Is there going to be any jobs left for me? :(
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Guys thanks firstly for all the replies, the harsh and the nice, it is appreciated and I知 not one to storm off in the huff if I don't like what I am hearing, I take it in and do something about it.
Firstly I was left ｣33,000 from my grandmother 4 years ago so about ｣7000 has been spent attaining my PPL and Night rating and a further ｣3000 on my IMC .Obviously to scratch 220 hours in my log book I致e had to spend a fair amount around ｣3000,but I知 young and I wanted to fly so I used the money that was there so I have around ｣20,000 left which I am going to use to further my flying.
The situation with the RAF is, as I previously said I have always wanted to be an airline pilot but the cost's are high. As a hobby I decided to join the air training corps just to do something aviation related. I then started really getting in to it and the military structure so I thought, how about join the RAF as a ME pilot, scrounge my training off them then head off to the airlines. But the more and more I got used to the structure and way of life of the military the more I wanted it so when I was told I was too tall to be a forces pilot I thought I値l still join the RAF and get all the benefits and way of life then later in life I can join an airline that way I get to live two dreams (greedy I know but who doesn't want to live their dream?) Right now I can honestly say I want the RAF more than flying but I still want to be a pilot whether it's an instructor or an airline pilot LATER in life.
You are all saying I should get out and work and save up the required funds, I understand that but maybe you are forgetting I will actually be getting paid in the RAF so I will be saving. I know there are plenty of schemes out there etc but I will never ever take out any sort of loan no matter what it is for, I am dead set against it so I am going to be doing it the hard way and self funding.
Any further advice is gratefully appreciated.
Firstly I was left ｣33,000 from my grandmother 4 years ago so about ｣7000 has been spent attaining my PPL and Night rating and a further ｣3000 on my IMC .Obviously to scratch 220 hours in my log book I致e had to spend a fair amount around ｣3000,but I知 young and I wanted to fly so I used the money that was there so I have around ｣20,000 left which I am going to use to further my flying.
The situation with the RAF is, as I previously said I have always wanted to be an airline pilot but the cost's are high. As a hobby I decided to join the air training corps just to do something aviation related. I then started really getting in to it and the military structure so I thought, how about join the RAF as a ME pilot, scrounge my training off them then head off to the airlines. But the more and more I got used to the structure and way of life of the military the more I wanted it so when I was told I was too tall to be a forces pilot I thought I値l still join the RAF and get all the benefits and way of life then later in life I can join an airline that way I get to live two dreams (greedy I know but who doesn't want to live their dream?) Right now I can honestly say I want the RAF more than flying but I still want to be a pilot whether it's an instructor or an airline pilot LATER in life.
You are all saying I should get out and work and save up the required funds, I understand that but maybe you are forgetting I will actually be getting paid in the RAF so I will be saving. I know there are plenty of schemes out there etc but I will never ever take out any sort of loan no matter what it is for, I am dead set against it so I am going to be doing it the hard way and self funding.
Any further advice is gratefully appreciated.
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Well I've got to say all the credible airlines I know of, employ pilot's of all ages. By not employing anyone aged 40+, they are ruling out a wealth of talented pilot's who have some priceless life experience. This often translates into positive feedback when CRM and command assessments are considered.
Anyway, this subject has been done to death so I'm bowing out before the lock/merge.
AWACS_bhoy you have a PPL and 220 hours. With ｣20,000 you could probably do your ATPL's, CPL and IR! With that completed you could go airline job hunting.
Anyway, this subject has been done to death so I'm bowing out before the lock/merge.
AWACS_bhoy you have a PPL and 220 hours. With ｣20,000 you could probably do your ATPL's, CPL and IR! With that completed you could go airline job hunting.
All I can say is that there is no certain answer. You may or may not be successful in getting a job weather it be airline or instructor. You just can't tell. It's impossible to see what the industry will be doing in 23 years time. It's a chance you're going to have to take if you're certain about living both your dreams.
If you've got 20K at the age of 17 you're in a much better financial position than most wannabes and I'm sure you'll use that to your advantage!
- if thats how you feel then I'd suggest you concentrate on giving the RAF your all. Sometimes it's best to concentrate on the things that inspire you the most. Doesn't mean to say you can't continue your flying whilst you're working.
S88
If you've got 20K at the age of 17 you're in a much better financial position than most wannabes and I'm sure you'll use that to your advantage!
Right now I can honestly say I want the RAF more than flying
S88
I've heard many different things about peoples career choices over the years. This one would rank as one of the most odd. You've spent ｣13k on basic flying training and GA flying at the age of 17 and you've signed up for a full service RAF commisioned role that is ground based all because you desire to be an airline pilot.
Fair enough. No criticism. You are unusual and have sparked an ill tempered debate - no harm in that, they are often the most informative.
Lets just clear up the age thing. Decades ago some airlines with long seniority lists wanted recruits to do 15 years in the RHS and then 15 years in the LHS and thus have a fully rounded career. Zip forward to today and the picture is very different. You've got a large and fast growing fractional jet scene where acne and youthful looks ain't what the client is looking for. You've got most of the LoCo's who just want a name, a telephone number and not to pay for your type rating or give you a pension. If they get 5 years out of your they've had plenty of return on their very limited investment. If you were 55 they might think twice - 40 is nothing.
You've also got the age discrimination law which was a massive change last year that most people totally missed or massively underestimated. It is now just as illegal to not employ you because of your age as it would be because you are black or gay or Muslim or female or disabled or a member of a trade union.
I think you've taken a meandering and wasteful path to an airline job thus far and I am highly concerned about your decision to join the RAF as an 18yr old fighter controller. Do you know much about the trade and its future and your service career prospects?
I wish you well.
WWW
Fair enough. No criticism. You are unusual and have sparked an ill tempered debate - no harm in that, they are often the most informative.
Lets just clear up the age thing. Decades ago some airlines with long seniority lists wanted recruits to do 15 years in the RHS and then 15 years in the LHS and thus have a fully rounded career. Zip forward to today and the picture is very different. You've got a large and fast growing fractional jet scene where acne and youthful looks ain't what the client is looking for. You've got most of the LoCo's who just want a name, a telephone number and not to pay for your type rating or give you a pension. If they get 5 years out of your they've had plenty of return on their very limited investment. If you were 55 they might think twice - 40 is nothing.
You've also got the age discrimination law which was a massive change last year that most people totally missed or massively underestimated. It is now just as illegal to not employ you because of your age as it would be because you are black or gay or Muslim or female or disabled or a member of a trade union.
I think you've taken a meandering and wasteful path to an airline job thus far and I am highly concerned about your decision to join the RAF as an 18yr old fighter controller. Do you know much about the trade and its future and your service career prospects?
I wish you well.
WWW
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Ok, deep breath, here goes.....
(First a quick aside.....funny how some posters seem to think their opinions are actually facts while ours remain simply opinions! But anyway, that's for another day).
AWACS, great you replied. Still don't quite understand your figures - under ｣14 an hour for your hour building - wow! And with hindsight, that ｣33000 would have gone a long way to getting you an fATPL and very near your dream already. There you go.
But hey, you've still got ｣20000 - at your age this is such a leg up into professional flying. A little work in something that you don't have to sign your life away for and you'll be qualified at a very young age. This means a huge advantage in experience and seniority down the line.
I'll be blunt though. You're so well placed to make your flying dream come true and yet you seem reluctant to make it happen. In my book that means you don't want it enough. Simple as that.
By the time you're forty you could have thousands of hours on jet aircraft, be a Captain, perhaps a training Captain even (all dependant on aptitude and a good dose of luck of course). Or........you could be coming out of the RAF and starting to look for a job. If you get one, a lot of the Captains you fly with will be younger than you and have far more experience than you could dream of...........
In summary, it's your choice, as it should be. But for anyone who loves flying, one dream seems so out of balance with the other. No harm to fighter controllers or anything, but it's not like you're saying your other dream is to be in the Royal Marines or SAS..................now that I could understand more.
Only you can tell..............
(I still have a problem understanding your finances, but that's another thing).
(First a quick aside.....funny how some posters seem to think their opinions are actually facts while ours remain simply opinions! But anyway, that's for another day).
AWACS, great you replied. Still don't quite understand your figures - under ｣14 an hour for your hour building - wow! And with hindsight, that ｣33000 would have gone a long way to getting you an fATPL and very near your dream already. There you go.
But hey, you've still got ｣20000 - at your age this is such a leg up into professional flying. A little work in something that you don't have to sign your life away for and you'll be qualified at a very young age. This means a huge advantage in experience and seniority down the line.
I'll be blunt though. You're so well placed to make your flying dream come true and yet you seem reluctant to make it happen. In my book that means you don't want it enough. Simple as that.
By the time you're forty you could have thousands of hours on jet aircraft, be a Captain, perhaps a training Captain even (all dependant on aptitude and a good dose of luck of course). Or........you could be coming out of the RAF and starting to look for a job. If you get one, a lot of the Captains you fly with will be younger than you and have far more experience than you could dream of...........
In summary, it's your choice, as it should be. But for anyone who loves flying, one dream seems so out of balance with the other. No harm to fighter controllers or anything, but it's not like you're saying your other dream is to be in the Royal Marines or SAS..................now that I could understand more.
Only you can tell..............
(I still have a problem understanding your finances, but that's another thing).
Last edited by Maximum; 5th May 2008 at 19:20.
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(I still have a problem understanding your finances, but that's another thing).
One of my friends from school who is joing the RAF as a pilot (we are due to start IOT 10 weeks apart) his dad is one of the chief exec's for shell so he's minted anyway he is a PPL flyer and has his own piper Cherokee so getting a shot of that is simple and cheaper but obviously I have had to fork out hire charges at some point at one point I was paying ｣140 an hour each time I wanted to go up so to be honest my maths may be slightly out but I guess ｣13,000 is a good estimate
One of my friends from school who is joing the RAF as a pilot (we are due to start IOT 10 weeks apart) his dad is one of the chief exec's for shell so he's minted anyway he is a PPL flyer and has his own piper Cherokee so getting a shot of that is simple and cheaper but obviously I have had to fork out hire charges at some point at one point I was paying ｣140 an hour each time I wanted to go up so to be honest my maths may be slightly out but I guess ｣13,000 is a good estimate
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｣3000 becomes ｣13000.........as the man once said, never let the facts get in the way of a good story!
I'm not being sarcastic AWACS, just it's hard to give you a balanced opinion when the goalposts keep moving!!
Anyway, we could start going round in circles.
Personally, I would take myself off on a long walk, and think about which dream I couldn't live without. Imagine that whichever one you pick, you can't have the other. Don't think about other people like parents, friends, god forbid even ppruners.........it's your life.............try to be honest with yourself.
Good luck.
I'm not being sarcastic AWACS, just it's hard to give you a balanced opinion when the goalposts keep moving!!
Anyway, we could start going round in circles.
Personally, I would take myself off on a long walk, and think about which dream I couldn't live without. Imagine that whichever one you pick, you can't have the other. Don't think about other people like parents, friends, god forbid even ppruners.........it's your life.............try to be honest with yourself.
Good luck.
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"I think you've taken a meandering and wasteful path to an airline job thus far and I am highly concerned about your decision to join the RAF as an 18yr old fighter controller. Do you know much about the trade and its future and your service career prospects?"
To be honest I confuse the hell out of myself sometimes. I am the kind of person that gets an idea in their head then tries to act straight away on it, but with regards to the RAF I have taken a very different approach because to be fair its a dangerous job and the threat of me being killed during my service and never making the cockpit job has crossed my mind many times.
I have no regrets about the money I have spent so far on flying because I have loved every second of it and would do it all over again if I could.
As far as fighter control is concerned I didn't put it down as my second choice and then go on to accept it not knowing anything about it, come on I know I知 Scottish but I知 not that stupid! I have had various visits to Boulmer and Waddo even getting the chance to go through some basic scenarios on the simulators and although it isn't as exciting as flying I still get a real buzz from it and enjoy it. As far as career prospects and opportunities go, how many airline pilots do you know that get to experience half as much as any serviceman or woman? No two days in the forces are the same and that's what appeals to me, civilians have life experiences soldiers experience life.
To be honest I confuse the hell out of myself sometimes. I am the kind of person that gets an idea in their head then tries to act straight away on it, but with regards to the RAF I have taken a very different approach because to be fair its a dangerous job and the threat of me being killed during my service and never making the cockpit job has crossed my mind many times.
I have no regrets about the money I have spent so far on flying because I have loved every second of it and would do it all over again if I could.
As far as fighter control is concerned I didn't put it down as my second choice and then go on to accept it not knowing anything about it, come on I know I知 Scottish but I知 not that stupid! I have had various visits to Boulmer and Waddo even getting the chance to go through some basic scenarios on the simulators and although it isn't as exciting as flying I still get a real buzz from it and enjoy it. As far as career prospects and opportunities go, how many airline pilots do you know that get to experience half as much as any serviceman or woman? No two days in the forces are the same and that's what appeals to me, civilians have life experiences soldiers experience life.
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"｣3000 becomes ｣13000"
it's a pitty your reading skills weren't as good as your maths skills,if you had read my previous posts you would have seen the breakdown:
｣7000 on PPL + ｣3000 on IMC + ｣3000 on general flying = ｣13,000
it's a pitty your reading skills weren't as good as your maths skills,if you had read my previous posts you would have seen the breakdown:
｣7000 on PPL + ｣3000 on IMC + ｣3000 on general flying = ｣13,000
AWACS_bhoy,
It sounds to me like you've made up your mind already. Do some more thinking, be decisive and make a decision - it's only your time you'll end up wasting.
Do you not think that could happen working for an airline? I'm sure I don't have to remind you of recent events where it's not gone quite to plan. Have you thought about what you would do if you were to lose your medical because in all honesty - that's just as likely/if not more likely to happen than you getting killed in service with the RAF!
S88
It sounds to me like you've made up your mind already. Do some more thinking, be decisive and make a decision - it's only your time you'll end up wasting.
with regards to the RAF I have taken a very different approach because to be fair its a dangerous job and the threat of me being killed during my service and never making the cockpit job has crossed my mind many times.
S88
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Have you thought about what you would do if you were to lose your medical because in all honesty - that's just as likely/if not more likely to happen than you getting killed in service with the RAF!
Do you like working in enclosed spaces?
Are you allergic to the Sun?
Are you fascinated by flashing Christmas Tree lights?
Do you resemble a mole?
Are your closest friends Albinos?
If the answers to the above questions are YES....
...Join the RAF Fighter Control Branch!
Post all enquiries to:
Sqn Ldr I C Bogies
RAF Royston Vasey
Outer Hebrides
Scotlandshire
Are you allergic to the Sun?
Are you fascinated by flashing Christmas Tree lights?
Do you resemble a mole?
Are your closest friends Albinos?
If the answers to the above questions are YES....
...Join the RAF Fighter Control Branch!
Post all enquiries to:
Sqn Ldr I C Bogies
RAF Royston Vasey
Outer Hebrides
Scotlandshire
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Goodness me. This thread has become even more ridiculous.
Firstly, with bollocks maths, it's impossible for us to give any serious advice. AWACS bhoy, you seem to be a confused lad.
Now, say 50 hours for PPL and 20 hours for IMC means you have spent 150 hours 'general flying' (220-50-20=150). You say this cost ｣3000.
3000/150= ｣20 per hour. It would appear that it is your maths skills that leave a little to be required.
Secondly, after you claim that you can't afford an ATPL at 17, it turns out that you are actually the only 17 y/o that I have ever known that CAN! If it is you dream to become an airline pilot and you get ｣34k in your lap, there should be no decision to be made. Especially since you can get hour building done for ｣20 per hour!
Thirdly, the age thing has been done to death. Yes people get taken on in their 40's. No it isn't very common, in fact quite difficult. Yes, you probably will have a family to look after then. No, you will not be as flexible. If that's the way it works out, then so be it, but I certainly would not plan it that way.
Finally,
Been reading the glossy brochure?
Moral has never been lower. Living conditions never worse. Living in a bunk bed and eating in a mess tent.
I see the Armed Forces marketing dept is working well.
EK
Firstly, with bollocks maths, it's impossible for us to give any serious advice. AWACS bhoy, you seem to be a confused lad.
it's a pitty your reading skills weren't as good as your maths skills,if you had read my previous posts you would have seen the breakdown:
｣7000 on PPL + ｣3000 on IMC + ｣3000 on general flying = ｣13,000
｣7000 on PPL + ｣3000 on IMC + ｣3000 on general flying = ｣13,000
3000/150= ｣20 per hour. It would appear that it is your maths skills that leave a little to be required.
Secondly, after you claim that you can't afford an ATPL at 17, it turns out that you are actually the only 17 y/o that I have ever known that CAN! If it is you dream to become an airline pilot and you get ｣34k in your lap, there should be no decision to be made. Especially since you can get hour building done for ｣20 per hour!
Thirdly, the age thing has been done to death. Yes people get taken on in their 40's. No it isn't very common, in fact quite difficult. Yes, you probably will have a family to look after then. No, you will not be as flexible. If that's the way it works out, then so be it, but I certainly would not plan it that way.
Finally,
No two days in the forces are the same and that's what appeals to me, civilians have life experiences soldiers experience life.
Moral has never been lower. Living conditions never worse. Living in a bunk bed and eating in a mess tent.
I see the Armed Forces marketing dept is working well.
EK
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My word, is this topic still droaning on. It is the same as any job, a friend recently finished a 5 year course, doing dentistry, he comes out and has to apply for vocational training at a practice. On the open day for one of the practices there were over 150 people, for just ONE place. Welcome to the real world, just get your training done then worry about it, people retire and leave companies weekly, just focus on your training!!!
As for going to the RAF, well, if you want to be a commercial pilot ultimately in my honest opinion you're wasting your time. Nowadays you're tied to the RAF for a reasonable length, the training is nothing alike, and once you leave you still have to go on conversion courses and pay all the fees to fly commercial planes!
As for going to the RAF, well, if you want to be a commercial pilot ultimately in my honest opinion you're wasting your time. Nowadays you're tied to the RAF for a reasonable length, the training is nothing alike, and once you leave you still have to go on conversion courses and pay all the fees to fly commercial planes!
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EK4457 - I'm glad someone else has seen the confusion in AWACS-bhoy's maths (as he presents it). I felt it would be a little churlish and petty to start defending myself over the comment from AWACS about my reading skills!
If you're still there AWACS-bhoy, better to play the ball than the man eh?
You're in a fantastic position to become a professional pilot if that's what you really want, and if of course you have the skills required. Don't blow it or you'll look back in twenty years with huge regret.
As a slight aside, it's interesting you've chosen to comment on the sums, but have failed to discuss most of the other points that have ben raised. The important ones, you know, about what you really want!
You wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last to find this kind of decision difficult. And of course I may be entirely wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if you're thinking about what other people will think about your decision. Make it for yourself. Don't worry what other people will think of you. Do what you feel is right for you. Whatever that is.
If you're still there AWACS-bhoy, better to play the ball than the man eh?
You're in a fantastic position to become a professional pilot if that's what you really want, and if of course you have the skills required. Don't blow it or you'll look back in twenty years with huge regret.
As a slight aside, it's interesting you've chosen to comment on the sums, but have failed to discuss most of the other points that have ben raised. The important ones, you know, about what you really want!
You wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last to find this kind of decision difficult. And of course I may be entirely wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if you're thinking about what other people will think about your decision. Make it for yourself. Don't worry what other people will think of you. Do what you feel is right for you. Whatever that is.
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well all I can say is it's a good job I am not going to uni to do maths although I do have a B at advanced higher maths lol.
right you are all equally correct, I can now see that I am confused and uncertain about what I want I do want the forces but I do want the cockpit job. What if I was to go NCA for 5-10 years then go do my professional flight training? is this a better option? If I do decide to do this is it better/cheaper to train in the states? Again I want to reiterate I do not want to take out any sort of loan in any shape or form.
right you are all equally correct, I can now see that I am confused and uncertain about what I want I do want the forces but I do want the cockpit job. What if I was to go NCA for 5-10 years then go do my professional flight training? is this a better option? If I do decide to do this is it better/cheaper to train in the states? Again I want to reiterate I do not want to take out any sort of loan in any shape or form.
AWACS_bhoy,
I suggest you read this before you ask any more questions:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649
Hopefully you can answer a lot of your questions yourself by reading the linked threads.
S88
I suggest you read this before you ask any more questions:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649
Hopefully you can answer a lot of your questions yourself by reading the linked threads.
S88
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This is a bit ludicrous now. You claim to have enough cash to do an ATPL , you claim you want to be in the cockpit . However with this lifelong dream , bearing in mind you have only been a sentient being for about 15 ,that is only 17 years you have now elected to join the raf and sit in a dark room for 20 yrs 
Look matey , if you truly have the money do it now , if that is what you want , and to be honest the evidence supporting that isnt exactly strong. If not get a job and save up or at least look at other options . CTC for example partial sponsorships etc etc .
But DO NOT !!!!!! commit to a long commision in the arse farce if that is not what you want to do , twenty years in the pitch black surrounded by sand is not condusive to happiness , unless you WANT to do it ! You want to be an airline pilot remember
Look matey , if you truly have the money do it now , if that is what you want , and to be honest the evidence supporting that isnt exactly strong. If not get a job and save up or at least look at other options . CTC for example partial sponsorships etc etc .
But DO NOT !!!!!! commit to a long commision in the arse farce if that is not what you want to do , twenty years in the pitch black surrounded by sand is not condusive to happiness , unless you WANT to do it ! You want to be an airline pilot remember
