The use of A-levels?

[MikadoTrident]

Hi,

Unless one is trying to get a sponsorship or any type of scheme with an airline, FTO's state that the minimum requirements are 5 GCSE's including Maths, Science and English at a grade C level. With that in mind I am just wondering how useful AS and/or A-levels are when applying to FTO's and airlines?

Thanks.

MT

[cfwake]

Well, if you're the only person who doesn't have them, as I suspect would be the case, you'll be of great help to other applicants!

[student88]

Unless you are wishing to apply for sponsorships which require them or the forces, in my opinion, they are of little use when it comes down to job hunting.

That said, in the current climate, they might give you something to do whilst this recession blows over. They do offer you something to fall back on and allow you to progress your career into other areas if all fails on the flying front. You should take a look at your position and weigh things up. If you're at the age where you're making the decision to either stay on at school after your GCSE's - I'd suggest you carry on with the A Levels. Many say that you can never have enough qualifications.

Some people say that if it comes down to an airline having two similar candidates, one with a levels, one without - they'll choose the one with. That probably never happens, and even if it did - they'd choose personality over high school education. Person a might have 2 A grades in Maths and Physics but he's a right pillock - his qualifications wont get him the job.

[bjkeates]

I would suggest that a grasp of certain A-level concepts in Maths and Physics in particular will give you a good foundation for studying certain aspects of the ATPL Theory. It's not strictly necessary, but in my opinion it is extremely useful.

I know it doesn't answer your specific question, but it's something to consider nevertheless.

[Bealzebub]

Some people say that if it comes down to an airline having two similar candidates, one with a levels, one without - they'll choose the one with. That probably never happens, and even if it did - they'd choose personality over high school education. Person a might have 2 A grades in Maths and Physics but he's a right pillock - his qualifications wont get him the job.

Except the reality is the airline doesn't have two similar candidates, it has hundreds. The grades will be used as one method of whittling the lists down to a managable level for interview. Unless you get as far as the interview, your personality is going to have little chance to shine. However imprecise a science it may be, A-levels at good grade and in the right subjects, show the selectors that a candidate made good choices in relevant subjects and appeared to apply the necessary levels of study and aptitude to achieve the grades that they did. For a job that will continue to require the incumbent to apply the necessary levels of study and achieve a high standard (and grade,) that is significant.

In the current and forseeable market, good grades will (in the absence of significant relevant experience) be a likely prerequisite for interview, simply because so many candidates will have them. Personality is a factor at interview, but in itself will not compensate for a lack of accreditable application and achievement. If achievement and personality are required and Candidate "A" has the former but not the latter, and candidate "B" has the latter but not the former, then "A" is likely to get the interview then fail to progress, "B" is likley to get a "Thank you for your interest" letter, and the rest of the alphabet and scores beside will be queueing up to satisfy the limited number of vacancies actually on offer.

Best advice is apply well armed.

[Re-Heat]

Yes, there are people who don't have them who have managed just fine, and are flying, but if you can't display a reasonable academic background, you are placing yourself at a serious disadvantage, and have yet to display the ability to knuckle down and pass some tough exams (even if you actually hold that skill now).

[georgesantos17]

The moral is this, do not listen to anyone when they say do not bother with A Levels. They are very important indeed although some airlines do not factor them in, you do not stand a chance over people who have them, expecially if you do not have the money to go Self Sponsored, you want to be attaining the maximum grade to knock everyone else over when it comes to assessment time.

Conclusion - A Levels are extremely important and show how dedicated you are to becoming a pilot.

If you want this career so much, you would obtain A Levels to get to where you want to be in life. True fact!

George

[4engines4longhaul]

As a Captain on a wide body jet, I can say that my lack of O and A levels has not held me back. That said though, it continues to surprise me how many F/Os need a calculator for the most simple of tasks. Quick quiz...

Flt plan fuel to JFK is 60,000kg.
Estimated ZFW IS 240,000kg.
Note at bottom of Plan says 285kg per 1000kg change in ZFW.
Final ZFW comes through from Traffic at 237800kg.

How much are you to change your final fuel to?

If you can work it out in about 10 seconds without a calculator then good, and it doesn't matter what qualifications you have. If you need a calculator which many seem to need then Maths O level is definitely getting easier! Rant from grumpy old timer over!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Answer - nothing. You're going to keep the fuel because you know the pushback will be all screwed up, you'll be number 12 for departure and there's gonna be 15 minutes in the hold that the plan doesn't allow for.

You make a very valid point. Two in fact.

Mental arithmetic is possibly the only useful skill that basic schooling gives a pilot. And. I've got two degrees, the best pilot I ever flew with left school at 15. If makes Jack.

When you're young you get a lot of messages that education is important and that school grades are key. Once you've reached middle age you realise that this is a crock of brown stuff. That's not to say encouraging children and youths to study hard by telling them that is important is a bad thing.. its just a white lie.

So don't hang yourselves up about grades and degrees. You are entering a profession whereby you're all licensed by the same authority and judged every six months by your peers. There is nowhere to hide. You're only as good as your last sim check and the good can become rubbish and the rubbish can become brilliant. That aspect of the job is a pressure but its actually quite satisfying. You are held to account twice a year under a microscope. Not many professions have that.

The saddest thing I ever experienced was someone I knew distantly who committed suicide because he mucked up his A Levels. It really didn't matter but to him, at that point in his life, it was life and death important.

Its important to be clever. Quick witted. Nice. Well read. Its important to have friends and have fun and be nice to your atrocious parents. Success at school is commendable but its small in comparison to the rest of your life.

By the time you're 30 ( I *know* you can't imagine that horror ) nobody will ever ask you what you studied or what you scored at school or university and you still have three decades of work ahead.

WWW

ps I had 4 A's 3 B's and a C at GCSE and 1 A, 2 B's at A-level but that was back in the early 1990's when exams were exams unlike now

[Nashers]

FTOs will say min 5 GCSEs, but they want your money.

with an Airline you want their money. do you realy think they will rather have someone who has done GCSEs then learnt to fly for a couple of years, rather than someone who has work experiance and a degree somewhere else, then gone into flying? who would you trust more with one of your jets?

have a search through some of the threads discussing "should i/ should i not got to university". that will give you an idea of what people are saying.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You're 24, went to University, can't spell, have atrocious grammar, structure and vocabulary - why would I trust you with one of my jets over someone with no degree and no A-levels again?


WWW

[4engines4longhaul]

I have to say that I agree with WWW. Possibly the worst grammar I have ever read Nasher.
If you read through earlier threads on educational backgrounds, I think you will find the general view that a degree or at least a good education is valuable, but that this has little to do with pilot selection or ability, simply that it affords the individual a better oppurtunity in life in the event they do not become a pilot.

WWW. SOP these days is to knock 600kg's off the fuel figure. Oh how things have changed. Can't even get the engineers to put a splash on for the wife and kids these days

[georgesantos17]

Well adding on to what I said, university degrees will only get you further up in the airline if anything. Not at all necessary and puts you at no advantage to other candidates. Also your education at A Level is just as important if not more than any other aspects of your life. Bear in mind airlines look for a balanced person so make sure you can priorities your time correctly to maintain a sufficient balance between working and having fun. All in all, university gets you no where in this field and A levels do.

[lukeharvest]

I had 4 A's 3 B's and a C at GCSE and 1 A, 2 B's at A-level but that was back in the early 1990's when exams were exams unlike now

There's actually hardly any difference in the level of difficulty between Maths (Further Maths), Physics, Chemistry and Biology, to name a few A-Levels, now, to when you took them in the 90s.

Of course there may be 1 in 4 people achieving a Grade A at A-Level now, but that's not due to the Science/Maths A-Levels getting easier, it's due to the introduction of 'softer' subjects, such as Photography, Sociology, Accounting, Media Studies for example, courses that originally were aimed at lower-achieving Students, but have caught on and have overtaken Science/Maths.

[aviatordom]

I've just got a C in one of my GCSE Maths Exams, which was foundation tier, i got 73 out of 75, which indicates that i am working incredibly well at my target grade.

I'm allowed to do a resit in March for the higher tier paper, meaning that i can get up to an A*

That's all good, but i'm absolutely c**p at mental arithmetic, i'll be honest now, i was simply staggered by the fuel question someone posted in this topic.

If i'm this bad at Maths, would it be possible for me to do Maths A-level and find it easier, if i start learning maths PROPERLY outside of school starting from i.e now?

[lukeharvest]

I've just got a C in one of my GCSE Maths Exams, which was foundation tier, i got 73 out of 75, which indicates that i am working incredibly well at my target grade.

I'm allowed to do a resit in March for the higher tier paper, meaning that i can get up to an A*

That's all good, but i'm absolutely c**p at mental arithmetic, i'll be honest now, i was simply staggered by the fuel question someone posted in this topic.

If i'm this bad at Maths, would it be possible for me to do Maths A-level and find it easier, if i start learning maths PROPERLY outside of school starting from i.e now?

For literally all Flight Schools you'll be put through Pilot Aptitude tests (numerous of them), where Physics and Maths play a heavy part of that process; especially Mental Arithmetic; the tests that involve Mental Arithmetic are very pushed for time, to disallow the candidate from trying to manually work it out, that fuel question is exactly the style of questions in the Aptitude tests.

The Oxford Aviation Academy Aptitude test (for Maths) comprises of 24 questions to be answered in 20 minutes, not giving candidates enough time to work it out in any other way than mentally.

[BerksFlyer]

There's actually hardly any difference in the level of difficulty between Maths (Further Maths), Physics, Chemistry and Biology, to name a few A-Levels, now, to when you took them in the 90s.

I can vouch for that, during revision for AS Maths I used a few 90s papers and they're no different to the current ones. Don't believe what you read in the Mail, you know how awful their aviation coverage and I can assure you their educational coverage is just as poor.

[chai ja]

Oi! nashers I havent done A Levels or Degrees but doesnt not allow me to fly the Airbus! See you tomorrow mate

[preduk]

I agree with WWW.

I done really well at school getting 8 Standard Grades (GSCEs) and going on to get 5 Highers and 3 Advanced Highers however when I left school no one would even touch me because I had no experience. It showed me how unimportant high school grades were in the real world, apart from when you're applying for University.

I then went on to do a University degree, but again I don't plan on getting a job with it, it's only for a backup career if things go wrong.

[clear prop!!!]

Agree with most of the above, however, if you look at most airline application forms, there is a large section devoted to your educational background.

As has been said above,... if it's you with nothing and another candidate with straight 'A's then chances are HR will make an uninformed choice.

That said that once you are 'in the system' it's experience that matters although I did have a bit of a soft shoe shuffle over my grades at one interview.

It now looks as if getting an interview is the hard bit and the more boxes you can tick the better...remember, it's these new fangled HR bods that seem to call the shots