Dare I ask?

[SlingsbyT67M]

OK, I think that as a newly qualified CPL/IR (320 hours TT) I am finally at my wits end!!! I have sent out countless hundreds of CV's with the obligatory few no thank you replies, which strangely enough I am grateful to get - hey at least they took the time to read what I have taken countless hours to prepare!!

So, I think its off to do an FIR for me. Not that I mind really. I just want to fly and fly anything, getting little or no money is just a bonus. My only worry is this - I fork out another £6.5K for the FIR and hey presto there just arnt any FI jobs left because the current instructors are not being hired by the airlines so they aint going anywhere which means zip for us that just want to fly and get a foot in the door! - cant blame them really.

My question is this, if I do an FI course am I throwing good money after bad, should I take the punt and throw the dice one more time or am I better off going back into that career that I was so happy to leave over a year ago???

[daria-ox]

Doing an FI course is a great idea. I will be doing it after my CPL. Its a great way to build hours, get experience.

And as an Instructor, you don't have to work for an airline. You could work for a flight school? Modular for example? That's what I will be doing to get about 1000 hours in my logbook.

Good luck !

[flightlevel1985]

Slingsby, I am in the same position and am unsure what to do due to the future situation with FI jobs. I think I will do the course part time next spring and see what the score is.

[Tootles the Taxi]

Not that I mind really.

What a shame - you might even learn to enjoy it.

means zip for us that just want to fly and get a foot in the door!

Its a great way to build hours

Both the above do a great disservice to flying instructors - bit like a school teacher saying that teaching is a great opportunity to get out of the house or have six weeks off in the summer.

You could work for a flight school? Modular for example?

Commercial FTO's require experience levels above those for PPL schools.

Instructing is hard work for little pay, yet rewarding and interesting at the same time. In much the same way as some graduates of the big schools assume they have the 'right stuff' for airline flying, not all FI's have the aptiude or attitude for flying instructing.

[daria-ox]

The main reason I'm going to do an FI course is to get some flying experience and because I want to fly. I don't want to do anything else, even if I could get better money. That's not the point.

Instructing is hard work, but nothing in life is easy. At least for some people

[ERIK C]

I wouldn't rule out the option of going back to your old job and instruct in the weekends until better times!

[SlingsbyT67M]

Why why why????

Tootles - Just for the record I never spoke badly of the instructing path. In fact I have nothing but praise and administration for anyone who goes down this path. I can only hope that if I do spend the money and get the rating I will be half as good as the instructors that have taught me.

All I am asking is ARE THERE JOBS, full and part time (weekends) I dont want to spend the money and be in the same situation I find myself now. So please please dont turn this thread into that which it is not meant to be - NEGATIVE.

[Bealzebub]

It is astonishing that anybody with 320 hrs thinks that airlines would be lining up to sign them on even outside of a recession. That level of general experience would put somebody in the realm of looking for a flying instructor position in the ordinary course of events. The demise of Silverjet, Zoom, and XL, has placed hundreds of very experienced pilots into a severley weak and nervous marketplace. In addition to this, some airlines have been releasing their temporary contract pilots rather than keeping them on, as they may have done in the past. What is now happening is that some big, experienced and hungry fish are swimming in those airline holding pools where previously minnows might have thrived.

My son recently started work at a large retail store. On the same induction day as himself was one of his "old" flying instructors. That pilot had been flying with a UK airline, been told there was no job at the end of the contract period, and needed another job quickly. They were both lucky, the demise of Woolworths is likely to add thousands of staff who would otherwise have snapped up those jobs as well. There is a very cold wind blowing through the UK economy. It is Winter and flying schools do not need extra staff. The ones they have are going to need to hold on to the jobs they have. There are not likely to be "instructors jobs" available, simply as a fall back position.

My advice would be, hold on to what you have if you can. If not take any job that pays the bills and keep sending out those CV's irrespective of the eventual number. If nothing else the presentation should get better with practice. I appreciate this is not what you want to hear, but take a reality check.

[Nearly There]

I have spoken to a couple of schools this week regarding FI jobs, I started the course earlier in the year and hope to finish in the new year now, of the schools I spoke to, a couple where after full time instructors, and another had weekend vacancies for trial lessons, still a foot in the door though when a full time job becomes available.
There are still jobs out there and a couple of calls and/or visits to the school(s) you wish to work for will answer your question.
But things do seem to change quickly in this game!

[MIKECR]

Slingsby,

Dont lose face, im fast approaching 2 years now since finishing fatpl and no job. Welcome to the real world. I have a couple of hold pool slots but thats about the best i've mustered. Was offered an air ambulance job at one point but the pay was an absolite pi** take...but thats another story.

Timewsie, approaching xmas is not a good time to be making rash decisions. An FI course at this time(weatherwise) could take months to complete. The FI jobs are also few and far between just now.

I would probably hold out until the spring and see what happens airline wise. Flybe and Ryanair etc have all said they will be recruiting again around March/April so it may be worth waiting til then and get your application away. Fatpl holders will always have a good chance with these big recruiters.

I wouldnt worry too much about the experienced 737 guys who are currently job hunting having been laid off.....many turboprop operators and smaller companies wont touch them with a barge pole. They know fine well these guys will be off elsewhere at the drop off a hat if a better job comes up.

As for the interim, try and get whatever you can - para dropping or perhaps glider towing to keep the flying ticking over. I currently do both..its worth every trip.

[SlingsbyT67M]

Thanks

"Nearly there"- thanks, its refreshing to get a straight forward answer.

Beazelbub- Normally I would just dismiss your post. However I have just had enough, so a few pointers

1. I never expected to get anything and certainly didn't expect to get a job in a BIG shiny airline. I have applied to everyone and his dog, even the few single engine operators that are out there - Dont assume things, know the facts and then reply

2. You seem quite an intelligent person. I would like to think that I am the same. I know d****me well the economy is not looking good, so please don't feel the need to stand on your pulpit and tell me what its like and how bad things are. A straightforward response, i,e things arnt good, perhaps you shouldn't spend your money right now would have been quite good enough

[SlingsbyT67M]

MikeCR- wicked advise, thankyou!

[Bealzebub]

Pulpit or not, you asked the question and I gave you what I considered a fair and honest reply. I suspect you only want replies that mesh with your idea of how the world should be rather than it is? However you are not paying for it, so consider it a bonus.

If you want to do a Flying Instructors rating then go out there and do it. I would suggest sounding out the opinion of a few local flying schools first, if that course of action is dependent on there being a reasonable return at the end of it. Otherwise you may find yourself here in the middle of next year complaining at the number of CV's you are sending out.

The reply I gave you was qualified, it included real examples of what is happening now. Go out there and research for yourself. Go to the flying schools and talk to people (they probably have the time these days.) By all means feel sorry for yourself, and feel free to have a go at me for giving you a perfectly straightforward and honest reply if you like. If you simply want smoke blown up your proverbial, then do as you suggest and ignore this advice, in which case, thank you for your interest!

[MIKECR]

Slingsby,

No probs...I know exactly how you feel!

There are still the odds of jobs around...the likes of Gama were advertising last week for Cessna 406 crews for aerial survey etc...FO position's available. Eastern Airways have also been taking FO's lately. They seem to prefer 1000 hour guys(due to fast command potential) but will take low hours guys also, assuming they self fund the rating.

Give it til March, nothing is likely to happen between now and then.

Get yourself registered with the likes of IPA etc and keep reading up(very day!!) on current airline news. Look at who's adding aircraft etc and keep the cv's 'targeted'. Sending out will nilly isnt going to get you anywhere fast.

As a slight aside, they say it takes on average 18 months to get thats 1st job!

[Coffin Corner]

SlingsbyT67M

Bealzebub's advice is spot on, why do you feel the need to be tetchy about it? He said nothing out of turn.
You say you are at your wits end, just exactly how long have you been sending out CVs? Two months? Six months? A year? Or two?

The bearer or bad news would say that if you are low houred and fresh out of school then it's button down the hatches time to expect a long hard road to that first job.
The problem with so many unemployed pilots being out there is that every dick and their dog wants jobs, so the likes of instructing, banner towing, parachute dropping is that there is always likely to be someone with more experience than you gunning for these positions. That's a sad fact of life.
I have some good friends who came out of training in the middle of boom time and they haven't even had an interview let alone a sniff of a job.

The FIR is a great addition to your license, it is during this course that you realise how little you know about flying. It is worthwhile to do, there are still a few jobs out there but for how long? Personally I think it's going to get alot worse before it gets better, what we're seeing now is just the beginning.

CC

[MIKECR]

Coffin,

The surprising thing is..the likes of para clubs and gliding clubs are always short of pilots. People always refer to the likes of these post's as 'jobs'. They are not jobs, they are unpaid flying positions which at the very most will pay a bacon buttie or a cup of coffee in return for a few hours flying per day. It would be surprising to many people the response they might actually get if they contacted theyre local clubs. Sadly, many fatpl's out there seem to think that this sort of flying is beneath them...more fool them! I've logged nearly 30 hours in the last 7 weeks, hasnt cost me a penny!

[Bealzebub]

MIKECR, Good for You! That is exactly what you should be doing, finding a niche and exploiting it. 30 hours flying in 7 weeks starts filling up the all important pages of that logbook. However fiscally unrewarding, it keeps you flying and shows the sort of determination and motivation that will give you some definite advantage when things do turn around.

In my "pulpit" at 37'000 ft for the last 25 years, I have had the pleasure of flying with many hundreds of First Officers from all types of backround: Air force; other jet operators; turboprop operators; General aviation; Approved course direct entry low hour pilots. I always ask them how they made it to where they are today? The answers have almost been as varied as the individuals, but an underlying theme that surfaces almost every time is a high level of motivation and self awareness. Even when employment opportunities are richer, there is still intense competition, and these qualities still underpin the best people that come forward. The advice I offer my own children is borne out of the experience I have collected from these people who have achieved the success they aspired to and even more importantly worked hard for it. No matter how bad things might be, there is probably a solution for those who are prepared to both accept the reality and work around it.

Speaking generally, advice may be good or bad. It may be what you want to hear, it may not. If you can filter what is important and useful, then do just that. Being rude or offensive to those whose advice you don't like will not stand you well on the flightdeck of an airliner, if indeed it stands you in good stead anywhere else? Attitude and manners are a most definite advantage in those pilots I have witnessed who have fast tracked their way through this career. That might seem to be belied by reading some of these forums, but it is nevertheless true.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The major FTO's are already laying off. The small schools will be dead next year. PPL flying is a luxury that nobody needs in a recession. Becoming an FI now is like pi55ing petrol on your already burning home.

Brutal. But true.



WWW

[MIKECR]

Coffin,

Dont volunteer for it, there's others in more need of the hours!


Bealz,

Yes, it must be interesting to see where everyone has come from. From my ATPL groundschool course(modular)....all have taken very different routes since then - Ryanair, FI, glider towing/para dropping, CTC, even to those who have given up....theyre all in there!

[corsair]

Parachute dropping & glider/banner towing seems to be the single biggest thing people look at to build hrs after they leave the flight schools, and alot of the time it's a closed shop, i.e. not what you know it's who you know. My perception, rightly or wrongly was that these positions were, and are never available because they have people queuing into the next town to do it.

That is in fact a logical deduction, you may think. In reality the opposite is true. When I went for job like that, a paying one I might add. I wasn't exactly optimistic. 'I suppose, I'm just one of many looking to fly for you?' says I. 'No, just you', was the reply. Other pilots have similar experiences.

It is in fact difficult to get pilots for these roles, because quite frankly it is beneath far to many pilots. On the other hand there is never a demand for newly qualified low time time pilots in relatively demanding single pilot operations. Neither are these operations in the business of carefully training a new pilot only for him or her to walk out a couple of months later or sometimes even days.

So it's a paradox, pilots are needed but not the kind of pilots offering themselves for these roles. Even in a recession.