Airline Training Partnership (Merged)

[Mister Geezer]

Yes and judging from the thread on the Terms and Endearment forum, many crews at bmi seem to be contacting BALPA to voice their concerns and dissatisfaction.

Good luck to them as well since the sooner this scam is put to bed... the better!

[tony2F]

here here

[Nearly There]

A new advert has appeared on here stating min 500hrs of line training, PAID contract on completion of Line Training, anyone any ideas who its with?....although the website still states:

We can secure up to 300 Hours with several operators.

and

Potential placement with our
several airline partners...

Or

• Several airlines will be waiting
  to sign you up
• You will be a direct entry First Officer
  with full salary & benefits

Confusing, and still guys from the first batch not in employment, Im not considering it just curious as to how an advert appears on here thats somewhat different to the website and reality!

[THD]

hey

i looked it up apparently its 150h with bmi and after that 400+ with a greek airline in athens who pays you on a 6 month flexi contract and it states that they afterwards know an airline that has pledged to interview their pilots as a priority once the hours have been gained

[BigNumber]

THD,

That sounds like a pretty good deal to me fella!

150 hours 'paying for line training' then another 400 hours being paid. Even if it is a flexicrew type engagement it's still a great chance for a wannabe to gain some experience.

The training at BMI will be top draw too

I'm sure they'll be a queue for this scheme at ATP.

[THD]

i don't know if you are out after 6 months than its back home like all the others. Ok you have hours on type but their are alot of people at home for the moment with hours on type on airbus and boeing. On their is no secure agreement with their so called partners that will invite you for an interview.I think their are many ex ATP guy's at home without a job after it ends.

[BigNumber]

I'd rather be looking for work with 500hrs on type than with a FATPL MEP/IR!

You've got to be in it to win it!

Good luck whatever you decide to do mate.

(Have a Duvel for me, I always enjoyed one in Wevelgem.)

[THD]

for the duvel i will not hesitate great tho hear that people enoy the beer here in belgium. I go a lot to wevelgem i will have one in your name next time.

[F117A]

One Post Only

I cannot agree with you more. These ATP schemes are only continuing to narrow our chances of finding jobs and yet people still find the money to fund these ratings knowing that after their placement they are without jobs.

Im sorry guys but I find it absolutely revolting to say the least to have to pay to fly on the RHS. Why should we people who have a Frozen ATPL(A) have to pay to fly after it already cost a fortune. Its absolutely ridiculus and still people are falling for these tricks. Guess what guys after you get the placement...guess were you are going to be..on your sofa with more debt and seeing your next placement flying on the RHS flying instead of you. And this will continue. So how can we eventually get the job? If we are working for free!!!!!

I think some sort of organsation should be formed to try and close down these organisations who are causing this daylight robery.
Its true you will have a TR and the odd 300 for 400 hrs but your ATP is still frozen and you will still struggle to find a job with more debt. I work in the airline industry and I just finished ATPL(A) training a few months ago. These are bad times so we need patience and I know poeple with 1000 ir more hrs on type without jobs so do you think your odd 300 hrs are going to help so much?

Sorry if I offended people who are getting into these schemes but wake up and realise that this roation will keep on going if we do not put a stop to it after all airlines are business and no one will refuse someone working for free!!!!!!!!!!!!

[antonov09]

PPRuNe disgraceful

Why do pprune allow these schemes to be advertised on this site when they contribute to the detriment of our industry.



YOU SHOULD BE F ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES!

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

How far does it go?

I hold a full ATPL and have more than 2000hrs on MPA/JAR 25/Multi/Turbine/Jet/EFIS what have you. So do several of my colleagues, but we are not flying A320s or B737s. For job security - or the illusion of such-some of my colleagues are now forking up money to retrain on A320s and B737s. Well aware that at the end of it they will probably need to pay for line training be it LHS or RHS until they have enough hours on type to match the no/low timers. Who benefits from this? This is just a game of outbidding each other! I can remember a time where a CPL/IR-ME(L) was enough to land an F/O position. Then came ATPL theory requirements, then JAR-FCL (no more national lisences), then came MCC, JOC, CRM, DG and so on. Now it is exceptional if a carrier will take you without a typerating even with thousands of hours. I sent out some applications, and even with four typeratings (not all current mind you)- Guess what!? "Sorry, min. 300hrs on type" and that was the most positive reply I got.

I bet, if we keep accepting this, it wound be long before the minimum will be 1000 hours on type, full ATPL and a masters degree :-)

Hey! I just had a business idea! Lets all chip in and start a university that charges say GBP 100.000 (plus extras) and train people to the previously mentioned requirements. Then, one could truely have an airline where the people could travel for free! Look out FR here comes trouble!

[Avenger]

Hi Guys,

I just love it when FR get free advertising! Now for the issues:

1) How many new guys flying recently would be doing so if they had not done a SSTR plus line hours... I can honestly say from our point of view.. nearly nil

2) It is very easy for us to choose between a guy that spent three years in the states, got a good tan, bummed around and eventually got a FATPL against a guy that did it in 18 months

3) In todays climate, Type ratings with no hours on type are not worth a light, unfortunate and sad for those that went down that route before the industry imploded, but nevertheless a fact..why.. training risk and cost

4)Is the turbo prop guy with 2000hrs going onto a jet via SSTR getting an advantage.. YES.. simply because of Agency demand for 1500 JAR 25 and Hull loss insurance

5) Is the like of the ATP scheme good for the industry.. YES...why? reduces cost per cockpit, promotes airline expansion and keeps other guys in work. The general problem is these schemes got a bad name as other more high profile providers failed to deliver the line training in the agreed time, guys ended up out of check and recency..the rest is history

6)You are entitled to your opinion.. as is everyone else, but don't Blame Pprune.. they need advertising revenues too, maybe we should only allow professional pilots on here with a subscription fee.. kick off all the idiots and geeks whom have never been in a plane and with clearly no clue about our industry

7) Is there any going back to the old days, recruitment from frozen ATPL with 170 hrs.. probably not..just look at the hold pools being closed down and the number of contract pilots going up.. 40% of our summer expansion is via agency contract staff! Fact is, these ATP guys could be some of the 40% next year..Hmmm

Am I anything to do with ATP.. No, but I do know where the crews will end up, the scheme is legit as far as we can see.. If I was looking for a chance, albeit at a price, I would seriously consider this type of program while places exist.. No doubt ATP will also get a load of enquiries from the typed no hours guys as well..!

[The Mixmaster]

You've got to be a complete mug to consider paying for a TR plus line training in the current climate.

[Tolan]

It worked out well for some people I know.

...and with regards to the guys who did the TR+line training and didn't get a job, you must remember that buying a TR+line hours does not make you "owed" a job in any way, you MUST ATTAIN A GOOD STANDARD. A lot of the guys who aren't employed are pretty gash.

[The Mixmaster]

Tolan- I'm just intrigued as to how you know that those that weren't employed were "pretty gash". Did you fly with them?

I'm staggered that people would even consider paying such vast sums of money to work. You're not even working for free, you're paying good money to work!! Do you see doctor's paying for their junior doctor years, or solicitors paying for their training contract? Time people strapped on a pair and stopped getting so desparate. Shame on ATP who run this scheme, making money out of starry eyed, ill informed cadets.

[potkettleblack]

It worked out well for some people I know.

You are right, it DID. ie: we are talking in a historical sense now. Only a few years ago when you did a TR at a well established outfit such as GECAT (as just one example) there were airlines falling over themselves to grab you. You still needed to pass the interviews and entrance tests but working hard on your type rating course and being easy to get along with went a long way to getting a nod from the TRTO.

Times have changed now. Sure sign up for these sorts of deals if you want. But do yourself a favour and put together a wee business plan and see if you will actually get a return on your money. You might just get the hours you signed up for but it will be winter soon enough and the charter outfit won't need you then. No doubt there will be promises of work coming your way in the future and to just hang tight. But as you sit out the winter looking forward to jumping back into the RHS the following summer there will be another bunch of wannabes ready to part with cash and fly for free. The partner airlines might even figure that you will be stale now not having flown for six months. They will have to roster you some sim time and an OPC and then some time with a line trainer. Then there will be a line check. This will all add to their costs. Whereas some young whipper snapper will happily pass them a wad of cash to cover their outlay.

The likes of CTC will start to market their holding pool to any takers adding more competition into the mix. The chances of you getting a gig again will be slim unless you want to throw more of the folding stuff at them.

So what do you do then? Head east and fly for some outfit who thinks that compliance with an MEL is nice to have but its okay to turn a blind eye just to keep things going and deferring defects is the order of the day. That MSA's are for girls and its okay to fly a destabilised approach.

The sad fact is that is where your careers are heading. Do yourself a favour and save your money. Keep your hand in at flying in any way possible and wait out the recession and get into a decent outfit where your life expectancy is assured.

[Kirks gusset]

Curiously I don't see a whole bunch of "shame on you" pointed at Eagle Jet or other SSTR line training providers, one could be forgiven for thinking that there could be some sour grapes around! In any event, as numerous contributors have pointed out, it is a personal choice and I guess the pressure to move forward and at least consolidate on the previous training plays a big part. Like Avenger, I doubt that we will ever see a return to the "Old ways", if you are financially able, I would have a stab at these schemes, goes without saying to get a couple of recommendations first

[favete linguis]

....you MUST ATTAIN A GOOD STANDARD. A lot of the guys who aren't employed are pretty gash.

What a load of shyte.

A lot of those employed are pretty gash too. How many failed their LST first time and are now back at easyJet, compared to those that passed and still looking for ATP to fulfill their promises?

[The Mixmaster]

Kirks Gusset - Shame on Eaglejet and other SSTR schemes as well. No forgiveness for thinking sour grapes. Personally I wouldn't touch these schemes or anything similiar with my bank managers bargepole. YOU ARE PAYING TO WORK.

[TheBeak]

I know I can add value to any airline without making it in the form of money paid up front. People who pay for these schemes know that they can't and this is there only way in. It's this way or the highway for them - driving a bus.