Salt in an already deep wound!
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Try relocating
Have you tried relocating. After trying for a couple of months without any luck i went back to my country and there were jobs on offer and so there i am didn't have to pay for type rating and good money as well. some of those i finished with went to Greece, India, Baltic you name it.
If you are young and you have no family tying you down then i suggest its an option worth considering.
If you are young and you have no family tying you down then i suggest its an option worth considering.
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Glad it helped
Just to say I'm glad my little post helped and try not to stress about it all - the world isn't going to stop flying around in aeroplanes it's just the rate of growth has slowed for the next 12-18 months. For some reason I do wonder if this could all blow over quite quickly - faster than the analysts think. As an example the recent cut in mortgage rates for anyone on a tracker deal with a sizeable mortgage (which is most people I know!) has just given many of us a far bigger pay rise than our employer this year - I reckon a 2% cut in interest rates is worth £400 a month net to me. People have got used to changing their mobile phone every 12 months, upgrading to the latest IPod and wanting the latest playstation. They have also got used to flying around Europe on aeroplanes at the drop of a hat cheaply. That consumer behaviour won't change in most people because they don't want to give up their 'lifestyle'.
Clear skies to all of you,
Desk-pilot
Clear skies to all of you,
Desk-pilot
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Nice thread... Easy to have a go at people who come here to say their master plan hasn't work out yetwe should all learn something out of it.
A plan in aviation is just that... Reality to come, is usually something else (better or worse).
So talking about our difficulties or disappointments is a first step to find a solution. To skippy, I say well done for coming out
as you are far from being the only one. No doubt some readers will share what you are going through... Like it was said in a previous post though, it is just how it has always been for most people, myself included.
Not that I ever thought I ll get a RHS on big jet with my 200 hours but the truth was that I knew little about commercial aviation and its reality. So like many I dreamt, hoped and worked my way around a system where a passion for flying may seem like the least important requirement when one wants to get a job.
But with time, luck, work, joys and failures, I managed to log more hours, then onto bigger aeroplanes for better wages etc... Years down the line, all is ok and I even got to fly pretty much all I had wanted to (Bush, Boeings, Bizjets, gliders...) and have little regrets. In fact even the times similar to which you are going through don't seem so bad anymore. Mainly because I stuck with it, remained positive and when I had to do some other jobs (non flying ones but always aviation related), I always got a lot out of it. Be some very good friends, great times (if you see what I mean here
), a better knowledge of various sides of this harsh industry and a lot more, professional contacts etc...
There are some things I would have done differently but not many (like in an effort to make things right, don't dump a job offer for somebody who is trying to leave you
... A very commandable thing but ultimately a disaster).
So my advice to you is... Make up your own mind about things. Don't take your pals (or mine) advice as the magic solution to all your problems. What works for one might not work for the other one and vice versa.
Keep the faith, the hours coming (even if it is an hour once in the blue moon), networking and be what I call... A patient impatient. Somebody who knows that sitting on his bum will bring no success but also somebody who knows when to wait.
As an example, I would say go and knock on doors (small local outfits, companies in a different part of the world, whatever idea you get ...), make yourself known but don't Piss Anybody Off. Be smart, the kind of guy we like to hang around with who allies a good spirit with professionalism.
So to you and the others, the very best of luck. Hang on there and you will get there too.
A plan in aviation is just that... Reality to come, is usually something else (better or worse).
So talking about our difficulties or disappointments is a first step to find a solution. To skippy, I say well done for coming out
as you are far from being the only one. No doubt some readers will share what you are going through... Like it was said in a previous post though, it is just how it has always been for most people, myself included.Not that I ever thought I ll get a RHS on big jet with my 200 hours but the truth was that I knew little about commercial aviation and its reality. So like many I dreamt, hoped and worked my way around a system where a passion for flying may seem like the least important requirement when one wants to get a job.
But with time, luck, work, joys and failures, I managed to log more hours, then onto bigger aeroplanes for better wages etc... Years down the line, all is ok and I even got to fly pretty much all I had wanted to (Bush, Boeings, Bizjets, gliders...) and have little regrets. In fact even the times similar to which you are going through don't seem so bad anymore. Mainly because I stuck with it, remained positive and when I had to do some other jobs (non flying ones but always aviation related), I always got a lot out of it. Be some very good friends, great times (if you see what I mean here
), a better knowledge of various sides of this harsh industry and a lot more, professional contacts etc...There are some things I would have done differently but not many (like in an effort to make things right, don't dump a job offer for somebody who is trying to leave you
... A very commandable thing but ultimately a disaster).So my advice to you is... Make up your own mind about things. Don't take your pals (or mine) advice as the magic solution to all your problems. What works for one might not work for the other one and vice versa.
Keep the faith, the hours coming (even if it is an hour once in the blue moon), networking and be what I call... A patient impatient. Somebody who knows that sitting on his bum will bring no success but also somebody who knows when to wait.
As an example, I would say go and knock on doors (small local outfits, companies in a different part of the world, whatever idea you get ...), make yourself known but don't Piss Anybody Off. Be smart, the kind of guy we like to hang around with who allies a good spirit with professionalism.
So to you and the others, the very best of luck. Hang on there and you will get there too.
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Nice to see some constructive (if realistic) posts here. It's horses for courses. Well done deskpilot - you've done the right thing for you and your family - all the very best.
Thoughts about this crisis blowing over quickly are akin to the chillingly naive popularly spoken sentiment about WW2 that "it'll all be over by Christmas".
From 1990 to 1995 in the last serious recession there were virtually no jobs for wannabes. If you know and understand this historical fact you begin to understand why people like me have been so strenuous in efforts to warn people about training under debt. The latest spin being spun is that this recession will be entered quickly but over quickly. This won't happen. It will be deep and it will be long and just like last time I expect to see 10,000hr jet captains driving post office vans. It might even be me.
SSTR's are not going to go away. Flying training has become much cheaper in real terms than it was a decade ago and thus the bar has been moved up. You don't believe that but it is true. Over time extra hours and hoops and tests have always been added to the training process. Employers have always expected candidates to pay more and shoulder more risk year on year. The point where decent money is earned is always slightly further away than it used to be.
This is a profession in relative decline.
That's a fact.
WWW
From 1990 to 1995 in the last serious recession there were virtually no jobs for wannabes. If you know and understand this historical fact you begin to understand why people like me have been so strenuous in efforts to warn people about training under debt. The latest spin being spun is that this recession will be entered quickly but over quickly. This won't happen. It will be deep and it will be long and just like last time I expect to see 10,000hr jet captains driving post office vans. It might even be me.
SSTR's are not going to go away. Flying training has become much cheaper in real terms than it was a decade ago and thus the bar has been moved up. You don't believe that but it is true. Over time extra hours and hoops and tests have always been added to the training process. Employers have always expected candidates to pay more and shoulder more risk year on year. The point where decent money is earned is always slightly further away than it used to be.
This is a profession in relative decline.
That's a fact.
WWW
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In reply to the 4th post in this thread.
No its not "sour grapes" at all just a realistic view of this industry. Remember most of us who currently are in either the right or left know how difficult that elusive first job is to get. I was searching for a position soon after Sept 11 so have the t shirt thanks!
Staying current is the first priority, how you do that is up to the individual, instructing is the usual way. That leads on to opportunities in the air taxi world when you have built hours and experience. Its not the only way to go about it but its the usual route to the right hand seat.
After 30 months on a turbo prop I start a jet rating next month, it took just over 5 years to get that "jet job". That in the majority of cases is the time it take to a shiny jet, sometimes less, sometimes more.
No its not "sour grapes" at all just a realistic view of this industry. Remember most of us who currently are in either the right or left know how difficult that elusive first job is to get. I was searching for a position soon after Sept 11 so have the t shirt thanks!
Staying current is the first priority, how you do that is up to the individual, instructing is the usual way. That leads on to opportunities in the air taxi world when you have built hours and experience. Its not the only way to go about it but its the usual route to the right hand seat.
After 30 months on a turbo prop I start a jet rating next month, it took just over 5 years to get that "jet job". That in the majority of cases is the time it take to a shiny jet, sometimes less, sometimes more.
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Give WWW a break. Fine he is a bit doom and gloom but he is only trying to help. Maybe a slightly pessimistic view but what’s wrong with that??? If you went to a doctor and he said, “Right, sorry, it’s a really bad case of cancer but here is what we need to do.” Would you listen and take the info on board or reply and say,” nah, its fine, I have the flu give me an aspirin and I will be ok in the morning?”
I sometimes think on here people don't want to hear anything that conflicts with their rosy mental model of things!! However some people with a doom and gloom mental model may not want to hear the positives floating about.
Although I don't think there are many. Lots more job cuts announced this morning!!
I think a lot of credit is due to Skippy here. He has put a post on reflecting what is going on for a lot of people and it is important for potential trainees to read. Don't expect to walk straight into the RHS of a jet. If you auto-filter out any warnings from WWW and others all you get is I GOT A JET JOB IN 2 WEEKS type stuff. This of course then confirms what the FTO marketing dept is telling you. It all sounds quite positive. Train in the downturn, it will be over as you graduate and the A380's start arriving at all airlines. Why would you doubt what you are being told (should be sold) if you keep hearing positives from everyone..........
If a few more people posted saying they were finding it a struggle to find the promised jet job then it might give a few hopefuls some extra info and allow them to plan better. I bet there are many more out there. It’s just that we normally only hear the success stories (but let’s be honest they are nicer to read!!).
Whatever happens over the next couple of years it’s going to be a roller coaster ride. No-one can say for certain what is going to happen. Too many variables to consider. You have to make your own call and buy your ticket when you think it’s the right time.
I sometimes think on here people don't want to hear anything that conflicts with their rosy mental model of things!! However some people with a doom and gloom mental model may not want to hear the positives floating about.
Although I don't think there are many. Lots more job cuts announced this morning!!
I think a lot of credit is due to Skippy here. He has put a post on reflecting what is going on for a lot of people and it is important for potential trainees to read. Don't expect to walk straight into the RHS of a jet. If you auto-filter out any warnings from WWW and others all you get is I GOT A JET JOB IN 2 WEEKS type stuff. This of course then confirms what the FTO marketing dept is telling you. It all sounds quite positive. Train in the downturn, it will be over as you graduate and the A380's start arriving at all airlines. Why would you doubt what you are being told (should be sold) if you keep hearing positives from everyone..........
If a few more people posted saying they were finding it a struggle to find the promised jet job then it might give a few hopefuls some extra info and allow them to plan better. I bet there are many more out there. It’s just that we normally only hear the success stories (but let’s be honest they are nicer to read!!).
Whatever happens over the next couple of years it’s going to be a roller coaster ride. No-one can say for certain what is going to happen. Too many variables to consider. You have to make your own call and buy your ticket when you think it’s the right time.
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Just a few thoughts
WWW, Your point is well made and I'm old enough to remember the last serious recession and the one before that when my final board interview for BA Cadet was cancelled due to the first Gulf War and by the time the scheme reopened years later I was too old for the scheme.
I am most definately not encouraging anyone to start training now, however I do feel that the media has perhaps blown the financial crisis out of proportion. For a bunch of overpaid city bankers they are being hit hard (and about time too) but for the normal working man with no savings and only debts in fact so far it's pretty much all good news - a huge cut in interest rates has meant hundreds less a month being paid on the mortgage and as long as you aren't made redundant the 'real economy' is (so far) relatively untouched. I can't honestly see people's behaviour changing that dramatically - witness the bustling shops every weekend. I don't know about your airline but mine (Flybe) are certainly doing quite nicely at present and my wife's (BA) after initially panicking when the fuel price shot up are now indicating things aren't as bad as they feared and are already calling people again out of the hold pool.
I certainly foresee the next 12-18 months being tough for recruitment but I just don't see the 5 year recession you do.
Anyway, I suspect if either of us were that good at predicting the future we'd be driving a DB9 and working for a hedge fund! Incidentally I completely agree with your point about this being a profession in decline.
With kind regards,
Desk-pilot
I am most definately not encouraging anyone to start training now, however I do feel that the media has perhaps blown the financial crisis out of proportion. For a bunch of overpaid city bankers they are being hit hard (and about time too) but for the normal working man with no savings and only debts in fact so far it's pretty much all good news - a huge cut in interest rates has meant hundreds less a month being paid on the mortgage and as long as you aren't made redundant the 'real economy' is (so far) relatively untouched. I can't honestly see people's behaviour changing that dramatically - witness the bustling shops every weekend. I don't know about your airline but mine (Flybe) are certainly doing quite nicely at present and my wife's (BA) after initially panicking when the fuel price shot up are now indicating things aren't as bad as they feared and are already calling people again out of the hold pool.
I certainly foresee the next 12-18 months being tough for recruitment but I just don't see the 5 year recession you do.
Anyway, I suspect if either of us were that good at predicting the future we'd be driving a DB9 and working for a hedge fund! Incidentally I completely agree with your point about this being a profession in decline.
With kind regards,
Desk-pilot
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Skippy,
My respect for posting here and publicly admitting a mistake you might have made. Well, let me rephrase it, uhem, let's face it, going integrated was a mistake no doubt. However, I do believe despite the economic situation SE jobs are out there, only thing is they don't come easy. I know my gliding club had a tug plane and there always was the prospect of flying that plane but for doing so one had to have the silver gliding certificate if I am not mistaken. My gliding club was and is desperately looking for new young members and consequently for instructors, too. Obviously, that would be a no-salary job but one gets to fly on a regular and it could be put on a CV.
Alternatively, try going abroad as one previous poster already mentioned. I know most English native speakers are not too good at speaking other languages for obvious reasons but there are places in Europe where airlines are actively recruiting low-timers right now, e.g. Germany. And not only that, their screenings can be done to a great extend in English. However, to be a candidate for being offered a position you will have to be able to communicate at least somewhat in German.
I myself completed my training this year and luckily was able to get a job flying SE VFR in the UK (no instructing). It is not what I want to do for the remainder of my life but it pays the bills (well, kind of) and I get to fly regularly. Don't give up, instead try even harder, and look particularly for the jobs at the bottom of the ladder. All the best to you. Roll safe.
My respect for posting here and publicly admitting a mistake you might have made. Well, let me rephrase it, uhem, let's face it, going integrated was a mistake no doubt. However, I do believe despite the economic situation SE jobs are out there, only thing is they don't come easy. I know my gliding club had a tug plane and there always was the prospect of flying that plane but for doing so one had to have the silver gliding certificate if I am not mistaken. My gliding club was and is desperately looking for new young members and consequently for instructors, too. Obviously, that would be a no-salary job but one gets to fly on a regular and it could be put on a CV.
Alternatively, try going abroad as one previous poster already mentioned. I know most English native speakers are not too good at speaking other languages for obvious reasons but there are places in Europe where airlines are actively recruiting low-timers right now, e.g. Germany. And not only that, their screenings can be done to a great extend in English. However, to be a candidate for being offered a position you will have to be able to communicate at least somewhat in German.
I myself completed my training this year and luckily was able to get a job flying SE VFR in the UK (no instructing). It is not what I want to do for the remainder of my life but it pays the bills (well, kind of) and I get to fly regularly. Don't give up, instead try even harder, and look particularly for the jobs at the bottom of the ladder. All the best to you. Roll safe.
The media, is anything, have totally ignored and underplayed this financial crisis. They still are. The public debt now being unleashed will place an entire future generation in shackles of higher taxes and lower growth. Our children will spend the better part of their working life paying off the debts we have accumulated in just 10 short hedonistic years. Many books will be written.
Deskpilot, do you accept that a recession now is afoot which will be at least equal to the 1990-91 recession?
If so do you accept that last time Wannabe jobs dried up for around five years?
If you accept those two points then, unless this time is different, there is likely to be a similar period of famine for Wannabes.
The actual recession may only last 12 months. But the >3million unemployed and subsequent lack of consumer confidence is what results in airline bankruptcy and oversupply of pilots. It takes a couple of years of normal growth just to soak up this oversupply of unemployed pilots.
WWW
ps Who says I don't have a DB9?
Deskpilot, do you accept that a recession now is afoot which will be at least equal to the 1990-91 recession?
If so do you accept that last time Wannabe jobs dried up for around five years?
If you accept those two points then, unless this time is different, there is likely to be a similar period of famine for Wannabes.
The actual recession may only last 12 months. But the >3million unemployed and subsequent lack of consumer confidence is what results in airline bankruptcy and oversupply of pilots. It takes a couple of years of normal growth just to soak up this oversupply of unemployed pilots.
WWW
ps Who says I don't have a DB9?
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Skippy - stop whingeing and do something about it! If don't want to or can't do anything about it get out of aviation. You need to wake and an smell the roses. Go look in the back of the latest FTN news. You will see that in 2006 the CAA issued over 1000 shiny new CPL(A)'s. How many of those people do you think have jobs now? And how many more have the school's churned out since.
At this moment in time you have low hours and you know precisely jack s**t about flying. A couple of winter seasons instructing and you might learn about de-icing an aircraft, flown a few instrument approaches for real, flown at night in marginal conditions in single engine pistons. Ever done an update to a set of Jepps? Whats the recommended minima for take off in a single engine piston as laid down in the UK AIP? Ever written the staff training section of a club flying order book? Get my drift?
I don't know a great deal more than you but I have spent the last 2 1/2 years working as a part time FI. With a little bit of experience the opportunity is now at hand for me to do some multi IFR flying. One thing leads to another in this game, but you have got to start somewhere and an FI in a 152 is no bad place.
It really does wind me up when I see people sitting here on PPRUNE moaning they spent all this money and there is no job for them! What did you expect was going to happen ? Someone was just gona walk up to you as you left the CAA building at Gatwick with your CPL in hand and say "here you are poor little thing come and fly my airbus".
Most of the people I have got to know over the past few years that are flying jets had to do between 1000-2000 hours in general aviation before they got their chance. Those that get jobs with 250 hours, even by going down the type rating route are still in the small minority.
This is the way it is in aviation, you start on the bottom of the ladder and you work your way up. Get used to it, get used to it fast, start flying and learning.
Finally, good luck.
At this moment in time you have low hours and you know precisely jack s**t about flying. A couple of winter seasons instructing and you might learn about de-icing an aircraft, flown a few instrument approaches for real, flown at night in marginal conditions in single engine pistons. Ever done an update to a set of Jepps? Whats the recommended minima for take off in a single engine piston as laid down in the UK AIP? Ever written the staff training section of a club flying order book? Get my drift?
I don't know a great deal more than you but I have spent the last 2 1/2 years working as a part time FI. With a little bit of experience the opportunity is now at hand for me to do some multi IFR flying. One thing leads to another in this game, but you have got to start somewhere and an FI in a 152 is no bad place.
It really does wind me up when I see people sitting here on PPRUNE moaning they spent all this money and there is no job for them! What did you expect was going to happen ? Someone was just gona walk up to you as you left the CAA building at Gatwick with your CPL in hand and say "here you are poor little thing come and fly my airbus".
Most of the people I have got to know over the past few years that are flying jets had to do between 1000-2000 hours in general aviation before they got their chance. Those that get jobs with 250 hours, even by going down the type rating route are still in the small minority.
This is the way it is in aviation, you start on the bottom of the ladder and you work your way up. Get used to it, get used to it fast, start flying and learning.
Finally, good luck.
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History repeats
A long time since i have posted on this forum and was in the first job hunting market but nothing seems to have changed.
Got my fatpl in 1999 with almost 300hrs! (modular and upgrade). With plan A failing (contact and promises from small regional airline meant nothing when they stopped all recruitment) spent most of 99 recieving reject letters - very demoralising.
Again most of my friends felt the same about the training organisations as you do now because all their promises of job hunting help, contacts, interviews etc faded to nothing on graduation.
MCC was just coming in so paid for that to help market myself. result nothing. Most Chief Pilots were unaware of it and when they were decided to conduct it as part of their own training.
At the time there were oportunities to get your own TR (shed 360etc) which a few of my collegues did, again to no avail.
Eventually took up instructing and this was the life saver the hours built up meant that I was eligable for the survey/air taxi market this meant that i was in a secure job when 9/11 came along and 2 years later in the right place for a regional TP job eventually leading to LH seat.
Facts - then it took most of my collegues nearly 2 years to get an airline job, with a recession this will be much much longer.
The training organisations did and always will try and sell an extra course a special asset of the school etc that will make you stand out from the crowd.
MOL making you pay for everything including the interview started some time ago, however beware paying for a TR that is not part of an airlines recruitment procedure. By that I mean I would not recomend buying a 737 rating and using that to market yourself - most training departments are wary of someone who has been trained elswhere to diferant standards.
Military axiom - no plan survives contact with the enemy, but in our business no plan survives contact with reality.
Hopefully your post will open the eyes for others before they spend large some of cash - but I doubt it.
As others have said: keep current, keep your finger on the pulse job wise and good luck.
Got my fatpl in 1999 with almost 300hrs! (modular and upgrade). With plan A failing (contact and promises from small regional airline meant nothing when they stopped all recruitment) spent most of 99 recieving reject letters - very demoralising.
Again most of my friends felt the same about the training organisations as you do now because all their promises of job hunting help, contacts, interviews etc faded to nothing on graduation.
MCC was just coming in so paid for that to help market myself. result nothing. Most Chief Pilots were unaware of it and when they were decided to conduct it as part of their own training.
At the time there were oportunities to get your own TR (shed 360etc) which a few of my collegues did, again to no avail.
Eventually took up instructing and this was the life saver the hours built up meant that I was eligable for the survey/air taxi market this meant that i was in a secure job when 9/11 came along and 2 years later in the right place for a regional TP job eventually leading to LH seat.
Facts - then it took most of my collegues nearly 2 years to get an airline job, with a recession this will be much much longer.
The training organisations did and always will try and sell an extra course a special asset of the school etc that will make you stand out from the crowd.
MOL making you pay for everything including the interview started some time ago, however beware paying for a TR that is not part of an airlines recruitment procedure. By that I mean I would not recomend buying a 737 rating and using that to market yourself - most training departments are wary of someone who has been trained elswhere to diferant standards.
Military axiom - no plan survives contact with the enemy, but in our business no plan survives contact with reality.
Hopefully your post will open the eyes for others before they spend large some of cash - but I doubt it.
As others have said: keep current, keep your finger on the pulse job wise and good luck.
SAWAYA - it's all too easy for you to tell someone to be quiet but are you offering any advice? If you don't like what you read don't bother responding with a pointless post which just wastes everybodys time and bandwidth.
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I agree with Student88, people post on here all the time to express their feelings and opinions but more so people post seeking advice. And if you could read between the lines the guy is also asking for some advice/help whilst expressing vulgarity of airline training school’s empty promises and misleading facts. He’s not asking for BA or Thomas Cook or any other high fliers, he’s asking for a job that makes 2 years of sheer hard work and an extreme amount of money bring home a simple pay check and a beginning.
Many of you say "take off your rose tinted glasses", "wake up an get on with it" and so on - sure there are no rose tinted glasses now, it was stated they began to fade a year on from starting the course but when your presented with figures and shown the "successful students in jobs within 6 months" board no-one would EVER think to look how many times students names were repeated on that board. And when flying is what you really want to do and the training is what you have to do to get that job no-one listens to the voice of reason or doubt until it is too late. And Skippy is not the only one to have made that mistake, everyone does it because people only hear what they want to hear and the airline training schools feed it to them.
Timzsta “Skippy - stop whingeing and do something about it! If don't want to or can't do anything about it get out of aviation. You need to wake and smell the roses.”
My rebuttal to this uncouth remark (and what I can only assume is an attempt to “wake” member Skippy up and get on with it so to speak) is this: it is so easy to type such things and give little consideration to what lengths the thread beginner has perhaps already gone to before even writing their first post.
I know for a fact that this member has applied for a job in Africa that would keep him away from his family for 5 weeks at a time just so that his training will have not gone completely to waste and to be able to bring home a pay check to help support his family. I think this is a very realistic member here and perhaps even (in another view) slightly desperate in the sense of not wanting to let that rosy dream completely fade away, although it’s pretty much gone. No-one would ever think that their training will leave them on some remote dusty airfield in the middle of Africa. Could any of you who have families, wives or partners imagine doing the same?
Also again very simple to say if you can’t get a job in aviation get out and get one else where. But realistically who wants to employ someone who hasn’t worked for 2 years? It is not as easy as it sounds.
If you have useful tips, advice, constructive suggestions then please post them here, and thank you to those who already have. I’m sure Skippy and many other low hours pilots would be exceptionally grateful. If you have something stroppy to write then I suggest you don’t waste the time or energy; I respect your opinions, really I do, but I don’t think it’s right to kick a man when he’s already down, I prefer to offer a hand especially if it gives them a chance of finding work in the UK and they can go home to their family at the end of the day.
Many of you say "take off your rose tinted glasses", "wake up an get on with it" and so on - sure there are no rose tinted glasses now, it was stated they began to fade a year on from starting the course but when your presented with figures and shown the "successful students in jobs within 6 months" board no-one would EVER think to look how many times students names were repeated on that board. And when flying is what you really want to do and the training is what you have to do to get that job no-one listens to the voice of reason or doubt until it is too late. And Skippy is not the only one to have made that mistake, everyone does it because people only hear what they want to hear and the airline training schools feed it to them.
Timzsta “Skippy - stop whingeing and do something about it! If don't want to or can't do anything about it get out of aviation. You need to wake and smell the roses.”
My rebuttal to this uncouth remark (and what I can only assume is an attempt to “wake” member Skippy up and get on with it so to speak) is this: it is so easy to type such things and give little consideration to what lengths the thread beginner has perhaps already gone to before even writing their first post.
I know for a fact that this member has applied for a job in Africa that would keep him away from his family for 5 weeks at a time just so that his training will have not gone completely to waste and to be able to bring home a pay check to help support his family. I think this is a very realistic member here and perhaps even (in another view) slightly desperate in the sense of not wanting to let that rosy dream completely fade away, although it’s pretty much gone. No-one would ever think that their training will leave them on some remote dusty airfield in the middle of Africa. Could any of you who have families, wives or partners imagine doing the same?
Also again very simple to say if you can’t get a job in aviation get out and get one else where. But realistically who wants to employ someone who hasn’t worked for 2 years? It is not as easy as it sounds.
If you have useful tips, advice, constructive suggestions then please post them here, and thank you to those who already have. I’m sure Skippy and many other low hours pilots would be exceptionally grateful. If you have something stroppy to write then I suggest you don’t waste the time or energy; I respect your opinions, really I do, but I don’t think it’s right to kick a man when he’s already down, I prefer to offer a hand especially if it gives them a chance of finding work in the UK and they can go home to their family at the end of the day.
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Tzimsha - Having made you views quite clear, why not go back to the original post and have a look at the question - he was asking about TRTO's and how much one is supposed to be expected to spend on one's training. I don't believe he fell for any FTO spin (pardon the pun). From what I can see, when "times is good" everyone gets a job; when they're not so good, modular guys with time (inc on type) may well get jobs as easily as integrated pilots, but 1) modular+hours building takes a year or two or three; 2) integrated low hours pilots will get jobs as FO's in airlines where they want relatively low cost hires and consistency of training. It seems to me to be a tradeoff - cost -v- time to qualify. The nearer it gets to 2-3 years after qualification to get a job, the more the cost gap narrows (i.e. the sooner one starts paying any loan off, the quicker it goes down) and I'm sure you'd all rather be in an airline job sooner if possible. By all means, give the benefit of your experience - BUT we can all find something to be bitter about without any help from others...! Good luck to you as well...
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To answer the points
Deskpilot, do you accept that a recession now is afoot which will be at least equal to the 1990-91 recession?
- I don't think it will be as prolonged as 90-91, but I do think it will last 12-18 months and that it will impact recruitment for the next 2-3 years.
I actually think the sad reality is that flying is a career more akin to being an actor or musician. There are far more people training than will ever make a living at it. It isn't marketed that way by the schools but if you accept that there are only around 8000-10000 commercial pilots in the UK then you can see how small the job market really is compared to other professions such as law, armed forces, IT, sales etc. In my view the training schools should be forced (by law) to publish their actual employment results - at least for one stop modular and integrated students. It wouldn't be hard for the airlines for example to feed back to the main schools when they hire a candidate from a particular school and for the school to collate the results. At least then people would go into training with their eyes open to the real statistics.
Training for this career is a high risk gamble even in the good times. In the bad times you might as well go to a casino.
To anyone looking for a job now I really do wish you good fortune, but the real point of my post was to say try not to let the flying thing make you miserable while you job hunt - it is believe it or not (and I say this after 18 months on the line) just a job at the end of the day. It can be very enjoyable and satisfying but also frustrating and tiring. I do like it a lot more than my old IT job, indeed I like it as much as anyone can reasonably expect to enjoy their work but it isn't quite as glamorous, well paid and glitzy as the outside world thinks it is and when the alarm goes off at 4.15am I'm not always filled with feelings of bliss and contentment!
Hope you're enjoying the DB9 WWW ;-)
Desk-pilot
- I don't think it will be as prolonged as 90-91, but I do think it will last 12-18 months and that it will impact recruitment for the next 2-3 years.
I actually think the sad reality is that flying is a career more akin to being an actor or musician. There are far more people training than will ever make a living at it. It isn't marketed that way by the schools but if you accept that there are only around 8000-10000 commercial pilots in the UK then you can see how small the job market really is compared to other professions such as law, armed forces, IT, sales etc. In my view the training schools should be forced (by law) to publish their actual employment results - at least for one stop modular and integrated students. It wouldn't be hard for the airlines for example to feed back to the main schools when they hire a candidate from a particular school and for the school to collate the results. At least then people would go into training with their eyes open to the real statistics.
Training for this career is a high risk gamble even in the good times. In the bad times you might as well go to a casino.
To anyone looking for a job now I really do wish you good fortune, but the real point of my post was to say try not to let the flying thing make you miserable while you job hunt - it is believe it or not (and I say this after 18 months on the line) just a job at the end of the day. It can be very enjoyable and satisfying but also frustrating and tiring. I do like it a lot more than my old IT job, indeed I like it as much as anyone can reasonably expect to enjoy their work but it isn't quite as glamorous, well paid and glitzy as the outside world thinks it is and when the alarm goes off at 4.15am I'm not always filled with feelings of bliss and contentment!
Hope you're enjoying the DB9 WWW ;-)
Desk-pilot
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At least then people would go into training with their eyes open to the real statistics