donPablo

I'm curious about why are we worst than the ab initio guys, why all this stupid ab initio courses couldn't be just changed for CPL recruitment... I wanna know WHY ie. Etihad takes everyone except CPLs, are they afraid of us or what ? This could save them a lot o money and they could even bond/contract us on the same terms, but people who paid lot of money would get some return and an airline woudn't have to worry about all this medicals and other "not beeing the right person" stuff, which they take into account.

Just don't tell me that it's better to teach ab initio than a guy with some experience, beacuse it's simply not true, as person with 250 hrs or a bit more don't get bad habits.

tiger2411

very much agree!

ravanelli295

totally agree....even though i dont have any licenses yet....i guess they just want to sort of "breed thier own" and mould them into the etihad culture how they like....still doesent justify the cost of training these guys..

boeingbus2002

If the cost of 0 to 200 hr FATPL cadet is about £65,000+ (depending on training location), add to that accomodation and living expenses for 12-13 months the cost of a cadet will be close to £80,000 if not more just to be ready for a type rating course.

Now compare a CPL/IR holder. 200 hrs already with proven Multi-engine instrument flying experience. If they were to undergo 50 hrs refresher training to bring the candidate upto speed (assuming a long gap since completing flying training) and to "mould" candidate into company culture and practices, and to monitor quality of training, the cost to be ready for TR course would be no more than £20,000. Thats a considerable saving of both time and money.
This assumes 13 months for the ab-initio and 4 months for the CPL/IR refresher.

At the moment there are many experienced jet pilots on the market, however not all would be willing to work in the Middle East for various personal reasons. However airlines like EY and GF (who operate smaller jets like A320/A321) could use CPL/IR ready pilots much sooner than having to wait 13-14 months for a cadet to complete the course. Of course they wouldnt have had the influence in the training from day one, however the 4 month refresher period would still be a saving in both time and monetary terms.

I know I am missing something big here, but the figures surely speak for themselves.

ColonialFlyer

Carrying bad habbits and more difficult to stick to the company procedure could be the reason.

PPRuNeUser0215

When you are coming out of training, bad habits are not a factor. In 200 hours, habits are easily written off. In 2000 not so much, in 20000 never.
Keep your hopes up. You may not be going through the Etihad (and whatever else way) but if you stick to it, you will make it. Bear in mind that times are bad so you not making it is not related to your performance so much . It is just that hardly anybody needs anyone... It might take months, years but I promise you, the light is there, at the end of the tunnel... Only for the people most suited to it. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt. Unfortunately it is now you turn but stick to it... It is well worth it.
Parents, friends might not really understand it, yet the day you will succeed all will be fogotten (for them). you ? You will know better and enjoy it even more.

Please ! Please don't give up !

happyhour2010

Nice to hear something encouraging on this forum once in a while.

MVE

Couldn't disagree more about bad habits, having taught CPL/IR, the worst thing about teaching someone who had not come through our training system, whether they were PPL, part finished CPL or completed CPL doing an IR, was having to train out the bad habits picked up from flying alone or poor training. If you want to train someone to fly to your high standards it is nearly always better to start from as close to zero hours as possible. If you have a CPL/IR and don't keep current and by that I mean fly every 20 or so hours with an instructor to ensure you don't get into bad habits, you risk getting sloppy. I'm not saying give up if you already have a license but be aware that without training and high discipline you will inevitably get steadily less sharp.....best of luck with the job search.

PPRuNeUser0215

MVE I was actually to radical in saying that bad habits were not a factor. Of course bad habits are a factor but at 200 hours they will be cured fairly easily with discipline and the right environment (either through training or work in a good standards operation which is training in a way).
It will be easier to cure a 200 hours guy when compared to a guy who has accumulated 2000 of bad habits (and by 2000 hours of it, I call it poor standards).
So people, keep your standards high the best you can but just to reiterate, a 200 hours guy is not lost cause. He is trainable easily given the right environment and a will on his/her behalf to achieve something good.
Generally speaking companies like to see there is potential in a guy. Not that they are god's gift but that they are showing signs of progression during say, a sim ride, a willigness to listen and learn from either experience (mistakes mostly) or feedback given.
That tends to please the recruiters...

But if you are crap, passing selections and sim rides will be tough so bear it mind.

Apologies for being slighlty misleading in my original post... Not on the "don't give up" part though.

boeingbus2002

Wise words AMEX. For many who already posses a licence and still after a few years with no joy, the current situation just seems to be another nail in the coffin. Of course many will not give up hope so easily. However how long will it be before "low hours" are considered for employment when there are so many more experience pilots available?!
One of the key points you mention is keeping up skills and flying. The instructor route doesnt seem so viable right now if schools are seeing a reduction in PPL/trial lessons.

skyflaps

Completely agree AMEX - Its about attitude, personality, intelligence, ability, the willingness to learn, to be able to recognise the good from the bad and be able to listen and learn from those with experience.

Sorry to say MVE but just because a guy is CPL/IR its no reason to right him off - it's a little arrogant in my opinion and hopefully in time this will fade away. In many ways, a guy that has done distance learning ATPL theory whilst holding a job, hour building in remote locations such as Africa (doing cross border flights cheaply) and IR/CPL courses in cheap places such as Spain and the USA, has gained a very wide level of experience. In addition it shows a huge amount of dedication, commitment and potential to do it this way - Integrated Courses are easier in some aspects, administration is sorted out for you, you are used to the same school, system and aircraft amongst other things, the whole way through your course - With Modular you learn to adapt early on in your career and this is useful. And of course you end up with more hours.

Nevertheless I havn't a problem with certain companies turning their noses up at CPL/IR - Im comfortable with my training and ability - with the money I saved going modular I was able to pay for a Turbine Rating - I have a few hundred Twin Turbine hours dropping parachutes in Europe - I feel this is more value than blowing it on an Integrated Course paying for expensive epaulettes on my shirts.

Someone will hire us - it might not be the well paid top job right hand seat in an Airbus - frankly this shouldn't be the case for a young newly graduated pilot straight out of school probably still a teenager - he needs to see the world, live, learn and grow - he will be sick of jets by the time he's 30! - secretly Im hoping for some adventurous contract work for my first job (a bush flying course in Africa as part of my 'modular course' gave me some preparation) and Im confident that Im ready for it. Hopefully this kind of start to my flying career will form me into a safe and respectable airline pilot one day in the future.

Good luck to all you guys

Rj111

It's actually quite a big decision to make deciding how rigirously you pursue training after PPL with the knowledge that Airlines won't consider you for cadet type things.

mech500

Not all people out there can afford the ridiculous amount of money to get a CPL/IR so im with the airlines on this one .... i think that cadet schemes should be for those without a CPL - im sure all of us would rather that an airline pay for our training then fork out the cash ourselves?
I think cadet schemes are great .. more airlines should pay the costs to train people to ATPL level.

Kelly Hopper

But of course most cadet schemes require you to input loads of dosh. That is the problem. They can get a guy with no experience, mould him the way they want him, run him off the conveyor belt as a company guy and he gets to pay for most if not all of it. In effect you are subsidising the cost of running an airline.
So if you put yourself in the shoes of Mr Airline Manager, who would you choose? And I dare say there are tax benefits for the operator too.
STOP paying for all this and it stands a chance of changing, but only in years to come. But we live in a dog eat dog world where every pilot is trying to be one step ahead of the next guy by having more hours, a jet rating, line experience etc etc etc.
Whoever was the first to offer to pay for a rating has a lot to answer for I'm afraid.

corsair

The reality is that airlines can ask for anything they like. Fairness has nothing to do with it. They are a business. If an airline only wants blond pilots, well then you better get out the hairdye. If they only want cadets with zero flight time then that's what they get.

Every airline has it's own eccentric notion of what they need from a pilot.

If you want a job with them you jump through their particular hoops or you exit by the nearest door. Simple as that. No use whinging about the unfairness of it all.

borat33

tell them that you dont have cpl ..
show them excellent performance by the end of the course ..

daria-ox

They'll find out that he has a CPL sometime

Oh gosh! Polish guy.
..I'm not alone

bfisk

You won't believe how fast bad habits starts forming until you've done some flight instructing. When I was a fresh instructor I though I had an advantage when taking over students with some experience (from other instructors or other schools/aircraft). Fact of the matter is, those were the hard-to-teach students. Newbies, completely fresh, would be a lot easier to teach. Never underestimate the power of mind-set...

boeingbus2002

mech500;
Of course not everyone has the money to obtain a CPL/IR up front. (Costs can vary depending on route taken). However what we are trying to say is when an airline is recruiting at the "lower end" of the experience spectrum, they can choose:
* A zero hour cadet and a bill for £80k+ or
* A CPL/IR qualified pilot with 200 hrs minimum. There are issues of course regarding bad habits and so a course to provide some sort of revision or adaptation to the company procedures would cost considerably less than training a new student. The time also would be reduced. (13 months compared to a 2-3 months).

Of course there are many wannabe pilots who would want to get that first step on the ladder with a cadet position. Not many airlines are offering such an opportunity either.

mech500

I just want to put a different slant on things:

With reference to the above posts, it is quite obvious that a candidate with a CPL will cost less to train.
However if all the airlines took this view, then it is reasonable to expect that eventually, zero hour pilots won't stand a chance of getting a place on a cadet scheme. Consequently paying for a CPL becomes the only option for zero hour'd guys

Similarly a candidate with a type rating (low-hours) cost less to train than a non-type rated pilot .... but if all the airlines took this view on-board than self funded type ratings become the norm and perhaps in time they will become the only option
and i'm sure no one would want this?

Cheers,
Mech500