Job or linetraining with A320 typerating and 350 hours??

[RoyHudd]

Relax people....the unfolding economic disaster will obviate the need for airlines to seek pay-to-fly victims...all those cheapskate companies will soon go to the wall. And sadly so will some of the better airlines too.

There are many bigger problems to get stuck into than this issue.

And before the accusations of arrogance start to fire, I have full sympathy with those trying to join this fascinating and sometimes fun profession...I have never known a worse time. Good luck to all, and to those thinking of paying to line-fly, please think again.

[scallaghan]

Hi

I am just finishing my IR and then the MCC around a full time living to avoid those loans and will not be paying for a self funded type rating unless it was a exceptional circustance and a firm job offer. So I will be back to work once finished to my proper job and getting that needed experience.

After working in another industry for 10 years and knowing how employers can take advantage; I have been very careful with everything and allowing for a position to be able to walk away if needed from any training provider I was unhappy with.

I dont understand why employers should ask newly qualified or perhaps more experienced pilots to fund type ratings when that individual spent out on the initial training.

If people stopped paying, then these businesses would have to address the issue as it would impact the business eventually some way down and allocate funding to staff training as in many other businesses.

Wouldnt expect some other professional jobs to ask for 20/30K ontop of someones initial outlay when salaries and perhaps rostering locations impact a part of that persons financials and subsqent loan repayments.

I suspect the integrated providers will have student funding issues now and perhaps those employers asking for type ratings to be paid will realise access to funding will be a problem the hard way.

Good luck finding work on the airbus

[JJflyer]

Off topic a bit

Thats the thing Scallaghan. If people only stopped paying. But they wont. There is allways some that have the ability to dish out large amounts of money to get "there" quicker.

We owe the decline of the industry to the various scoundrels such as MOL with his b.astardised version of Southwest Airlines and others of his ilk. Not to forget the beancounters that are happy to see people paying to work to maximise profits.

Some really good comments here http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...y-changed.html about how the industry has changed.

As for where to get line training and pay for it, I am sorry but I do not have a clue.

[Phileas Fogg]

Be a little bit wary of that Air Asia deal:

I got sight of the T & C's fairly recently, I might have the figures wrong but as I recall one signs for 1,000 hours for $10,000 and after a certain number of hours one receives a pittance of a salary.

Quite a good deal by the sound of it, many will be thinking that they won't stay for 1,000 hours, they will 'P' Off after a few hundred hours upon the offer of a 'proper' job.

But what I read was that one deposits $10,000 with Air Asia, no mention of what it is a deposit for, and then month by month one also pays to Air Asia the $$$ for the hours they flew during the previous month.

That $10,000 deposit has to be to a security that one will stay for the full 1,000 hours and if one 'escapes' after 100, 200, 300, 400 or 500 hours etc. then one may expect to forfeit one's $10,000 deposit thus, please, build this in to your costings of such a venture.

[easy307]

quote "I think such practices should be illegal, and it wont be until an accident occurs."


Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A320, G-DHJZ

[JJflyer]

Line training qualifications

easy307

Thanks for the very informative link. I think the accident report says it all. Those having a thick wallet should meet the same standards upon selection for these pay for training "Cadet" programs as those who are joining as employees. It is apparent that either the screening, training or both where not thorough enough to weed out the problems.

Unfortunetely the FTO's and airlines alike work with making money in mind and someone offering a nice stash of cash might just be able to slip through the system unnoticed until it is too late. I was not familiar with this accident, but I have gone through the report carefully. My threshold of taking over from the FO has just reduced a tid bit.

Before I get ripped apart, I am not saying that those that have been selected by the airline as employees are all good, far from it. I have flown with people that should not be flying period and I have flown with some really excellent guys that had done their type on their own and where then hired as "Cadet Pilots" yet didnt pay for their line training. I've also flown with those who did pay for the whole "Experience" some of whom again where really motivated and sharp and wanted nothing more than get a job.

[mierda]

I think we should all start some sort of a union to try and stop these practices

There is another interesting thread about an incident where someone was paying for jet time http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ok-airbus.html

[I-AINC]

I'm agree with mierda. The aircraft needs pilots to fly --> without pilots it can't fly --> if an aircraft is on the ground, the airline starts to loss money --> if the airline doesn't get money from the pilot (SSTR + LT), they MUST change method of employment and contract... I think it's very easy to think about, but hard to apply due to wannabee's full of cash

[VNA Lotus]

The most interesting job today is not paying for working oups sorry I mean airline pilot but make people to pay, as a head of FTO.
a good plan, is take a FI course, get experience.
Then take a IRI/CRI course, get experience.
Open your own flying school, then a FTO and teach CPL/IR.
Make money and pay your TR on 320
Then open a TRTO for TR320 because you need before a rating to teach others.
Then take a 737 rating and open a TRTO for 737... etc

You will fly, and live with money from others.

[fadedfootpaths]

VNA Lotus if life was only that simple

[Phileas Fogg]

Listen guys, some of you:

In the 'old' days airlines, pilots, were in the main staffed by pilots who had perhaps learnt to fly during WWII. In those days travelling by air was for the priveliged minority and the cost of air fares reflected this.

Times moved on, inclusive tour holidays commenced etc, new airlines sprang up, charter operators, operators had previously provided pilot training at the operator's expense and this was continued.

To bring it up to the current time many, many, many people are travelling by air, over recent years, with the introduction of low cost carriers, the number of people travelling by air has escalated thus the requirement for pilots has escalated also, only 20 or 30 years ago a pilot may expect to occupy much, if not all, of his career on turbo-props, now young guys are walking straight in on to nice shiny jets.

BUT, the only reason why so many people are travelling is because the air fares have been reduced to such a level that allows them to and it is these very people that have created the jobs for the pilots, they wouldn't otherwise be travelling, perhaps they cannot otherwise afford to, thus if the air fares increase they stop travelling and the requirement for pilots stops also and this applies to non low costs carriers also, they have been forced to find themselves in competition with LCC's.

So there we have it, increase the air fares to incorporate for pilot training costs = fewer passengers = fewer pilot jobs.

[Sciolistes]

VNA Lotus,

I see the Vietnamese entrepreneurial spirit is particularly strong in you

Foggy,

So there we have it, increase the air fares to incorporate for pilot training costs = fewer passengers = fewer pilot jobs.

Quite!

[VNA Lotus]

Irony of course
sure life's not simple!
but it was to show that head of training etc have a better situation...

[Aerospace101]

It is apparent that either the screening, training or both where not thorough enough to weed out the problems.

Its called CONFLICT OF INTEREST, where the FTO did the 2nd time sim assessment for the student, not the airline..........

[JJflyer]

Pilot training costs are a VERY small part of the operational expenses of a company in comparison to other expenses companies have. The costs are calculated in the seat/mile costs as it is and the pay for training schemes are just a way for some operators to boost their economy.

[Phileas Fogg]

Whoever suggested that pilot training is the only area where airlines, particularly LCC's, endeavour to keep their outgoings to a minimum to compete with the competion and, ultimately, stay in business?

They will 'wheel and deal' to negotiate the best prices for aircraft leasing, maintenance, insurance etc. right down to ball point pens, I've even observed A4 paper being used on both sides before going for recycling. They'll even have premium rate telephone numbers that goes some way, if not all the way, to paying the wages of the staff that answer those phones, the inflight sales mark-ups probably pay the cabin crew salaries.

But then comes along a 100 of few fresh faced pilots applying for a job that they are not qualified (type rated) for and they, some of them, expect the red carpet to be rolled out. 'Oh, come on in young man, sure we'll spend a bucket load of our hard earned revenue training you to progress your chosen career, can't understand why we didn't think of it before'.

[perceval]

Travelling by bus is cheap : Never heard of a bus driver having to pay to get into a bigger bus .
Bad enough to get bad paychecks when you start , paying on top ....hmmm ?
The thomas cook story ...well to be fair , there has been accidents in aviation before that one , that doesn't say much about the value or lack of of paid line training .
One thing for sure Try it at home ) , friends and relatives were shocked to learn about current practices of some airlines .Most didn't feel particularly happy at the idea of being guinea pigs for the low costs airlines training dept .
The question remains : Are you more or less motivated when you've paid for it ? (Less fear of results if there's no job in that cie at the end ).Just thoughts , no judgement .We should have all stopped that system when it started in the 90's , now we're all

[Phileas Fogg]

A qualified bus driver wouldn't need to incur any licensing costs to move up to a bigger bus, a PCV licence, certainily in UK, qualifies the individual to operate any bus.

[portsharbourflyer]

While you all scream about these pay to fly schemes are degrading conditions, the main thing which makes these schemes atttactive to candidates is the fact that FI wages are awful and the average turboprop job has a three year bond with a salary of about 22000 a year. A 320 or 737 FO with 500 hours on type on the whole will be earning a decent salary. So for some individuals the pay cut you would take to instruct full time in order to get a tp job (paying terrible wages with a long term bond) means that paying for a rating and line training is actually the more financially viable option.

I don't necessarily support these pay to fly shemes, but also consider that if you go down the FI route and do the IRI (removal of no applied instruments restriction) and MEI upgrades you can easily spend 15000k on FI ratings (6000 for the FI (R), 30 hours p1 MEP time, 5000 (hour build in the US rates), IRI upgrade 1500, MEI upgrade 2000), then the gap between a rating and the FI route starts to narrow.

[perceval]

purely financially , that's not untrue (for europe at least) but the difference is between making oneself employable and actually pay to perform a Job that the operator needs to fill (by law) . That's been said time and time again , but the main disadvantage of the pay to fly scheme is that it reduces the number of jobs available .
And doing flight instruction , GA , reg.turboprop isn't just about making it eventually to the airlines , It's about enjoying good flying (the bit between take off and landing ) while you can . In a way it's a bit sad (personnal opinion) to go straight from school to an airliner (They ARE very automated and you don't see as much at the end of the day ) . Besides money and big things , new pilots should look forward to move slowly up the ladder , learning their trade and gazing at those marvelous landscapes beneath them .
I guess I missed a meeting ...