly and not just for pilots. Non commisioned aircrew gain valuable experience and get very well paid for it! Get a ppl and enjoy the flying for a bit, fly gliders, tow gliders on a PPL, get involved in para dropping. Enjoy life a little, but work through it and save hard, because reckless borrowing on the back of the assurances and sales patter of integrated schools is fraught with more danger than holding a 100m race in a minefield at the moment.
Rant over folks,
Regards, Obs
Supercharged PPRuNer
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Obs Cop - very, very well said. I couldn't have put it better myself.
One of my friends has a job that many younger wannabes would kill for - flying an airbus for BA. Fortunately he has the benefit (and perspective) of a previous career outside aviation, but many of his colleagues do not. They joined as fresh-faced young cadets, with no life experience behind them, and by their mid-thirties many are bored and slightly bitter. They have never experienced life in the real world outside aviation, and have that feeling you get when you have spent too long in the same job - that the grass must be greener somewhere else. The trouble is, it aint. And where do you go from BA? Let alone with 10-15 years' seniority?
If you start with an airline aged 20, you have 45 years of flying in front of you. That's an awful lot of earlies, crosswords and dodgy crew food to look forward to. Let's say you spend five years as a short-haul FO, then another five on long-haul. Then get a short-haul command. After another 5 years you're high enough up the seniority list to get command of a 747/A380. Congratulations, you're now less than halfway through your career. Another 25 years of sitting in the cruise - nice. "Ahh," you say, "If I'm bored I could always change jobs." With 20 years seniority at the World's favourite? Not likely.
What I'm trying to say is that rushing to join this industry in your early twenties isn't always the great idea it seems at the time. You'll take on a mountain of unnecessary debt and pass up the opportunity to experience other walks of life. A broad range of work and life experience will serve you well in any career - especially this one - but by the time you appreciate that, you'll be halfway up a seniority list and it'll be too late to do anything about it.
Regards from a 37 year-old old fart who sounds more like his dad every day.
One of my friends has a job that many younger wannabes would kill for - flying an airbus for BA. Fortunately he has the benefit (and perspective) of a previous career outside aviation, but many of his colleagues do not. They joined as fresh-faced young cadets, with no life experience behind them, and by their mid-thirties many are bored and slightly bitter. They have never experienced life in the real world outside aviation, and have that feeling you get when you have spent too long in the same job - that the grass must be greener somewhere else. The trouble is, it aint. And where do you go from BA? Let alone with 10-15 years' seniority?
If you start with an airline aged 20, you have 45 years of flying in front of you. That's an awful lot of earlies, crosswords and dodgy crew food to look forward to. Let's say you spend five years as a short-haul FO, then another five on long-haul. Then get a short-haul command. After another 5 years you're high enough up the seniority list to get command of a 747/A380. Congratulations, you're now less than halfway through your career. Another 25 years of sitting in the cruise - nice. "Ahh," you say, "If I'm bored I could always change jobs." With 20 years seniority at the World's favourite? Not likely.
What I'm trying to say is that rushing to join this industry in your early twenties isn't always the great idea it seems at the time. You'll take on a mountain of unnecessary debt and pass up the opportunity to experience other walks of life. A broad range of work and life experience will serve you well in any career - especially this one - but by the time you appreciate that, you'll be halfway up a seniority list and it'll be too late to do anything about it.
Regards from a 37 year-old old fart who sounds more like his dad every day.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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UAV689
Ive just come back from my PRTC (Pre Recruit Training Course) at Halton where i got my boots etc and got alot of briefings i saw a poster about the gliding school. What im going to do is concentrate on getting better (injured my knee a few days ago and it went badly yesterday doing a PT session so off to the doctors on monday) they said turn up at basic even if its not right and atleast im then started and theyll just backflight me due to injury and get me all the help i need. Hopefully after i pass out then ill look into what options are open with regards to subsidised flying etc but right now im concetrating on getting my knee back on track and getting through my basic training.
tropicalfridge
After ive done my 9 weeks basic and then 5 months at Cosford, on my dream sheet im going to be asking for Leeming, Waddington or Conningsby and look into what flying is available. My intention is to try and switch to pilot after 4 years of training (and studying!) and see where that takes me if not a pilot then maybe Nav or WSOP but i do have a desire to go as high as i can and really want to get a comission but we will see how it goes as you can never guarantee something will happen or work out the way we want it to (ive learnt this from past experiences)
Ive just come back from my PRTC (Pre Recruit Training Course) at Halton where i got my boots etc and got alot of briefings i saw a poster about the gliding school. What im going to do is concentrate on getting better (injured my knee a few days ago and it went badly yesterday doing a PT session so off to the doctors on monday) they said turn up at basic even if its not right and atleast im then started and theyll just backflight me due to injury and get me all the help i need. Hopefully after i pass out then ill look into what options are open with regards to subsidised flying etc but right now im concetrating on getting my knee back on track and getting through my basic training.
tropicalfridge
After ive done my 9 weeks basic and then 5 months at Cosford, on my dream sheet im going to be asking for Leeming, Waddington or Conningsby and look into what flying is available. My intention is to try and switch to pilot after 4 years of training (and studying!) and see where that takes me if not a pilot then maybe Nav or WSOP but i do have a desire to go as high as i can and really want to get a comission but we will see how it goes as you can never guarantee something will happen or work out the way we want it to (ive learnt this from past experiences)
Join Date: May 2003
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G SXTY thanks for your kind words,
It has to be said, both your inspiring post and that of "Pilot Pete" should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting to get involved in aviation.
Two things are guaranteed to make life awkward and relationships hard, the first is shift work and the second is seperation. I'm fortunate that I already do the shifts and have the most understanding and supportive wife in the world.
I can guarantee she would not be half as supportive if I had borrowed vast sums of money however
After a total of 15 years in military aviation and front line policing, including police firearms, I'm bored of excitement
I have enough memories and war stories to fill a decent book, and the idea of ploughing the airways in a turboprop will not leave any voids or yearnings unfulfilled.
Oh and G SXTY, I'm hot on your heals at 35 so I'm not over the hill yet then
Obs
It has to be said, both your inspiring post and that of "Pilot Pete" should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting to get involved in aviation.
Two things are guaranteed to make life awkward and relationships hard, the first is shift work and the second is seperation. I'm fortunate that I already do the shifts and have the most understanding and supportive wife in the world.
I can guarantee she would not be half as supportive if I had borrowed vast sums of money however
After a total of 15 years in military aviation and front line policing, including police firearms, I'm bored of excitement
I have enough memories and war stories to fill a decent book, and the idea of ploughing the airways in a turboprop will not leave any voids or yearnings unfulfilled.
Oh and G SXTY, I'm hot on your heals at 35 so I'm not over the hill yet then
Obs
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Chopper,
Out of interest...
Since you're now in the position I'm hoping to be in the next couple of years, if given the option would you have joined the police and kept aviation as a hobby or are you pleased with the airiline job and wouldn't go back?
Out of interest...
Since you're now in the position I'm hoping to be in the next couple of years, if given the option would you have joined the police and kept aviation as a hobby or are you pleased with the airiline job and wouldn't go back?
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Cheers mate.
I'm hoping to join the police full time in Sept for a couple of years which, I hope, will give me the funding to get my flying done without borrowing too much money. Plus the police (from what I have been doing so far as an SPC) has been fantastic.
Thanks for the reply.
I'm hoping to join the police full time in Sept for a couple of years which, I hope, will give me the funding to get my flying done without borrowing too much money. Plus the police (from what I have been doing so far as an SPC) has been fantastic.
Thanks for the reply.
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When I was a youngster the RAF was the only thing I wanted to do, however I never went ahead with it when I turned 17 due to family pressure. Do I regret it? Yeh kind of.
Still got the option of joining the RAF or RN as well as the Police or do something with my degree. Just not sure what to go for.
Still got the option of joining the RAF or RN as well as the Police or do something with my degree. Just not sure what to go for.
