View Poll Results: Was flying training a bad decision for you?
Yes, regretfully so
113
17.07%
Neither a bad not a good choice
121
18.28%
No, hell no, see you are 37,000ft
428
64.65%
Voters: 662. This poll is closed
Knowing what you know now about this game, wud you have done it all in the 1st plce?
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Fair point Grass strip basher but the problem is that these pages are read by a lot of very young, very green wannabes whose only experience of aviation is MS flightsim. Understandably perhaps, they tend to believe what they read here. Add in some slick FTO marketing, and before you know it mum and dad's house is put up as security for the loan. Honestly, I've had PMs from 16 year olds who can't wait to get into £70 grand's worth of debt. I'm sure WWW gets them too - it's scary.
So for their sake, incorrect statements like:
need to be put right.
I'm not a pedant, but there is too much money at stake in this game for people to be making huge life changing decisions based on dubious information.
Anyway, back at the thread - as I may already have mentioned, it was worth every minute of the grief!
So for their sake, incorrect statements like:
Integrated will be quick, not that much more money
I'm not a pedant, but there is too much money at stake in this game for people to be making huge life changing decisions based on dubious information.
Anyway, back at the thread - as I may already have mentioned, it was worth every minute of the grief!
I have to back this up.
There is not a day when I don't get PM'd or Emailed by a teenage Wannabe who has persuaded the bank of Mum & Dad to put their house on the line in order to finance their £80k dream.
Its shocking, worrying and wrong.
In 1997 when the RAF decided that they would probably cope without me it costs £41k to attend the full time CAP509 course at BAe in Prestwick. I thought it was a lot of money at the time. A decade later I find people without even a PPL being blase about spending double that and possibly adding a type rating for another £20k.
This has been the decade of loose money. Of hyper house inflation.
The next decade will be one of tight money. Of hyper house deflation.
There will be a big impact on Wannabes. I haven't quite got the mental capacity to work out just what the impact will be. But it will be big.
WWW
There is not a day when I don't get PM'd or Emailed by a teenage Wannabe who has persuaded the bank of Mum & Dad to put their house on the line in order to finance their £80k dream.
Its shocking, worrying and wrong.
In 1997 when the RAF decided that they would probably cope without me it costs £41k to attend the full time CAP509 course at BAe in Prestwick. I thought it was a lot of money at the time. A decade later I find people without even a PPL being blase about spending double that and possibly adding a type rating for another £20k.
This has been the decade of loose money. Of hyper house inflation.
The next decade will be one of tight money. Of hyper house deflation.
There will be a big impact on Wannabes. I haven't quite got the mental capacity to work out just what the impact will be. But it will be big.
WWW
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I think airline flying will go from being a career for the affluent to a career that only the mega-wealthy will be able to get in to.
More pay to fly schemes (and they are getting more expensive!). Increased training costs. And fewer jobs. Meaning only those who can splash the cash will have a slight chance at getting a job.
The lack of funding out there is pretty painful (I tried increasing my 7.2%APR loan with egg by just a couple of grand - and they offered me 25%(!) for the entire loan - I didn't take them up on the offer - electing to just save for a little while. And I've a perfect credit record and a decent paying job.
I've noticed unsecured loans of any large amount must now be paid within 7 years (10+ years was easily achievable when I took out my loan 18 months ago), increasing the monthly payments of loans. Negative equity is already a factor for a small portion of the UK - and this will only get worse.
As for securing £80k + on parents homes at this time - crazy!
I also feel times are bleak for wannabes right now. But I am taking precautions to safeguard against this - and not charging like a bull, along with the deed's to my parents house into the unknown!
More pay to fly schemes (and they are getting more expensive!). Increased training costs. And fewer jobs. Meaning only those who can splash the cash will have a slight chance at getting a job.
The lack of funding out there is pretty painful (I tried increasing my 7.2%APR loan with egg by just a couple of grand - and they offered me 25%(!) for the entire loan - I didn't take them up on the offer - electing to just save for a little while. And I've a perfect credit record and a decent paying job.
I've noticed unsecured loans of any large amount must now be paid within 7 years (10+ years was easily achievable when I took out my loan 18 months ago), increasing the monthly payments of loans. Negative equity is already a factor for a small portion of the UK - and this will only get worse.
As for securing £80k + on parents homes at this time - crazy!
I also feel times are bleak for wannabes right now. But I am taking precautions to safeguard against this - and not charging like a bull, along with the deed's to my parents house into the unknown!
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WWW,
Out of interest, being well versed with your ideas about university if you want to be a pilot, would the current climate change your opinion on going to university instead of starting training now if you're a youngster?
Of course the debt involved remains, but with the student loan system in place, it's hardly as risky as taking an obscene loan to train.
Do you reckon in times like these it's good to start establishing a decent career and earning some decent money whilst aviation goes through the doldrums?
Out of interest, being well versed with your ideas about university if you want to be a pilot, would the current climate change your opinion on going to university instead of starting training now if you're a youngster?
Of course the debt involved remains, but with the student loan system in place, it's hardly as risky as taking an obscene loan to train.
Do you reckon in times like these it's good to start establishing a decent career and earning some decent money whilst aviation goes through the doldrums?
Three years and £12k is not something to spend lightly. Unless you do intend to use a specific degree then I really wouldn't bother.
I'd rather see a child of mine go off for three years traveling and working abroad. Hell, a couple of years in India or China learning a bit of the language and the culture would probably be the best preparation for life in the 21st Century.
Go and work as crew on some private yacht. Get a job on the oil fields of Kazakhstan. Get free board and lodgings as a stableboy to a racehourse owner. Do something, anything, that doesn't end up in a 2:1 from Durham in Management Studies/Geography/Maths for which there are no jobs no demand and a lot of sitting in boring lecture theatres persuading yourself that another night in the Union bar followed by a hilarious traffic cone and keebab incident is living life large you crazy cool dude.
You are a long time dead.
You are food for worms.
Its a big World.
School doesn't matter.
etc. etc.
WWW
I'd rather see a child of mine go off for three years traveling and working abroad. Hell, a couple of years in India or China learning a bit of the language and the culture would probably be the best preparation for life in the 21st Century.
Go and work as crew on some private yacht. Get a job on the oil fields of Kazakhstan. Get free board and lodgings as a stableboy to a racehourse owner. Do something, anything, that doesn't end up in a 2:1 from Durham in Management Studies/Geography/Maths for which there are no jobs no demand and a lot of sitting in boring lecture theatres persuading yourself that another night in the Union bar followed by a hilarious traffic cone and keebab incident is living life large you crazy cool dude.
You are a long time dead.
You are food for worms.
Its a big World.
School doesn't matter.
etc. etc.
WWW
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If you are any good at a technical subject i.e. maths/physics etc then you can quite easily get a very good return on investment.
I did a 3 years Maths degree at a red brick, and within 6 months of graduating I got a job in one of the city Investment banks.(despite not even getting a 2.1 or being on any grad scheme)
I'm now 26 and in that time I have paid off a 12k student loan, saved up the funds for a modular course, got a PPL and had haven't had to skimp on spending money.
Despite the economic conditions there is still plenty of hiring going on in the city, just not in the credit/mortgages businesses. Especially if you have a Maths/Physics based degree.
However if your going to get a non specific Humanities degree or similar, then I wouldn't bother.
I did a 3 years Maths degree at a red brick, and within 6 months of graduating I got a job in one of the city Investment banks.(despite not even getting a 2.1 or being on any grad scheme)
I'm now 26 and in that time I have paid off a 12k student loan, saved up the funds for a modular course, got a PPL and had haven't had to skimp on spending money.
Despite the economic conditions there is still plenty of hiring going on in the city, just not in the credit/mortgages businesses. Especially if you have a Maths/Physics based degree.
However if your going to get a non specific Humanities degree or similar, then I wouldn't bother.
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A good education outside of the cockpit has a lot to offer and I think a good degree (science, business etc) is a good start in life. I would encourage anyone who is a pilot to invest in something else as a fallback as this is an unstable industry.
I work on the side as an engineer on various design projects, and I am getting lots of offers for work at the moment. The work is well paid and people are well looked after (as opposed to aviation industry!).
And it is not boring at all, no more boring than spending 10 hours at a time in LNAV and VNAV!
I work on the side as an engineer on various design projects, and I am getting lots of offers for work at the moment. The work is well paid and people are well looked after (as opposed to aviation industry!).
And it is not boring at all, no more boring than spending 10 hours at a time in LNAV and VNAV!
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got two mates who went into investment banking out of uni. they both did non-specific humanity degree's. Both are doing well. one has a family.
Met plenty of guys at flight school straight out of school at 18. Most are now on a medium jet FO salary at 20. Not a bad effort.
Got other friends who sacked off uni and went travelling, worked on yachts and in bars and generally saw the world. they are now pushing 30, have no career, no house, little money and no qualifications.
guess its a question of priorities.
I wouldnt say a degree is uselss. It may not be for everyone but it certainly isnt a cone on head kebab down trousers certificate. Its almost a pre-requisite for most sought after lines of work.
Met plenty of guys at flight school straight out of school at 18. Most are now on a medium jet FO salary at 20. Not a bad effort.
Got other friends who sacked off uni and went travelling, worked on yachts and in bars and generally saw the world. they are now pushing 30, have no career, no house, little money and no qualifications.
guess its a question of priorities.
I wouldnt say a degree is uselss. It may not be for everyone but it certainly isnt a cone on head kebab down trousers certificate. Its almost a pre-requisite for most sought after lines of work.
Last edited by dragonfly6; 5th Jul 2008 at 21:22.
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Nowadays with most local colleges and polys becoming "universities" its virtually possible to get a BSc in Hairdressing or Flower arranging, basically now a BSc is the absolute minimum. Same in the states where to get a decent job an MBA or other masters is the prerequisite. A degree in "fashion" on its own just aint gonna get you anywhere.
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
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Ditto on WWW life sentiments...well said!
This is aimed more at those of us employed flying with good companies, but IMHO what is becoming apparent, maybe without us knowing it yet, these could be the good old days!?!
This is aimed more at those of us employed flying with good companies, but IMHO what is becoming apparent, maybe without us knowing it yet, these could be the good old days!?!
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Or go get yourself an apprenticeship, earn money for 3-4years and then have an actual trade and relevent qualifications...
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That is how I got started.
Started Apprenticeship in 2001.
In 2003 did first trial lesson. Stopped flying lessons got laid off after finishing apprenticeship due to company takeover.
Now I am resuming lessons again as from April this year, and good jobs in my field are common, AND I have something to fall back on if all goes boobies-up.
I would recommend doing an apprenticeship.
Edit: Berksflyer - I was a Network Administrator in IT
before I became a "handyman"
Started Apprenticeship in 2001.
In 2003 did first trial lesson. Stopped flying lessons got laid off after finishing apprenticeship due to company takeover.
Now I am resuming lessons again as from April this year, and good jobs in my field are common, AND I have something to fall back on if all goes boobies-up.
I would recommend doing an apprenticeship.
Edit: Berksflyer - I was a Network Administrator in IT
before I became a "handyman"
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Thought I would add my bit!
Hi everyone, I thought I would add my opinion to the post.
I see that there seems to be a slight bias to getting a 'backup' to flying, I agree with the sentiments, but what if you have always wanted to do it? why delay it? Why not go straight into flying at 17 / 18 and do an integrated course (if your financially able). That way you maybe be flying a nice shiny jet around at the age of 22/23. Then if your career becomes favourable, do a degree / masters when time permits.
I personally think you should give your all into any career you want, whether it be flying, building, mechanic, IT solutions, anything at all.
Also before I get replies saying you need a backup etc, I do agree and I myself have had the pleasure of uni twice and have a small sentence after my name, but I would trade it all to fly. Why? becuse the boredom and the stress of working 80 plus hours a week almost did me in!
However, going back to the original post from Treeshaver, the fact it has taken, I believe 2-3 years and no luck, well just keep going, your luck will change, it has personally taken me 2.5 years of hard work / research / dedication to just get on the CTC scheme. So when I come out in 2 years time, that's almost 5 years spent on trying to fly!
I believe if you want something it's a matter of doing the research and finding the best way of achieving your goal, to me CTC appears to be the best way, hence why I worked so hard to get it. I did get a break and the fact my gfs Dad is a BA capt really helped, (Moral support and masses of advice) but it was 2.5 years of getting rejected then studying, rejected, studying then a break and then I got it! It's not always a case of working harder, but working smarter. Very easy to say, but not easy to implement.
I see that there seems to be a slight bias to getting a 'backup' to flying, I agree with the sentiments, but what if you have always wanted to do it? why delay it? Why not go straight into flying at 17 / 18 and do an integrated course (if your financially able). That way you maybe be flying a nice shiny jet around at the age of 22/23. Then if your career becomes favourable, do a degree / masters when time permits.
I personally think you should give your all into any career you want, whether it be flying, building, mechanic, IT solutions, anything at all.
Also before I get replies saying you need a backup etc, I do agree and I myself have had the pleasure of uni twice and have a small sentence after my name, but I would trade it all to fly. Why? becuse the boredom and the stress of working 80 plus hours a week almost did me in!
However, going back to the original post from Treeshaver, the fact it has taken, I believe 2-3 years and no luck, well just keep going, your luck will change, it has personally taken me 2.5 years of hard work / research / dedication to just get on the CTC scheme. So when I come out in 2 years time, that's almost 5 years spent on trying to fly!
I believe if you want something it's a matter of doing the research and finding the best way of achieving your goal, to me CTC appears to be the best way, hence why I worked so hard to get it. I did get a break and the fact my gfs Dad is a BA capt really helped, (Moral support and masses of advice) but it was 2.5 years of getting rejected then studying, rejected, studying then a break and then I got it! It's not always a case of working harder, but working smarter. Very easy to say, but not easy to implement.
Last edited by jaimz1982; 10th Jul 2008 at 00:46.
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I can totally sympathise with your situation and as someone said near the start of this thread there aren't many people who have positive stories to tell in this forum and I am also guilty of this. People who have gone through training and whom are now flying for airlines don't post here apart from saying thanks to everyone for their help so you probably have a clouded view on what you have to look forward to as a pilot.
I have friends who fought for 5+ years to get their first job. They admittedly were looking for work just after 9/11 but they are all now flying for airlines because they stuck with it. I was VERY lucky to get that email i was waiting for after just over a year of constant searching, applying and networking. I'v been flying professionally now for almost 18 months and I can honestly say hand on heart that i feel priveleged to be doing what i'm doing and as a youngster when i started to have passengers more than double my age giving me a level of respect I have never experienced this adds to my affirmation that i have done the right thing and persued something i DREAMED of doing!
I can understand in the current climate you may be tempted to follow another career path and i'm not going to sit here and tell you what to do but what i will say is at the very LEAST get yourself instructing part time alongside your new job. Take any flying you can get and build your hours because if this was a dream to you a few years back it will still be a dream when the industry picks up again and in that situation you have kept yourself current and built your hours and can be in there with the best of them to fight for that job that will get you flying for a living. And for the love of god don't listen to these pilots who say it doesnt really pay the bills...tell me of a job where you get the office we get and you're paid £90,000+ a year (capt) to do something that was once a hobby and a dream, when the average wage in the uk is around £22,000 maybe a bit more!
Don't ditch the idea completely is all i'm saying and keep your hand in if you are going to do another job for the time being.
I have friends who fought for 5+ years to get their first job. They admittedly were looking for work just after 9/11 but they are all now flying for airlines because they stuck with it. I was VERY lucky to get that email i was waiting for after just over a year of constant searching, applying and networking. I'v been flying professionally now for almost 18 months and I can honestly say hand on heart that i feel priveleged to be doing what i'm doing and as a youngster when i started to have passengers more than double my age giving me a level of respect I have never experienced this adds to my affirmation that i have done the right thing and persued something i DREAMED of doing!
I can understand in the current climate you may be tempted to follow another career path and i'm not going to sit here and tell you what to do but what i will say is at the very LEAST get yourself instructing part time alongside your new job. Take any flying you can get and build your hours because if this was a dream to you a few years back it will still be a dream when the industry picks up again and in that situation you have kept yourself current and built your hours and can be in there with the best of them to fight for that job that will get you flying for a living. And for the love of god don't listen to these pilots who say it doesnt really pay the bills...tell me of a job where you get the office we get and you're paid £90,000+ a year (capt) to do something that was once a hobby and a dream, when the average wage in the uk is around £22,000 maybe a bit more!
Don't ditch the idea completely is all i'm saying and keep your hand in if you are going to do another job for the time being.
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Ryanair are offering those who complete a type rating with them jobs at this time. Many people have obtained employment after paying for their type rating with minimum hours but on the brink of recession maybe now is not a good time.I am in my late forties and know it is the only way I will get a job in the rh seat.
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I think you have to ask yourself how badly do I want this? Am I prepared to spend the next 10 years of my life paying back a mortgage that effectively all there could be to show is a piece of paper with a licence on it? That's the potential brute reality, no flying job, working in an office staring at a comp and hating what you do.
But there's the flip side, in 10 years maybe you have got into a long haul carrier, maybe you are a SFO, maybe you've had kids, wife etc and are Captain on shorthaul. You really never ever know.
These are the questions I asked myself, yes i am prepared to put my nuts on the line, yes I do want to fly a plane more than anything in the world, yes I am prepared to maybe go back to my old life for abit. But I won't rest until I'm up there!
My gf's Dad is a 747 BA captain and he's my inspiration, and ill work as hard as I can to emulate him, ill give it 100%.
He's always said to me, 'never tell yourself you can't do something, there's always someone else outthere that will! And if they do, just prove them wrong'
Well it's worked so far!
Best of luck with CTC, been there and I'm off in October, I can't wait!
But there's the flip side, in 10 years maybe you have got into a long haul carrier, maybe you are a SFO, maybe you've had kids, wife etc and are Captain on shorthaul. You really never ever know.
These are the questions I asked myself, yes i am prepared to put my nuts on the line, yes I do want to fly a plane more than anything in the world, yes I am prepared to maybe go back to my old life for abit. But I won't rest until I'm up there!
My gf's Dad is a 747 BA captain and he's my inspiration, and ill work as hard as I can to emulate him, ill give it 100%.
He's always said to me, 'never tell yourself you can't do something, there's always someone else outthere that will! And if they do, just prove them wrong'
Well it's worked so far!
Best of luck with CTC, been there and I'm off in October, I can't wait!
Last edited by jaimz1982; 21st Jul 2008 at 14:18.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
jaimz,
Yep, I agree if you're heart's set on becoming a pilot, crack on. But, and it's a very real but, I know several people who've splashed the cash to get all the training and ratings done to lose their medical. They weren't old at all. Late 20's to early 30's.
1 had a bike crash and it resulted in a head injury. No medical.
Another developed migraines causing visual disturbances. No medical.
A study buddy developed a condition that has left him unable to hold a Class 1.
An instructor fell over and damaged her back, no more medical, therefore no more job. To make matters worse, her employer hadn't paid the proper insurance. No money and no job.
A few others have fallen by the wayside simply because they ran out of money to keep the IR current while looking for jobs. If you finish during the early part of a down turn, there's just no jobs for low houred guys. Eventually, keeping every thing current just bleeds them dry.
You do need a back up OR a plan to take any job while waiting to get a flying job. If it means labouring or driving a truck/taxi, so be it.
Yep, I agree if you're heart's set on becoming a pilot, crack on. But, and it's a very real but, I know several people who've splashed the cash to get all the training and ratings done to lose their medical. They weren't old at all. Late 20's to early 30's.
1 had a bike crash and it resulted in a head injury. No medical.
Another developed migraines causing visual disturbances. No medical.
A study buddy developed a condition that has left him unable to hold a Class 1.
An instructor fell over and damaged her back, no more medical, therefore no more job. To make matters worse, her employer hadn't paid the proper insurance. No money and no job.
A few others have fallen by the wayside simply because they ran out of money to keep the IR current while looking for jobs. If you finish during the early part of a down turn, there's just no jobs for low houred guys. Eventually, keeping every thing current just bleeds them dry.
You do need a back up OR a plan to take any job while waiting to get a flying job. If it means labouring or driving a truck/taxi, so be it.
