Some unity on paying for Type Ratings and line training?
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Some unity on paying for Type Ratings and line training?
Just to throw an idea out there...
It would seem that for the average newly qual wannabe, it is very difficult to pay attention to those who say 'don't pay for type rating/ line training' when you are under the impression that there are many many others who are willing to pay. In other words, you feel isolated and think that if you don't pay, someone else will, so you have to pay or you will lose out and never get a job.
Perhaps the sum total of this is hundreds of newbies all thinking that the rest are paying so they are missing out = people paying for TR's and line training.
Has there ever been any sort of unofficial 'union' for newly quals e.g. some sort of organisation that could send out a unified message to newly quals and remove that feeling of isolation/ desperation?! Some sort of co-ordination against applying for such schemes?
This is working on the basis that no-one actually wants to pay for a TR and work for free but those that are able feel forced to by the lack of other ways in.
Is it naive to believe that if an airline launches a pay to fly scheme and no one applies then these schemes might die out?
Or would there always be a supply of those willing to pay, whether from abroad, wealthy family etc, that will always scupper such an idea?
Just an attempt at a constructive approach as opposed to the usual barrage of abuse thrown at newbies, try not to bite.
It would seem that for the average newly qual wannabe, it is very difficult to pay attention to those who say 'don't pay for type rating/ line training' when you are under the impression that there are many many others who are willing to pay. In other words, you feel isolated and think that if you don't pay, someone else will, so you have to pay or you will lose out and never get a job.
Perhaps the sum total of this is hundreds of newbies all thinking that the rest are paying so they are missing out = people paying for TR's and line training.
Has there ever been any sort of unofficial 'union' for newly quals e.g. some sort of organisation that could send out a unified message to newly quals and remove that feeling of isolation/ desperation?! Some sort of co-ordination against applying for such schemes?
This is working on the basis that no-one actually wants to pay for a TR and work for free but those that are able feel forced to by the lack of other ways in.
Is it naive to believe that if an airline launches a pay to fly scheme and no one applies then these schemes might die out?
Or would there always be a supply of those willing to pay, whether from abroad, wealthy family etc, that will always scupper such an idea?
Just an attempt at a constructive approach as opposed to the usual barrage of abuse thrown at newbies, try not to bite.
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Problem is that the only ones who care either already have a job
Or cant afford it. I disagree with it but cant blame people that have a few grand tied to the silver spoon hanging out there rear paying to live the dream.
I already have a job and a couple of thousand hours
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You can add me to the list of those who care but already has a job although I'm beginning to wonder why I bother.
I've been banging on for years about this becoming the norm and now it is. I'd love to think there'll come a time when the wannabees cry "Enough!" and keep their hands in their pockets but I think you'll wait a long time to see that. It seems to me that the least sympathy comes from those who paid their way in and don't seem to care about those who now follow.
I've been banging on for years about this becoming the norm and now it is. I'd love to think there'll come a time when the wannabees cry "Enough!" and keep their hands in their pockets but I think you'll wait a long time to see that. It seems to me that the least sympathy comes from those who paid their way in and don't seem to care about those who now follow.
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Adverse-bump,
I think you are stepping on the poster's point aren't you?
Yes, YOU have a job. Well done-have a medal. But the point is there are poor low hour cadets out there who don't and as the poster alluded to- they feel isolated and feel the need to get a TR themselves. And you call them idiots? What if after 2 years they still haven't realised their dream through no fault of their own - i.e not even one interview. Are they idiots for trying to get a foot on the ladder? Or should they wave a white flag and walk back to the stuffy office they left in order to accomplish a dream.
People percieve that the way to get jobs are via a TR, so everyone pays for a TR. How did it start? it's like the chicken and the egg.
The poster is right. I'd sign up for a level playing field so no cadet feels that to get ahead, they have to get a TR.
I have budgeted for a FI rating. But I can get nowhere near to a TR.
I think you are stepping on the poster's point aren't you?
Yes, YOU have a job. Well done-have a medal. But the point is there are poor low hour cadets out there who don't and as the poster alluded to- they feel isolated and feel the need to get a TR themselves. And you call them idiots? What if after 2 years they still haven't realised their dream through no fault of their own - i.e not even one interview. Are they idiots for trying to get a foot on the ladder? Or should they wave a white flag and walk back to the stuffy office they left in order to accomplish a dream.
People percieve that the way to get jobs are via a TR, so everyone pays for a TR. How did it start? it's like the chicken and the egg.
The poster is right. I'd sign up for a level playing field so no cadet feels that to get ahead, they have to get a TR.
I have budgeted for a FI rating. But I can get nowhere near to a TR.
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Maybe we can set a precedence....
Just like sex really. As long as guys are hard up and desperate enough they will hand over the cash without question .
I for one would sign up for the deal... the boycotting of paying for TR'S that is....
I for one would sign up for the deal... the boycotting of paying for TR'S that is....
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To continue with the anology above, instead of paying for it when hard up, or late, why not just cop off with the fat bird and get on with it instead of going round to the docks and getting rogered for money.
What it needs is BALPA to get involved. Are wannabes eligible to join BALPA? If they dont pay the fees then they may not fight their cause.
If FO's getting laid off to make room for the pay to fly crowd however then that is a diffferent matter.
I dont know if this is happening yet.
By the way could someone please explain the difference between a pay to fly scheme and something like CTC which gives you a 6 month placement on £1000 a month. (That you have paid for) If the £1000 comes out of your original £60,000 then what is the difference? This is not a dig at CTC. Im just struggling to find the difference.
If FO's getting laid off to make room for the pay to fly crowd however then that is a diffferent matter.
I dont know if this is happening yet.By the way could someone please explain the difference between a pay to fly scheme and something like CTC which gives you a 6 month placement on £1000 a month. (That you have paid for) If the £1000 comes out of your original £60,000 then what is the difference? This is not a dig at CTC. Im just struggling to find the difference.
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The pilots unions have always welcomed wannabes within their ranks and over the years there have been posts here on pprune reminding people of the ability to join as an associate member. This would give you access to the members areas of sites and give you some good gen on the industry as a whole. Unfortunately very few people join up as they see it as yet another cost even though it is such a pitifully small amount.
Read all about it here:-
BALPA - Membership
Read all about it here:-
BALPA - Membership
Educated Hillbilly
The unions have little interest in opposing self sponsored type rating schemes and while I would recommend union membership for certain reasons, it certainly will not help with regard to ending self sponsored type ratings. Infact both IPA and BALPA websites offer advice on undertaking self sponsored type ratings.
While I don't necesarily agree with self funded line training schemes, I will accept that everyones situation is different and you need to use whatever resources you have to get that first job. The fact remains paying for a rating for many can be economically more viable option than spending a year or two on instructors pay followed by a three or four year bond in a turbo prop job on a fairly meagre salary.
Adverse Bump, you say don't pay to fly, when I was a full time instructor I had to use savings and a credit card to support living expenses, the job did not pay enough to live on, as such it was costing me money to do the job (hence I was paying to fly) not to mention the enourmous pay cut I took to become a full time instructor. If I was still in my turbo prop job I would still be borrowing money to support my living expenses (especially as I have a family to support now)
If I wanted to get air taxi work I would need to go and pay to fly hours on a piston twin to meet the single pilot ops requirement, so ineffect is there any difference between someone hiring a twin to build hours to get air taxi work and someone paying for hours on a 737.
Philpaz, not eveyone was born with a silver spoon, some people actually have had sucessful careers and earned the money to fund training. The free market system that has allowed you to undertake self funded training for a CPL/IR has also spawned the SSTR.
While I don't necesarily agree with self funded line training schemes, I will accept that everyones situation is different and you need to use whatever resources you have to get that first job. The fact remains paying for a rating for many can be economically more viable option than spending a year or two on instructors pay followed by a three or four year bond in a turbo prop job on a fairly meagre salary.
Adverse Bump, you say don't pay to fly, when I was a full time instructor I had to use savings and a credit card to support living expenses, the job did not pay enough to live on, as such it was costing me money to do the job (hence I was paying to fly) not to mention the enourmous pay cut I took to become a full time instructor. If I was still in my turbo prop job I would still be borrowing money to support my living expenses (especially as I have a family to support now)
If I wanted to get air taxi work I would need to go and pay to fly hours on a piston twin to meet the single pilot ops requirement, so ineffect is there any difference between someone hiring a twin to build hours to get air taxi work and someone paying for hours on a 737.
Philpaz, not eveyone was born with a silver spoon, some people actually have had sucessful careers and earned the money to fund training. The free market system that has allowed you to undertake self funded training for a CPL/IR has also spawned the SSTR.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 27th Feb 2009 at 18:35.
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With regards to the difference between CTC and pay to fly, if you go back a year then it would seem there was a big difference; with CTC you were pretty much guaranteed a full time job after the 6 months so it can perhaps be described as a sponsorship scheme as such, or maybe 'pay to train, be paid to fly' .
Now however, if the line training only lasts 6 months, then yes it appears it is effectively pay to fly; however, it has been argued that there aren't many places where you can get a fully accomodated fATPL, MCC, Advanced handling, TR and 6 months line training for £47500 (bond minus funds returned)?? Or maybe you can, I haven't done enough research to have a valid opinion on that, am working on the basis that Ryanair for example demand £20,000 for TR alone (not accomodated). And note the IF, there haven't been enough 6 month only placements to demonstrate this is now the norm.
I don't think BALPA would be of much help in this instance? Needs to be some sort of independent attempt?
Now however, if the line training only lasts 6 months, then yes it appears it is effectively pay to fly; however, it has been argued that there aren't many places where you can get a fully accomodated fATPL, MCC, Advanced handling, TR and 6 months line training for £47500 (bond minus funds returned)?? Or maybe you can, I haven't done enough research to have a valid opinion on that, am working on the basis that Ryanair for example demand £20,000 for TR alone (not accomodated). And note the IF, there haven't been enough 6 month only placements to demonstrate this is now the norm.
I don't think BALPA would be of much help in this instance? Needs to be some sort of independent attempt?
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Philpaz, not eveyone was born with a silver spoon, some people actually have had sucessful careers and earned the money to fund training
The problem is that the whole buying your way in to the industry can be looked at from so many angles. Most Integrated students, if they were honest, would say its the chance of a job rather than the quality of training that drew them to that route. The fore mentioned difference between Bond and SSTR, the list goes on.....Its all about money, how much you've got and your willingness to spend it on the dream!
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It amazes me that experienced pilots consistently make posts on pprune claiming that it's the wannabes' fault for letting the self sponsored TR become the norm. You people need to take a long hard look at yourselves and the responsibility YOU in conjunction with BALPA have in protecting the industry for future generations.
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Originally Posted by Philpaz
....an SSTR is just another take on the bond system really. Your (sic) paying either way.
SSTR. Pilot/cadet pays up front.
Bond. Pilot/cadet agrees to reimburse company on a pro-rata basis if they leave. Don't leave, don't pay. I've had three type ratings this way and it's not cost me a penny. My salary was the same as those of people who joined with a type rating so actually I've not paid.
Originally Posted by The Mixmaster
It amazes me that experienced pilots consistently make posts on PPRuNe claiming that it's the wannabes' fault for letting the self sponsored TR become the norm. You people need to take a long hard look at yourselves and the responsibility YOU in conjunction with BALPA have in protecting the industry for future generations.
I think though that you'll find that by their very nature many of those who ignored the consequences of their actions when they paid for their TR probably don't give a toss about those struggling now. Try pinning one of them down and asking what help they'll give. I did. Nearly two weeks ago I asked a RYR FO on here what he'd do to help new cadets avoid paying for a TR. Still waiting for the spineless bugger to answer.
Educated Hillbilly
Philpaz, no one is disputing that the instructing/ air taxi route produces a better more rounded pilot (also note I am an ex-instructor and was very briefly a turboprop FO until laid off last year, not a 200hour jobseeker).
The other thing that has contributed to the SSTR culture is actually the switch from the CAA to the JAA training system, on the old self improver route the 700 hour requirement for a full CPL meant it was necessary to instruct to build hours, with the introduction of JAA and the fact a full CPL could be held a 200 hours has given low hour pilots the option of going straight to a type rating, and airlines have exploited this fact.
The other thing that has contributed to the SSTR culture is actually the switch from the CAA to the JAA training system, on the old self improver route the 700 hour requirement for a full CPL meant it was necessary to instruct to build hours, with the introduction of JAA and the fact a full CPL could be held a 200 hours has given low hour pilots the option of going straight to a type rating, and airlines have exploited this fact.
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My salary was the same as those of people who joined with a type rating so actually I've not paid.
My point is that as a CADET, and we are in the wannabes forum here, you will pay either way. SSTR = pay up front but get a higher salary. Bond = pay nothing, or monthly depending on how you look at it and get a lower salary.
It all falls down when people get the TR without the job offer.
Oh and ports,
so ineffect is there any difference between someone hiring a twin to build hours to get air taxi work and someone paying for hours on a 737.
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That's the problem with generalisations, they are often easy to prove wrong. I've never paid for a TR, quite the opposite, so how have I contributed to the problem? On the other hand you now have pilots in the sytem who bought their TR/jobs. Now, if you said they owed the current crop of wannabees a helping hand I'd agree with you. They contributed to the SSTR timebomb, they should help sort it out.
I think though that you'll find that by their very nature many of those who ignored the consequences of their actions when they paid for their TR probably don't give a toss about those struggling now. Try pinning one of them down and asking what help they'll give. I did. Nearly two weeks ago I asked a RYR FO on here what he'd do to help new cadets avoid paying for a TR. Still waiting for the spineless bugger to answer.
I think though that you'll find that by their very nature many of those who ignored the consequences of their actions when they paid for their TR probably don't give a toss about those struggling now. Try pinning one of them down and asking what help they'll give. I did. Nearly two weeks ago I asked a RYR FO on here what he'd do to help new cadets avoid paying for a TR. Still waiting for the spineless bugger to answer.
People who previously have paid for their type ratings are victims of market conditions. There is no way in to FR as a low hour cadet without buying a Type Rating so, please explain, how can a RYR FO change that for new cadets?
Seems like you're fortunate enough Flinstone to have been hired by a company thatdoes not enter into SSTR's. Others, especially in this climate, are not so fortunate.
