CTC cadet vs. OAT/Netjets
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We also won't catch you higher than 40,000ft doing 500kts plus
In all honesty have never flown a biz jet, but from personal experience thoroughly enjoy flying the 'bus'. Fairly easy working life tbh, plenty of days off (especially with my airline), sby flights to pretty much anywhere in europe and a fair bit of stability too.
. To come back to the original posters question the CTC scheme is a pretty sweet deal. Loan is normally unsecured which means you dont have to gamble mummy and daddy's house on passing your training and securing a job. I believe someone has already mentioned that everyone who has passed the course so far has been offered a position with an airline, not bad going that. The thing to bear in mind is that the selection criteria for CTC is exceptionally high and there are people who would sell thier granny to be in your position, provided you pass the training its a pretty good step up onto the ladder. Good luck to you whichever you choose.
Tacho...out!
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Thanks guys,
I do appreciate the fact that I am in a very fortunate position. Still, since it is a choice, I am gathering all the needed info.
One thing I have not been able to figure out is time to command given the current fleet expansion at NJE and at some CTC partner airlines, notably EZY - sorry if there is info on that and I missed it.
I understand as a cadet you are currently looking at 6 to 9 years after start of employment to upgrade at NJE and probably 5 to 7 at EZY, right? If so, will this change with the expanding fleet at both companies? There was a thread for NJE started on this by a military guy but there did not seem to be much of a consensus there on his prospects. So maybe for a cadet it is an easier prediction.
Also, do I understand correctly NJE has no staff travel?
I agree with everyone who said it is a choice about lifestyle and type of flying. But frankly I would like both of them very much, so the peripheral stuff may really be the deal breaker here.
I do appreciate the fact that I am in a very fortunate position. Still, since it is a choice, I am gathering all the needed info.
One thing I have not been able to figure out is time to command given the current fleet expansion at NJE and at some CTC partner airlines, notably EZY - sorry if there is info on that and I missed it.
I understand as a cadet you are currently looking at 6 to 9 years after start of employment to upgrade at NJE and probably 5 to 7 at EZY, right? If so, will this change with the expanding fleet at both companies? There was a thread for NJE started on this by a military guy but there did not seem to be much of a consensus there on his prospects. So maybe for a cadet it is an easier prediction.
Also, do I understand correctly NJE has no staff travel?
I agree with everyone who said it is a choice about lifestyle and type of flying. But frankly I would like both of them very much, so the peripheral stuff may really be the deal breaker here.
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I'm sure RedSnail (or others) can correct me if I'm remembering wrong ... but I think we were told that there is no staff/family travel at NJE as the idea of an owner sharing the cabin with someone else wasn't deemed likely (not very surprisingly...
)
However, we were definitely told that they try to be flexible in that if you wanted to end your duty period at a different 'gateway' to usual, eg so that you could meet your family who've flown in separately to holiday there, then that would be fine. Hence you can benefit, but not in the conventional manner, so to speak
Appreciate your point about "...would like them both very much" but I'd still suggest that really digging into the lifestyles would be a good idea as they are very different; are you sure you're not just saying that you'd like both very much, compared to not flying professionally (ie current position)? Or do you really mean that you feel eqally about both compared to each other? Apologies if that sounds a bit patronising - I'm just explaining my own process when comparing the two roles last year
By the way - I for one will be curious to hear which way you do decide so when you've decided do please post it eh
Cheers, BM
)However, we were definitely told that they try to be flexible in that if you wanted to end your duty period at a different 'gateway' to usual, eg so that you could meet your family who've flown in separately to holiday there, then that would be fine. Hence you can benefit, but not in the conventional manner, so to speak
Appreciate your point about "...would like them both very much" but I'd still suggest that really digging into the lifestyles would be a good idea as they are very different; are you sure you're not just saying that you'd like both very much, compared to not flying professionally (ie current position)? Or do you really mean that you feel eqally about both compared to each other? Apologies if that sounds a bit patronising - I'm just explaining my own process when comparing the two roles last year
By the way - I for one will be curious to hear which way you do decide so when you've decided do please post it eh
Cheers, BM
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Hi Businessman,
no worries that is actually a good question. What I mean is your second interpretation, ie I like them very much and equally.
To be very precise I prefer the NJ type of flying and the variety of routes, but I would prefer a bigger plane (a bus) over a smaller one.
I will certainly post my decision and how I came to it. Still glad to hear about the t 2 command issue if anyone has comments. It is not totally clear to me whether companies manage to match recruiting and fleet expansion when they occur and the effect on getting a left seat
no worries that is actually a good question. What I mean is your second interpretation, ie I like them very much and equally.
To be very precise I prefer the NJ type of flying and the variety of routes, but I would prefer a bigger plane (a bus
) over a smaller one.I will certainly post my decision and how I came to it. Still glad to hear about the t 2 command issue if anyone has comments. It is not totally clear to me whether companies manage to match recruiting and fleet expansion when they occur and the effect on getting a left seat
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Hi SE (good name by the way
), no worries.
However I'd still (...respectfully...) suggest taking a brief moment to consider the comparative lifestyles themselves, not just the plane or the flying as those are different things to what I'm driving at. One for you to think about, or not, I'll shut up on that one now
I also will be interested to hear about time to command expectations with NJE - during my OAT interview they seemed very surprised when I said that in 5 years I hoped to be in the LH seat. I'd based that on the hours necessary from NJE's own website and some inference from that. Maybe they were so shocked at OAT because one of my interviewers was a BA FO and the thought of anyone moving that fast in BA from starting blocks would be much less likely.
Was I way out? What is realistic? Very interested to hear from anyone with NJE... RedSnail can you enlighten us?
Cheers, BM
), no worries.However I'd still (...respectfully...) suggest taking a brief moment to consider the comparative lifestyles themselves, not just the plane or the flying as those are different things to what I'm driving at. One for you to think about, or not, I'll shut up on that one now
I also will be interested to hear about time to command expectations with NJE - during my OAT interview they seemed very surprised when I said that in 5 years I hoped to be in the LH seat. I'd based that on the hours necessary from NJE's own website and some inference from that. Maybe they were so shocked at OAT because one of my interviewers was a BA FO and the thought of anyone moving that fast in BA from starting blocks would be much less likely
.Was I way out? What is realistic? Very interested to hear from anyone with NJE... RedSnail can you enlighten us?
Cheers, BM
Last edited by BusinessMan; 25th Jan 2008 at 05:53.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I'm on hols at the moment enjoying the awesome powder in Vail. That's a bloody good lifestyle
Staff travel. No, none. You do accumulate miles on airlines if that's a goal. You can have temporary gateways. Eg, you have a party in Rome, make that a temporary change so you'll be flown there at the end of your tour and you can start there. You can also change gateways as needs change. We have guys who spend winter in the Swiss Alps and thus use Geneva and Summer in Malaga. People have also used their travel to the US as a launch for holidays too. Occassionally, you can hitch a lift home on a positioning NJE flight. That's very nice.
In comparison to easyJet's staff travel. We've found that more often than not, it's easier and cheaper to book through the normal channels given enough notice. It's only short notice flights where it's a benefit.
Time to command. 2,500 hours absolute min, 3,000 hours usually. Plan on 400 hours a year. If you do better, you're laughing. This is where easyJet has an advantage. (Other airlines on the CTC scheme may not do as many hours)
Lifestyle's important to me. I am not chasing hours. I work approx 30 to 50 days less than my husband in easyJet. Difference in pay? About £6,000 or so. (he earns more).
There's talk about "big jets". I am not interested in "big jets" as they can't do what I can do in my Hawker. Besides, the avionics suite is more advanced than most "big jets" any way. If I want to go bigger.. there's the Falcon 7X or a G550. Tough choice. Personally, I think I'd prefer the Hawker 4000 or maybe the Falcon 2000 EASy. Go and check out the flight decks on those aircraft.
However, I understand that the "big jet" desire is real. We've had a few guys return to NJE after leaving to fly a "big jet". Big as in 744. Others, 737 etc. They got bored and have returned.
The 2 jobs are different.
Staff travel. No, none. You do accumulate miles on airlines if that's a goal. You can have temporary gateways. Eg, you have a party in Rome, make that a temporary change so you'll be flown there at the end of your tour and you can start there. You can also change gateways as needs change. We have guys who spend winter in the Swiss Alps and thus use Geneva and Summer in Malaga. People have also used their travel to the US as a launch for holidays too. Occassionally, you can hitch a lift home on a positioning NJE flight. That's very nice.
In comparison to easyJet's staff travel. We've found that more often than not, it's easier and cheaper to book through the normal channels given enough notice. It's only short notice flights where it's a benefit.
Time to command. 2,500 hours absolute min, 3,000 hours usually. Plan on 400 hours a year. If you do better, you're laughing.
This is where easyJet has an advantage. (Other airlines on the CTC scheme may not do as many hours)Lifestyle's important to me. I am not chasing hours. I work approx 30 to 50 days less than my husband in easyJet. Difference in pay? About £6,000 or so. (he earns more).
There's talk about "big jets". I am not interested in "big jets" as they can't do what I can do in my Hawker. Besides, the avionics suite is more advanced than most "big jets" any way. If I want to go bigger.. there's the Falcon 7X or a G550. Tough choice.
Personally, I think I'd prefer the Hawker 4000 or maybe the Falcon 2000 EASy. Go and check out the flight decks on those aircraft. However, I understand that the "big jet" desire is real. We've had a few guys return to NJE after leaving to fly a "big jet". Big as in 744. Others, 737 etc. They got bored and have returned.
The 2 jobs are different.
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alright, I got a few request to post my choice and as promised here it is (incidentally sorry for the wait, after I made a decision I got caught up in the start of training and various errands)
First of all both programs are very strong, both in terms of the quality of training you get and the professional avenues that they open up for you, so you can't go wrong. In my choice I considered primarily two factors that mattered the most to me, one being the type of financing scheme and the other one being time to command with the prospective employers. Based on that I chose CTC.
As of now CTC provides a fully unsecured loan, while OAT requires about 50k pounds in secured loans. That was a knock out in favor of CTC. Re: t2c with NJE you are looking at a minimum of 8 years to the left seat (400h/y to build 3000h), while with the so far largest partner of CTC (Easyjet) you are looking at possibly 6/7 years, so on that one CTC also won (though slightly, and other CTC partner airlines have much longer t2c t).
There was another factor that I kept in some consideration (mentioned by several of you), which was how robust the prospective employers were in terms of their business. To that regard I believe NJE has an advantage, as it seems to have a market both when the economy goes bad - companies sell their corporate jets and send their managers to fly with NJE - and of course when the economy looks bright - more millionaires to be flown around.
There were several other issues that were mentioned and that I believe one should consider (big vs. small jets, lifestyle, etc.), but to me they all played out equally in terms of my choice. So in the end I decided based on the things that really made a difference between the two schools, and those are the three (mainly the first two) factors mentioned above.
Hope this will help others make a good decision if needed.
Happy flying,
First of all both programs are very strong, both in terms of the quality of training you get and the professional avenues that they open up for you, so you can't go wrong. In my choice I considered primarily two factors that mattered the most to me, one being the type of financing scheme and the other one being time to command with the prospective employers. Based on that I chose CTC.
As of now CTC provides a fully unsecured loan, while OAT requires about 50k pounds in secured loans. That was a knock out in favor of CTC. Re: t2c with NJE you are looking at a minimum of 8 years to the left seat (400h/y to build 3000h), while with the so far largest partner of CTC (Easyjet) you are looking at possibly 6/7 years, so on that one CTC also won (though slightly, and other CTC partner airlines have much longer t2c t).
There was another factor that I kept in some consideration (mentioned by several of you), which was how robust the prospective employers were in terms of their business. To that regard I believe NJE has an advantage, as it seems to have a market both when the economy goes bad - companies sell their corporate jets and send their managers to fly with NJE - and of course when the economy looks bright - more millionaires to be flown around.
There were several other issues that were mentioned and that I believe one should consider (big vs. small jets, lifestyle, etc.), but to me they all played out equally in terms of my choice. So in the end I decided based on the things that really made a difference between the two schools, and those are the three (mainly the first two) factors mentioned above.
Hope this will help others make a good decision if needed.
Happy flying,
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Maybe you should think about who is a better bet in a struggling and uncertain market. Both CTC and OATS don't guarantee jobs at the end.....so think employment. Most of the CTC partner airlines are struggling right now and as far as NJE goes, who knows what will happen. Plenty of theses schemes have dumped cadets when the going's got tough. BA, Mytravel, Air Lingus, Thomsonfly etc. Pick what you think is the safest bet.
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Both CTC and OATS don't guarantee jobs at the end....
Both of this scheme are brilliant. CTC has just launched a Cityjet wing cadet scheme :
CityJet Wings
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Well Bambie, in that case I stand corrected and take you at your word. If I was starting again, no question about it, I'd take the NJE scheme. CityJet? A crap paying airline operating out of bases with the highest living costs around and a long time to command. They are not at the level of other airlines CTC are hooked up with. It would take a long time to pay back the money you owe to the bank on CityJet pay. Of course, this all assumes you're good enough to have the option of which scheme to do. Beggars can't be choosers.
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with regards to NJE captaincy, at the Flyer show in April I was able to ask the question to NJE about the time to the left seat for OAA cadets - the lady from NJE said they are considering lowering the requirement to 2000 hrs specifically for NJE cadets, hence making it possible to get to the left seat in between 3-4 years for those on the scheme
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Go back on OAA website... you're simply wrong. Each Netjet cadet who complete the course to the Netjet standards will be offered a position on a type rating course....
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Apologise so! I haven't read the contract but as specified on OAA web site it looked like the position was guaranted upon completion of the training.
Is this clause about a holding pool?
Sorry Fair weather flyer
Bambe
Is this clause about a holding pool?
Sorry Fair weather flyer
Bambe
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Let me guess.... you drive a bus
Unless of course you mean a bizjet, which would be more accurately described as a 'minibus', or maybe a 'blackcab'.
Seriously though, netjets does sound like an interesting option, particularly the gateways bit. Anyone know what conventional airlines think of light bizjet (citation bravo, etc.) experience? I believe BA for example require hours on an aircraft with an MTOW of 10000kg or more. Do many airlines have similar requirements and if so, do many of the netjet fleets meet those requirements? obviously only relevant if that's something that may interest you down the line.
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There is no hold pool as a NJE cadet - simply an employment contract which is conditional on satisfactory completion of the training course which is a fairly open clause enabling NJE to not take someone on if they are struggling with exams / check rides / general application etc.
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The cadets will get about 225 hours at OAA and I bet a few of them have previous flight hours.
Probably one for Redsnail, but as for time to command, do NetJets care what the time is in?
Probably one for Redsnail, but as for time to command, do NetJets care what the time is in?
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I thought I would add my 2 cents worth to this thread. Its a pretty tough decision you have. I have gone through the CTC selection and am glad to say will be heading out to NZ in september. Beforehand though I also applied for Netjets but decided to go for CTC as ultimately I would like to be flying large jets and CTC offers a nice route in. Selection was fun (especially the sim!) for CTC and providing you get through I think you will be impressed with CTC. As far as Netjets/OAA selection, I'm not sure as I didn't go through with it but it sounds very similar other than instead of a sim check, you get a nice trip to Lisbon (all expenses paid) for an equally intense interview. (I've always wondered whether you get flown there on one of their bizjets?
)
You've many factors to take into account, start with the training. CTC are geared towards getting you an airline job therefore all training is airline focussed from their selection process to the way they schedule aircraft for training. The airlines that you will most likely be flying for are very similar and CTC specialise in training for that type of flying. OAA aren't as focussed to airline operations and you will receive a 'generic' training programme, i.e. a programme that is designed to fit all sorts of airlines from BA to small charter airlines. So ask yourself what you would like to do ultimately. Also take into account where you would prefer to train. I know it is a short term view but remember you will be spending a minimum of 14 months out in either Phoenix or Hamilton.
Secondly, the job for Netjets is a lot more interesting and fun. You will be flying state of the art business jets into both large european hubs and small challenging airports. You will be carrying the elite businessmen of europe rather than a rowdy bunch of package holiday makers!
Once again, it is your preference as to what you would like to be doing.
As for job security, no FTO can 'guarantee' you a job but whichever one of the two you go for, your job security will be pretty high (touch wood) as Netjets will have preselected you and CTC have placed every student with a partner airline. Also, the airlines you will be working for if you choose CTC are probably going to be easyJet or BA and along with Netjets have all placed large orders for aircraft and are stable businesses that will stand an extremely high chance of riding out a recession.
Obviously I'm biased as I chose CTC in the end. Good luck in your decision whatever it is and I may see you out in NZ!
Gary
)You've many factors to take into account, start with the training. CTC are geared towards getting you an airline job therefore all training is airline focussed from their selection process to the way they schedule aircraft for training. The airlines that you will most likely be flying for are very similar and CTC specialise in training for that type of flying. OAA aren't as focussed to airline operations and you will receive a 'generic' training programme, i.e. a programme that is designed to fit all sorts of airlines from BA to small charter airlines. So ask yourself what you would like to do ultimately. Also take into account where you would prefer to train. I know it is a short term view but remember you will be spending a minimum of 14 months out in either Phoenix or Hamilton.
Secondly, the job for Netjets is a lot more interesting and fun. You will be flying state of the art business jets into both large european hubs and small challenging airports. You will be carrying the elite businessmen of europe rather than a rowdy bunch of package holiday makers!
Once again, it is your preference as to what you would like to be doing.As for job security, no FTO can 'guarantee' you a job but whichever one of the two you go for, your job security will be pretty high (touch wood) as Netjets will have preselected you and CTC have placed every student with a partner airline. Also, the airlines you will be working for if you choose CTC are probably going to be easyJet or BA and along with Netjets have all placed large orders for aircraft and are stable businesses that will stand an extremely high chance of riding out a recession.
Obviously I'm biased as I chose CTC in the end. Good luck in your decision whatever it is and I may see you out in NZ!
Gary
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Unfortunately, you have to make do with TAP rather than a Hawker when you go to Lisbon
Also - as a minor point - you only spend 5 months in Phoenix with OAA (fortunately as it is over 42 degrees most days here) and the rest in not-so-sunny Kidlington. In that respect, FTE and CTC beat OAA for location
Also - as a minor point - you only spend 5 months in Phoenix with OAA (fortunately as it is over 42 degrees most days here) and the rest in not-so-sunny Kidlington. In that respect, FTE and CTC beat OAA for location