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Knowing what you know now about this game, wud you have done it all in the 1st plce?

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Interviews, jobs & sponsorship The forum where interviews, job offers and selection criteria can be discussed and exchanged.
View Poll Results: Was flying training a bad decision for you?
Yes, regretfully so
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17.07%
Neither a bad not a good choice
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18.28%
No, hell no, see you are 37,000ft
428
64.65%
Voters: 662. This poll is closed

Knowing what you know now about this game, wud you have done it all in the 1st plce?

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Old 29th May 2008, 08:10
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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I would say you need to try and get in to a carrier now. Loco such as Ryanair will be recruiting for some while yet as they still have 130 737s on order. The slowdown is happening and money is getting tight all round. if money is tight then the punters won't spend it at the flying clubs. Flying training is getting more expensive every day with prices of fuel. If you are in the position where you can afford a TR with a GUARANTEED job then get it done. Don't worry about salaries at the moment or what you fly. if you want to fly professionally you have got to be aggressive with your career.

I was looking during a slowdown between 99 and 01 and luckily got in before 9/11. Wasn't a fun time but I did instruct part time while keeping a few bucks rolling in with a full time job. Was it worth it ? Oh yes !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 29th May 2008, 10:20
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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There's bound to be change in the flight training industry in the next 5 years... alot of change. There are flight schools that'll take steps that some other flight schools may not see coming.

This is all I can say for now.
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Old 30th May 2008, 14:46
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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It is worth it - very much so. Even when you get a crappy roster I always think what I could be doing otherwise - sitting at a desk from 9 to 5! Its a no brainer and I have been airline flying for nearly 5 years so the honeymoon period had worn off a long time ago!

I did instruct when I got my CPL in Jan 03 since the industry was still picking itself up. 9/11 happened right in the middle of my training. For me personally, getting my FI rating was without doubt the best decision I made. When I got my FI rating after I got my CPL, I was flying so I was current plus due to networking at my local flying cub I got my first job after 6 months of instructing. Nearly 5 years on from then, my FI experience has proven to be very useful since I have been made up to a Line Training Skipper and I have only been in the left seat for just over a year and I am at my second airline now. My superiors held my FI rating in high regard and the fact that I have kept it current and still instruct part time was probably a good omen as well. Perhaps I am just lucky but I do believe that the FI rating has helped me immensely in the career so far.

If you sit back for a moment then you are giving your peers the upper hand. Keep at it!
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Old 30th May 2008, 21:10
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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My advice would be to stick with it. Maybe the airlines are changing at the moment, but the world would grind to a mere crawl without aviation.

I couldn't see myself doing anything else as a career. Regional UK based job. Good pay (relative!) slack roster (about 50 - 55 hrs a month) avg 1 nightstop a month and at least avg of 2 weekends off a month, if not more. In fact my wife gets a cheesed off that I am at home so much!


I would certianly go through all the hassel again, and boy has there been hassel and heart ache.

Just remember, that at the end of the day this is job. Jobs can get a little repetitve at times, but you get out what you put in!

Don't S,S,S!
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Old 30th May 2008, 22:56
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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stop, stop, stop

Plenty of time for your models then?
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Old 7th Jun 2008, 23:22
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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After today! No bloody no. aaagh! You know when you actually did nothing wrong and still get pulled over and lectured.

But I'll get over it. But the next time I walk.
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Old 8th Jun 2008, 12:01
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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My pennies worth:

Would I have done it all again,? yes, but differently. I most certainly would have stayed in the training sector as an instructor, by far the highlight of my career and a part of my life that I look back upon with much fondness. I would never have touched a jet, but I possibly would have gone turbo prop. Something I never did, much to my regret. I personally found flying jets in an airline environment, on many occasions a soul destroying experience, by far the most unhappiest days of my life, although I did enjoy the company of those that worked closest to me, FO's and Cabin Crew. The rest of it. Crap.
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Old 9th Jun 2008, 19:14
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Nope, not in a million years.

If I could go back 10 years, I'd get a PPL, fly just for pleasure without the hassle, and find something else to do that would pay the bills.

Never thought I'd say it ( doesn't help that I've recently been shafted by my ex employer- see Club328/PC forums) but that's how I feel right now.... have done for a while, actually.

Last edited by CFW's; 9th Jun 2008 at 19:16. Reason: added some text
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Old 10th Jun 2008, 16:54
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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djfingerscrossed

Spin can I ask what was soul destroying?

Was it the overnight stops or company politics etc? Sounds like the actual flying and commaraderie (sp?) with your fellow pilots was good but everything else fell some what short of what you were looking for?
I guess its the same old rostering gripe, but a day off for me was a recovery day. The number of times I highlighted issues that were agreed by senior managers. The continual change from night to day flying became fatiguing and stressful. Management always said that any pilot who felt unfit due fatigue should report unfit and not report for duty. I did this, and it got me an interview. They wanted to know what it was that was making me unfit. It was the rostering I told them. They said it was legal and that was that. I went for a sim check immediately after one of the more punishing tours of duty. I passed it ok, but my performance fell way below my own standard. The training manager agreed. I showed him my roster (which was not that different from other pilots). He went ballistic, did he get anything changed, errr, no. I was working for the company, the taxman, and the mortgage company. I was working for everybody, bar myself. I had a house to be proud of, but one I could not enjoy, because I was permanently knackered on the occasions when I was at home.

Most (all) companies have a political bent to them, and that never troubled me too much. The final straw for me, was when I negotiated my own contract and the company ignored it! It was not until I walked away from my aircraft for the last time did anyone ever figure out, that a contract was a binding agreement between two parties, and for my part, I am a man of my word.

The guys I worked with are some of the best you could ever wish to meet, and the pride I felt, having people of that calibre working for me as a commander, was immense. A real privilege. If anyone ever got into a fix, or had a problem, I wanted them to think through their own solution, and if it seemed reasonable, put it into action. Let the success be theirs. They enjoyed it and they started thinking about the work they were doing. Sometimes they would come up with ideas, where I would have say, hmm ok, but today we'll have to do it my way and explain (time permitting) why. Camaraderie was strong, for me anyway. I don't recall ever having a serious cross word, and I always got 5 star performance from them, often confirmed by complimentary letters from passengers.

Before I packed in, I turned down four promotions. I had no issues with the extra responsibilities, but I had no confidence in senior managers to stick to their end of the bargain. This is something that is a must for me, particularly when I would have been more deeply involved with personnel matters. I didn't want to be branded a liar like so many of the senior people were.

I now run a small farm in the highlands. The winters are tough, but everything is run to my agenda based upon my own principles and standards. It isn't easy, its ruddy hard. I raided the piggy bank, emptied the ISA's and sold my house, and poured every penny into the farm. It's going well, very satisfying. I now have an approved egg production site, and a licensed egg packing station, all built from scratch, with just the few pennies that I had left in my pocket.

Am I now happy, you bet.

PS Mrs. Spinnaker has got her husband back
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 09:07
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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This demonstrate that a pilot career isn't all in the life..
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 09:25
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed, I forgot to mention that getting assaulted by security every time I went to work was a factor.

I don't want to put new guys off, I understand the 'dream', but a few snippets of reality are, I feel, warranted. At least new blood to aviation goes in with eyes open.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 09:44
  #132 (permalink)  

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I'm still new and enthusiastic, and quite literally living a dream. It's a fantastic honeymoon and I wonder how long the feeling will last. When I mention this to the captains I fly with, a few smile knowingly, but most of them claim to enjoy flying as much now as when they first started.

In the words of one 35-year veteran I flew with recently; "When I get to work, I'm as happy as a pig in sh!t."

That said, I'm lucky enough to be flying new aircraft for a decent airline, from a small base where everyone knows each other and gets on well, and where security are human. No question that the experience could be very different elsewhere.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 10:51
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Any italian pilot experience?
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 11:58
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Wud I ddo it agen?

Yes..............But I'd change a few things.
Never knock back a root(when the lights off looks don't matter),
Stop drinking when things become blurry,
Don't drink beer,red wine,white wine,rum and single malt in the same night,
chase more of the women,
get in writing the ole "yes I'll still give you blowjobs when we're married"!,
Apart from that I'd do it all again
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Old 12th Jun 2008, 11:17
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Keep the Faith!

Treeshaver - Don't you dare give up!!!
You are young, have qualifications you can use if you stay current!
Staying current is the key.

I started on the rocky road in 2000 aged 35. I hit the integrated schools just before Sept 11th! I got lucky in mid-2005. First turbo-props for 18 months then onto the 737. Been there ever since and trust me - it's worth the sh*t you go through to get there.

But, if you think it's going to be a smooth ride, you're in for a shock.
There are a few lucky people out there with golden balls who sail through it and end up in a top job - not my experience.

My success came from one decision and one action (oh and being a bit patient). I guarantee you they work and you will have heard them many times before:

1. GET AN INSTRUCTORS RATING. The only way to keep in current flying practice and rack up those important hours. I instructed part-time for nearly three years. Never got paid for it, instead taking payment by accepting flying hours for me to take the girlfriend out to lunch all over England (gotta keep her on side). Absolutley knackering whilst holding a full-time job, but loved every minute of it. You will meet people in the industry, keep current and get good handling skills. It may cost £6k but is worth every single penny!!!

2. NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK.....NETWORK (I think you get the idea ). I knew no-one and nothing when I got into this game. I now have friends in just about every airline in the uk. You will too if you instruct. Friends and acquaintances (did I spell that right?) will be only too glad to help - because we've all struggled at some point and know what it's like.
Do not pi*s people off, always be polite, help others if you can and it will be returned to you manyfold!

It's true, the fuel issue may lead us all in to dark times - not just in aviation. I have 2200 TT including 750 turbo-prop and 750 jet - I am wondering what the future holds for me. If I get laid off, I can tell you what I will be doing: NUMBERS 1+2 ABOVE!

Aviation is a tough industry, but even if I have to go back to my old job for a while, I won't regret having done it all. And remember things can turnaround in an instant in aviation. If you ain't current and ain't ready when your one chance comes - you only have yourself to blame. Harsh but true. ALL the people I trained with (and got through that Sept 11th period) are all now flying jets and earning good dosh.

QUIT AND YOU WILL BE MISSING OUT!
KEEP THE FAITH BROTHER - IT WILL COME TO YOU IF YOU DO!
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Old 12th Jun 2008, 15:58
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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I'm only 15, so obviously don't have any experience like you guys.

However, I do understand that if I do become a pilot, there will have to be sacrifices. Not seeing family as much, away from home a lot, hard to organize things around your work life, but these are things I'm going to have to accept if I want my 'dream' to come reality I think it'd be rather naive of myself to become a pilot and expect to spend weekends with family etc

Sam
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Old 12th Jun 2008, 16:42
  #137 (permalink)  
VFE
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Thumbs up

The training was undoubtedly a slog and I made a couple of wrong decisions with regards suitable FTO's which made the whole process more drawn out and painful.... at the time.

Now servicing a large debt and working as an instructor which on the whole I enjoy and still feel privilaged to be doing everyday at a school with decent people and decent customers...

The lure of the airlines has so far stayed at bay due to the fact I seriously doubt I could service my debt and afford to survive off a new FO salary away from home - the maths don't add up - for good or for worse....

Due to my involvement with GA various different GA job offers fall my way from time to time which, so far I have resisted because I enjoy instructing and want to excel to some degree before I move on. But needs must....

I find myself realising I need more money but the whole airline pilot thing to be just a job, I see fellow flyers dissatisfied in their airline but putting on brave faces to save face.

The only attraction towards the airlines for me personally would be the thrill of flying a bigger aeroplane which seems hardly enough to shell out for a TR and to endure what might *possibly* become a miserable existance as a line pilot at a typical ThriftyJet.

It's crossroads for me right now.

However, to get back on track - when I think about what I may have done had I not decided to become a commercial pilot (of sorts) I realise my life may have been more prosperous financially but I feel certain I would not be half the person I am today, would not have had half the amazing experiences I've had, would not have met half the number of strange and interesting people, and would not have had any sense of contentment with any other job.

In short - the journey so far has been an amazing life experience that few people in life can appreciate unless they've been there themselves. For that, I can never feel regret only a sense of personal achievement despite the financial cost.

So, would VFE do it all again? Yes. But, with the small proviso that parts of my training would've been completed elsewhere. Although I may not be doing too well financially I am happy at work and seeing as we all spend most our waking hours at work that is a big thing as far as I'm concerned.

When I started out wanting to be a pilot I only had one option to get there and that was to borrow and altho it now causes the most grief in my personal life because I see friends doing things with their money that I can only dream of, I still realise how lucky I am to be flying everyday and being paid enough to service my debt. These days I am not getting any further into debt, which is positive, and the debt I do have is getting smaller so it's all moving in the right direction. In the meantime I'm doing something I really enjoy. I could be a shelf stacker in Tesco with a gambling addiction but instead I fly everyday and tollerate the financial downside. Money is never the be-all and end-all in life.

The grass is always greener on the other side - be grateful for where you're at cuz tomorrow you might be dead.

VFE.
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Old 15th Jun 2008, 08:26
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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sam-MAN

I'm only 15, so obviously don't have any experience like you guys.

However, I do understand that if I do become a pilot, there will have to be sacrifices. Not seeing family as much, away from home a lot, hard to organize things around your work life, but these are things I'm going to have to accept if I want my 'dream' to come reality I think it'd be rather naive of myself to become a pilot and expect to spend weekends with family etc

Sam
A rather adult and mature view I feel.

To make a dream come true, there are often many sacrifices to make. Sounds to me, that at the age of 15, you have your head screwed on correctly. Well done.
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Old 15th Jun 2008, 23:45
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Would I do it again? - Yes

Well, I'm in my second year as a 39 year old airline pilot on regional turboprops having spent 15 years in IT and Project Management so I have as it were seen both sides of the fence.

Working hours - I work around 160-170 duty hours a month of which typically 80 are spent flying. Mostly I work 5 days on and two off. I typically average 1-4 standbys a month and am called out on around a third of them. In IT I worked around 42 hours a week - so about the same, but I would say on the whole the time spent at work was considerably less intense than flying. I did have time to chill out and surf the web, email friends, take an hour or occasionally more for lunch or meet chums for a capuccino for an hour now and again. On the short routes I fly there's very little 'down-time' to eat or enjoy the view.

In IT I worked 8.45-5 or 6pm so my sleep cycles were regular, I went to bed 11-12pm every night and slept till 7am. In flying my roster usually involves three earlies reporting around 6am and working until 2-3pm in a row followed by two or three days late reporting around 1pm and finishing around 10pm. These days can easily get a lot longer if technical issues occur. I find it harder to get the required 8 hrs sleep in this job and feel tired more often.

My weekends with family are much rarer as a pilot, whereas I hade every weekend off in the old job and rarely took work home.

My pay in IT was around £55k pa as a permie in IT, whereas it's around £32k as a year 2 First Officer - less apparently than the Shell tanker drivers! After flight training I spent 18 months in IT as a contractor on a day rate of £440 a day so made around £100k a year for that brief period! My debts/mortgage are now £70k higher, if not more than that.

Despite all this I absolutely love the job and feel immensely privileged to be a pilot. I love the hardware, the flying, the views, the camaraderie of the crew and take great personal pride in doing a good landing or just coping with a new busy airport/bad weather/crosswind etc and trying to hone my skills. Perhaps the most rewarding thing is that you are never as good as you want to be as a pilot, whereas in IT I really felt my learning and personal development plateaued years ago - there was rarely any great satisfaction to be had and I was just bored by it.

I completely love the job and have none of the depressing feeling I used to get on Sunday nights - in short despite it all it's a great career and I'm very happy to have got there in the end.

Desk-pilot
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Old 16th Jun 2008, 09:31
  #140 (permalink)  

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I think Desk-pilot has hit the nail on the head:

Despite all this I absolutely love the job and feel immensely privileged to be a pilot. I love the hardware, the flying, the views, the camaraderie of the crew and take great personal pride in doing a good landing or just coping with a new busy airport/bad weather/crosswind etc and trying to hone my skills. Perhaps the most rewarding thing is that you are never as good as you want to be as a pilot, whereas in IT I really felt my learning and personal development plateaued years ago - there was rarely any great satisfaction to be had and I was just bored by it.
I work for the same airline (how do you manage a 'good landing' in a Q400?) and have a similar background, albeit with a different previous career. Desk-pilot's words explain in a nutshell why I love this job, despite the not insignificant downsides.

I learn something new every time I go to work, picking up tips from guys who started flying when I was in nappies. Their advice sometimes saves me from embarrassing myself (and occasionally I get to return the favour - even twenty thousand hour captains make mistakes). No two days are the same, you never stop learning. I am a perfectionist, but I know there is no such thing as the perfect flight - there is always something you could have done better. That really is what makes it such an enjoyable challenge. And on the rare occasions I manage to pull-off a greaser, I find myself grinning like a kid at Christmas.

Don't underestimate the negative aspects of the job, because there are many. Don't underestimate the grief and sacrifice involved in getting this far (see my previous posts). If you truly love flying, however, it will more than make up for it. After a few days off, I start to get withdrawal symptoms. For me, it's the best job in the world.
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