Airline Training Partnership (Merged)
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Hi Everyone
I was also part of the ATP scheme and agree completely with Dee's post. The training I received from the EasyJet Captains was second to none and from my training records I received high praise.
After getting first time passes and high averages in all the ground school exams and flight tests it was not enough to get in the front door of an airline. I decided that if I was to get a type rating, I would choose the Airbus and that line experience was vital. I have hit industry at a very low point but I will continue to work hard and focus on my main goal which is to fly.
Kind regards and safe flying
Philip Bradley
I was also part of the ATP scheme and agree completely with Dee's post. The training I received from the EasyJet Captains was second to none and from my training records I received high praise.
After getting first time passes and high averages in all the ground school exams and flight tests it was not enough to get in the front door of an airline. I decided that if I was to get a type rating, I would choose the Airbus and that line experience was vital. I have hit industry at a very low point but I will continue to work hard and focus on my main goal which is to fly.
Kind regards and safe flying
Philip Bradley
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"That's really all I want to say..... sorry its been a bit long winded, but I think everybody has missed the most major point here - what the industry economic climate is like!"
The climate for wannabees right now is appalling.
On the ATP website the patronising advertising tells you otherwise.
They are lieing to their potential customers to try to get them to part with their hard earned cash.
This economic downturn has been forecast for.. a year? at least? Personally I think it's immoral for ATP to take so much cash off of you when the likelihood of getting a job is, and has been for as long as this scheme has been going, very limited.
The climate for wannabees right now is appalling.
On the ATP website the patronising advertising tells you otherwise.
They are lieing to their potential customers to try to get them to part with their hard earned cash.
This economic downturn has been forecast for.. a year? at least? Personally I think it's immoral for ATP to take so much cash off of you when the likelihood of getting a job is, and has been for as long as this scheme has been going, very limited.
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ps. ATP have not gone bankrupt, up in flames, up in smoke etc etc so thanks to all the scaremongering people out there who enjoy putting about rumours to destroy peoples and students livelihoods, its our lives you are playing with and I will thank you all kindly to allow us to make our own decisions may they be good or bad
And what do you think paying to fly for easyJet was doing to FO and SFO's livelihoods?
You seem to miss the point from the FO's and SFO's already in easyJet whom you are poaching hours and money from: I'm glad you didn't get a job with easyJet.
Screwballs
All I'm saying is that I couldn't believe it when my friend who's been on the ATP course told me they were asked to give positive feedback on PPRUNE and include their real name at the end of the post.
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As I said yesterday,
They had their contract terminated by easyJet. They will not be around very long now.
In the current market they will not survive. I cannot see any keen pilot wannabe getting a loan from the bank to pay for a type rating, job or no job at the end of it.
They have no students for next year, as they have not booked any simulator. They have just completed their final course.
They will not be missed by anyone in easyJet for sure.
Enough said.
They had their contract terminated by easyJet. They will not be around very long now.
In the current market they will not survive. I cannot see any keen pilot wannabe getting a loan from the bank to pay for a type rating, job or no job at the end of it.
They have no students for next year, as they have not booked any simulator. They have just completed their final course.
They will not be missed by anyone in easyJet for sure.
Enough said.
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All I'm saying is that I couldn't believe it when my friend who's been on the ATP course told me they were asked to give positive feedback on PPRuNe and include their real name at the end of the post.
What a load of drivel. Your post is completely out of order.
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Caveat emptor, caveat emptor, caveat emptor!
Having clicked through their advertisment, and having read this thread, what is the complaint?
You appear to contract for a type rating with a limited amount of "line" training. Are they not providing this?
They advertise that this course will enable your CV to supposedly offer more than another inexperienced pilot without a similar type rating and limited line training? Well it might if a potential employer was actually looking at applications at this level.
I am having some trouble finding the word "Guarantee" in respect of the arguments that are being levelled.
When it comes to the advertising that companies engage in to promote their products there are statutes and regulations that govern the subject. Nevertheless it is a creative industry, that resources individuals aspirations, desires, and perceived needs, in order to market it's products. It is up to the purchaser to research and decide if they really want to purchase the product. If they are not sure they should read the first line of this post and repeat it over and over until they either are sure, or the urge passes.
Businesses need to survive, and whilst nobody would advocate that they do so on the back of anything fraudulant or illegal, it is ridiculous to suggest that such behaviour is a result of the customers disappointment with their own unrealistic expectations.
There are a lot of generalisations being thrown into the air on this thread. What is it specifically that this company has done wrong, that is evidenced by their advertising?
Having clicked through their advertisment, and having read this thread, what is the complaint?
You appear to contract for a type rating with a limited amount of "line" training. Are they not providing this?
They advertise that this course will enable your CV to supposedly offer more than another inexperienced pilot without a similar type rating and limited line training? Well it might if a potential employer was actually looking at applications at this level.
I am having some trouble finding the word "Guarantee" in respect of the arguments that are being levelled.
When it comes to the advertising that companies engage in to promote their products there are statutes and regulations that govern the subject. Nevertheless it is a creative industry, that resources individuals aspirations, desires, and perceived needs, in order to market it's products. It is up to the purchaser to research and decide if they really want to purchase the product. If they are not sure they should read the first line of this post and repeat it over and over until they either are sure, or the urge passes.
Businesses need to survive, and whilst nobody would advocate that they do so on the back of anything fraudulant or illegal, it is ridiculous to suggest that such behaviour is a result of the customers disappointment with their own unrealistic expectations.
There are a lot of generalisations being thrown into the air on this thread. What is it specifically that this company has done wrong, that is evidenced by their advertising?
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I think you'll find the major gripe here is that these girls and guys are paying to sit in the RHS of a jet during a revenue generating flight for 150hrs. That undermines every other pilot who is actually trying to make a living off the very same thing! This can only bait airlines into squeezing the pay and reducing the benefits from real pilots! Not good for the industry and your average hard working pilot in general, especially in these hard times.
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Yes I understand that aspect, and the gripe from those quarters, however that is not a case of this company doing anything that justifies some of the complaints being levelled here. That particular criticism is one to be levelled at the airline.
Given that the insurers and the regulators are happy to allow pilots with these levels of experience to carry out this type of operation (and they clearly are, provided an "experienced" pilot is in the left seat,) then neither the airline nor the training provider, nor the individual "purchasor", seems to be doing anything wrong? I am not advocating the morality of anything here, simply questioning those who seem to be suggesting and indeed stating that this company is in breach of anything contained in the contract they enter into with the buyer. Taking that further, I am not defending this company as such, but simply asking where is the evidence to support some of these statements that they have done anything unlawful?
It seems that there is a hardcore of Pilot wannabees, who seriously believe that any organisation can provide them with guarantees that will satisfy their often completely unrealistic aspirations and expectations, simply because they are naive or fail to do any adequate research, or refuse to believe anything other than what they want to believe.
Given that the insurers and the regulators are happy to allow pilots with these levels of experience to carry out this type of operation (and they clearly are, provided an "experienced" pilot is in the left seat,) then neither the airline nor the training provider, nor the individual "purchasor", seems to be doing anything wrong? I am not advocating the morality of anything here, simply questioning those who seem to be suggesting and indeed stating that this company is in breach of anything contained in the contract they enter into with the buyer. Taking that further, I am not defending this company as such, but simply asking where is the evidence to support some of these statements that they have done anything unlawful?
It seems that there is a hardcore of Pilot wannabees, who seriously believe that any organisation can provide them with guarantees that will satisfy their often completely unrealistic aspirations and expectations, simply because they are naive or fail to do any adequate research, or refuse to believe anything other than what they want to believe.
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RAF Offer
Kangy,
If the RAF offered you a place flying their fast jets at approx £40k, in the current climate, why not snap their hand off and then look for the Airline job a few years down the line when the industry picks up??
If the RAF offered you a place flying their fast jets at approx £40k, in the current climate, why not snap their hand off and then look for the Airline job a few years down the line when the industry picks up??
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Am I confident that I'll get a job once it picks up?
Very confident.
Very confident.
Even during the hey day of the boom BA still required 500hrs on type unless you were one of the lucky few that came through the integrated ranks.
If your not careful you will end up being one of the many journeymen out there trawling the world in search of your hours. A few hours for free here and there or a short term contract here and there to get a few bob. Seniority and terms and conditions will be things that you can only dream of. Good luck.
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????
A question to darkstar513 and kangy.
If you both entered into this scheme before the world fell over as you say, then why did you not apply to Ryanair where for the same price you would of got a rating on the 737 and a job to go with it???
If you both entered into this scheme before the world fell over as you say, then why did you not apply to Ryanair where for the same price you would of got a rating on the 737 and a job to go with it???
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obviously being told you are fast jet material after only an aptitude test gives you the mentality that a job at ryanair is far too inferior! Along with TP opportunities with flybe who were heavily recruiting...
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OK guys
Now this is exactly the kind of behaviour that stops people posting on here.... nothing but bitter bitc*y guys, who've probably had 'silver spoon service' and have nothing but bad things to say about anything - if that's how the industry leaves you I really hope to hell that I don't turn out like you guys!
The RAF assessment was years ago - again you guys judge before knowing any of the facts.... tut tut
My personal situation is my own business, how long its taken me and for what personal family reasons. Rest assured its been a VERY difficult journey, with some difficult decisions but asked to make them again I would do the same.
I am not stupid - do you really assume that I would think I would compare to guys with thousands of hours on type? Get real and stop trying to take cheap shots!
I have treated ATP as a training provider - nothing different to other flight schools I have gone to. You pay your money, get a flight rating be it a PPL, CPL, Multi, IR, or even TR, have some fun times, get some good training and build some hours - whats so different? I decided to go to easy as its GOOD QUALITY TRAINING, so I am to be blamed for wanted something worthwhile instead of some cheap outfit with bad standards?
And as far as taking hours away from guys.... get real, we all know how other charter airlines have had to take over flights for easy over the summer due to lack of crew - added to the fact I was based mainly in Lyon for my line training where not many other easy fo's wanted to be, away from home for a whole week
If you have a real problem with an employer providing a TRAINING SERVICE, then take it up with your employer, not somebody who pays for and receives a service.
Burger - funnily enough I did not 'rip their hands off' because weirdly it takes a little longer than a few months to do your PPL, CPL, ATPLs, ME, IR & TR hence it was a little while ago we are talking about here....
320 series - your talking complete rubbish btw.... there's still people waiting for the base training and haven't even started the line training yet lol - please get your facts right before posting negative lies - thank you
Pot kettle - easy have not taken any pilots on period! Oddly enough recruitment has been frozen (a) they'd be contradicting themselves if they took us on wouldn't you think (b) I did mention this in my original post, sorry didn't I make this clear enough for you?
As far as Ryanair go..... I've always wanted to fly the Airbus - personal choice and was willing to go the extra mile for the Airbus route as I believe (personal choice so please don't get all up in arms) this is the better plane to progress your career in.
Aerospace - Flybe are recruiting like mad? really?
From their website applications have been closed for ages and on ppjn this is what it says;
"Just announced an OAT/Flybe assisted pilot training for 4 candidates for 2008. Recruitment to Q400 only and from all schools but integrated or one stop modular preferred. "
That pretty much excludes anybody who is either not from OAT or have gone to a one stop shop modular or integrated - again a little restrictive wouldn't you say?
Sorry to say guys this is the last I will be saying on this matter - there is no need to personally attack decent hard working people who are simply trying to better themselves in this life.
Please have a deeper look at what you have to pay through CTC and other schemes, because I did and didn't find there to be that much difference. ATP suited my needs and situation so I chose them - it seems to me that if you guys had your way I wouldn't be allowed to make PERSONAL choices anymore - commies at heart by any chance?
I really cant be bothered with the negative, bit*hy, scaremongering, lying, rumours (lol I could go on for hours here about the bad stuff) so I leave you all to it - that is to really grind people down because it makes you feel big and/or important...... hmmmm sounds a little like bullying to me, lots of people not listening to both sides of an argument and all ganging up on one person lol!
Kindest regards and HAPPY flying!
Dee
Now this is exactly the kind of behaviour that stops people posting on here.... nothing but bitter bitc*y guys, who've probably had 'silver spoon service' and have nothing but bad things to say about anything - if that's how the industry leaves you I really hope to hell that I don't turn out like you guys!
The RAF assessment was years ago - again you guys judge before knowing any of the facts.... tut tut
My personal situation is my own business, how long its taken me and for what personal family reasons. Rest assured its been a VERY difficult journey, with some difficult decisions but asked to make them again I would do the same.
I am not stupid - do you really assume that I would think I would compare to guys with thousands of hours on type? Get real and stop trying to take cheap shots!
I have treated ATP as a training provider - nothing different to other flight schools I have gone to. You pay your money, get a flight rating be it a PPL, CPL, Multi, IR, or even TR, have some fun times, get some good training and build some hours - whats so different? I decided to go to easy as its GOOD QUALITY TRAINING, so I am to be blamed for wanted something worthwhile instead of some cheap outfit with bad standards?
And as far as taking hours away from guys.... get real, we all know how other charter airlines have had to take over flights for easy over the summer due to lack of crew - added to the fact I was based mainly in Lyon for my line training where not many other easy fo's wanted to be, away from home for a whole week
If you have a real problem with an employer providing a TRAINING SERVICE, then take it up with your employer, not somebody who pays for and receives a service.
Burger - funnily enough I did not 'rip their hands off' because weirdly it takes a little longer than a few months to do your PPL, CPL, ATPLs, ME, IR & TR hence it was a little while ago we are talking about here....
320 series - your talking complete rubbish btw.... there's still people waiting for the base training and haven't even started the line training yet lol - please get your facts right before posting negative lies - thank you
Pot kettle - easy have not taken any pilots on period! Oddly enough recruitment has been frozen (a) they'd be contradicting themselves if they took us on wouldn't you think (b) I did mention this in my original post, sorry didn't I make this clear enough for you?
As far as Ryanair go..... I've always wanted to fly the Airbus - personal choice and was willing to go the extra mile for the Airbus route as I believe (personal choice so please don't get all up in arms) this is the better plane to progress your career in.
Aerospace - Flybe are recruiting like mad? really?
From their website applications have been closed for ages and on ppjn this is what it says;
"Just announced an OAT/Flybe assisted pilot training for 4 candidates for 2008. Recruitment to Q400 only and from all schools but integrated or one stop modular preferred. "
That pretty much excludes anybody who is either not from OAT or have gone to a one stop shop modular or integrated - again a little restrictive wouldn't you say?
Sorry to say guys this is the last I will be saying on this matter - there is no need to personally attack decent hard working people who are simply trying to better themselves in this life.
Please have a deeper look at what you have to pay through CTC and other schemes, because I did and didn't find there to be that much difference. ATP suited my needs and situation so I chose them - it seems to me that if you guys had your way I wouldn't be allowed to make PERSONAL choices anymore - commies at heart by any chance?
I really cant be bothered with the negative, bit*hy, scaremongering, lying, rumours (lol I could go on for hours here about the bad stuff) so I leave you all to it - that is to really grind people down because it makes you feel big and/or important...... hmmmm sounds a little like bullying to me, lots of people not listening to both sides of an argument and all ganging up on one person lol!
Kindest regards and HAPPY flying!
Dee
Last edited by kangy; 27th Nov 2008 at 02:27. Reason: typo's
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Now this is exactly the kind of behaviour that stops people posting on here
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Kangy, you have to expect a few bitter replies, the ATP scheme is fairly unpopular within EZY. At the moment while ATP guys are still doing line training/flying, there are a lot of EZY FO's who are sat around doing nothing because the flights are crewed by ATP guys. I personally don't care as I am lazy but a lot of guys need more money and they are losing out to your colleagues! We wouldn’t be doing a lot granted, but we are now doing even less!
Also what has really upset people is 22 guys who had completed all their training and had been on line for 6 months were let go by EZY who said we were over-crewed. Basically it can be viewed that these 22 chaps have been replaced by the ATP pay as you go mob. They should be brought back for the summer but in the meantime they have 6 months without a job while people who have paid to fly occupy the RHS!!!
Personally I think this is appalling and so do many of my colleagues. I know you personally didn't wake up one morning and think, "hmmm let’s put some guys out of work" but people paying for training has contributed to this. I am not having a go at you because how were you to know what would happen? But 22 people are struggling financially now because of this scheme. In fairness it wasn't ATP who made the decision to let the full time guys go but if times are tight who do you want flying? Someone you pay or someone paying?!!?!? This is what these courses cause! If times were different and things were going well for airlines this wouldn’t be an issue I bet, but unfortunately things have gone a bit wrong economically to say the least and this scheme is impacting on full-time crew. Sorry but you won't find a lot of love on here as a result.
Once again I am not having a go but just trying to explain why you might find some people being a bit short with you!
There are a lot of people who not be sad in the slightest to see this scheme go tits up.
All the best getting a job, glad you enjoyed your time with us.
Also what has really upset people is 22 guys who had completed all their training and had been on line for 6 months were let go by EZY who said we were over-crewed. Basically it can be viewed that these 22 chaps have been replaced by the ATP pay as you go mob. They should be brought back for the summer but in the meantime they have 6 months without a job while people who have paid to fly occupy the RHS!!!
Personally I think this is appalling and so do many of my colleagues. I know you personally didn't wake up one morning and think, "hmmm let’s put some guys out of work" but people paying for training has contributed to this. I am not having a go at you because how were you to know what would happen? But 22 people are struggling financially now because of this scheme. In fairness it wasn't ATP who made the decision to let the full time guys go but if times are tight who do you want flying? Someone you pay or someone paying?!!?!? This is what these courses cause! If times were different and things were going well for airlines this wouldn’t be an issue I bet, but unfortunately things have gone a bit wrong economically to say the least and this scheme is impacting on full-time crew. Sorry but you won't find a lot of love on here as a result.
Once again I am not having a go but just trying to explain why you might find some people being a bit short with you!
There are a lot of people who not be sad in the slightest to see this scheme go tits up.
All the best getting a job, glad you enjoyed your time with us.