Funding
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Funding
Dear All,
I am really having a hard time getting the money together to do an integrated ATPL(A) course and wondered if some of you could offer me advice.
A little about me - i'm ex-military aircrew with 400 hours and no licences. I've approximately 200 hours fixed wing, 200 rotary and haven't flown in over a year (I was chopped towards the end of training).
I have secured a place at Oxford but the bank (HSBC) won't lend me the money I need to do the course.
I don't own a property so have no security. I don't have any family who can help me with that. I have an office job now and earn a dismal wage (relatively speaking!) so have no money of my own in terms of savings.
Is there anyone out there who comes from a similar position? If so I would really like to speak with you because doors keep closing in my face at the moment and for the first time in my life i've started to contemplate life without flying. It is simply awful!
Also if anyone has contacts (name, telephone number, e-mail etc) for any banks other than HSBC I would appreciate you sharing those with me.
I hope somebody out there can help!
flyhiguy
I am really having a hard time getting the money together to do an integrated ATPL(A) course and wondered if some of you could offer me advice.
A little about me - i'm ex-military aircrew with 400 hours and no licences. I've approximately 200 hours fixed wing, 200 rotary and haven't flown in over a year (I was chopped towards the end of training).
I have secured a place at Oxford but the bank (HSBC) won't lend me the money I need to do the course.
I don't own a property so have no security. I don't have any family who can help me with that. I have an office job now and earn a dismal wage (relatively speaking!) so have no money of my own in terms of savings.
Is there anyone out there who comes from a similar position? If so I would really like to speak with you because doors keep closing in my face at the moment and for the first time in my life i've started to contemplate life without flying. It is simply awful!
Also if anyone has contacts (name, telephone number, e-mail etc) for any banks other than HSBC I would appreciate you sharing those with me.
I hope somebody out there can help!
flyhiguy
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You have no civilian flying experience and no licenses
You have no property on which you could secure finances
You have no one around you who could lend you the money
The ONLY bank who even considers funding pilots doesn't want to know you
You have a job that pays very little
...and you want to become an commercial pilot?
Seriously mate. Loans available to Joe Average Wannabe, above £25k, require to be secured on property. Sorry no way out. With your situation, it's just not possible without hard work, sweat, time and therefore patience. The sooner you learn and plan around this reality the sooner you will be flying commercially.
Oh and I advise you to read the sticky subject threads on this forum. Everybody and their pet dog is advising people not to fork out on things they can't afford.
You have no property on which you could secure finances
You have no one around you who could lend you the money
The ONLY bank who even considers funding pilots doesn't want to know you
You have a job that pays very little
...and you want to become an commercial pilot?
Seriously mate. Loans available to Joe Average Wannabe, above £25k, require to be secured on property. Sorry no way out. With your situation, it's just not possible without hard work, sweat, time and therefore patience. The sooner you learn and plan around this reality the sooner you will be flying commercially.
Oh and I advise you to read the sticky subject threads on this forum. Everybody and their pet dog is advising people not to fork out on things they can't afford.
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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Why not go down the modular route? It can cost considerably less, you can train at your own pace i.e. train as funds permit, and you can remain in employment whilst doing it all. Don’t rule out training just because you can’t go Integrated.
Do lots of research. Start here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251490, and go from there.
Good luck
S
Do lots of research. Start here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251490, and go from there.
Good luck
S
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Just to clarify fellas, i'm almost 30 years old and far from free of debt.
I don't have time to be fannying around. The integrated course appealed because it's quick and easy. And the airlines like it!
I am obviously considering modular even though i'll have to start from stage 1, i.e. PPL!
I appreciate your comments, I know the predicament i'm in - i'm not going to be able to get the money together in time by 'sweating' or working hard, i'll be too old then.
I need a loan and need it sharpish.
Once again if anyone has any bank contacts please feel free to leave me a private message with the details. I would be most grateful.
flyhiguy
I don't have time to be fannying around. The integrated course appealed because it's quick and easy. And the airlines like it!
I am obviously considering modular even though i'll have to start from stage 1, i.e. PPL!
I appreciate your comments, I know the predicament i'm in - i'm not going to be able to get the money together in time by 'sweating' or working hard, i'll be too old then.
I need a loan and need it sharpish.
Once again if anyone has any bank contacts please feel free to leave me a private message with the details. I would be most grateful.
flyhiguy
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With respect, have you done any research? Do you know why people choose HSBC as a first port of call for pilot funding?
It's because they allow you to defer repayments on the loan for up to 18 months. You need that because you're not going to be in a job whilst doing the integrated course!
If HSBC have rejected your application for a loan then that's your best chance gone. But do you honestly think there's loan sharks out there who allow loan repayments to be deferred for that long? on a loan of £60k++???
Ask anyone who knows anything about loans (namely the banks and loan companies themselves). You're living in cuckoo-land if you believe you're ever going to get any unsecured loan for more than £25k with deferred payments for that long.
Good luck anyhow.
It's because they allow you to defer repayments on the loan for up to 18 months. You need that because you're not going to be in a job whilst doing the integrated course!
If HSBC have rejected your application for a loan then that's your best chance gone. But do you honestly think there's loan sharks out there who allow loan repayments to be deferred for that long? on a loan of £60k++???
Ask anyone who knows anything about loans (namely the banks and loan companies themselves). You're living in cuckoo-land if you believe you're ever going to get any unsecured loan for more than £25k with deferred payments for that long.
Good luck anyhow.
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Have you contacted the CAA and asked them your specific requirments , after all you have more flying experience than your Integrated graduate albeit without the necessary paperwork? Im sure a PPL will just be a skills test surely so thats saved ya five grand the hour building is uneccessary I would imagine thats saved another 20 ish give or take . You may also get round some of the atpls but not sure on that . So you need CPL/MULTI/IR and MCC thats a lot less than 60 grand . But as said above do your research and find out exactly what you need and adjust accordingly.
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As I see it you have 2 options. Both of which definitely involve forgetting about doing an Integrated course at OAT, sorry.
1) Talk to CTC - being ex-military their selection should be pretty easy for you (relatively speaking) and I believe they have some specialist funding arrangements (I could be wrong but can't hurt to ask 'em).
2) Seriously suggest listening to MaxDryPower. You won't find that kind of lending unsecured (certainly not from anyone you should consider borrowing from anyway
) but, more pertinently, you have already done a lot of the expensive bit of training (ie flying hours). Look seriously at the modular route rather than paying for lots of those hours over again.
If you are not yet 30 then you don't need to be so scared about your age. ... If you want to fear something then fear the shifting economic winds (
) but that's all the more reason to consider keeping your debts manageable in the event of a downturn by thinking of capitalising on your existing hours by going modular.
Just my 2penneth
BM
1) Talk to CTC - being ex-military their selection should be pretty easy for you (relatively speaking) and I believe they have some specialist funding arrangements (I could be wrong but can't hurt to ask 'em).
2) Seriously suggest listening to MaxDryPower. You won't find that kind of lending unsecured (certainly not from anyone you should consider borrowing from anyway
) but, more pertinently, you have already done a lot of the expensive bit of training (ie flying hours). Look seriously at the modular route rather than paying for lots of those hours over again.If you are not yet 30 then you don't need to be so scared about your age. ... If you want to fear something then fear the shifting economic winds (
) but that's all the more reason to consider keeping your debts manageable in the event of a downturn by thinking of capitalising on your existing hours by going modular.Just my 2penneth
BM
Last edited by BusinessMan; 19th Dec 2007 at 21:21. Reason: spleling
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FlyHigh.
I was in exactly your position a year ago. Although I stayed in the RN.
If you have passed JEFTS then you have everything you need for the PPL. Some refresher training (2-3 hours) and a Skills Test will sort the PPL out (approx cost £500).
It does sound like you will struggle to get the funding for OAT. If you must go Integrated then try CTC. I passed their selection but decided spending so long in NZ wasn't for me (I have a son who needs me around quite badly at the mo!) but my bezzy mate also an ex RN Officer also walked the selection and is just coming to the end of his training. With CTC you need not have any funds at all. No security, nothing. They also guarantee you a job! Although I suspect, post training, you will have to enter a holding pool these days (the industry is looking a little wobbly at the mo).
Although I have kept the big money coming in as an RN Officer for a few years I am making the big jump next year and at 32 am going modular. At the best I reckon I'll end up instructing for a year on almost sod all wages and then try like buggery for a TP position with a regional.
You can work and train, no matter how soul destroying your current job is it is providing some cash! I am afraid that there is no majic pot of money and borrowing is now going to be very expensive and very risky!
Keep the faith, I did, it does work out, eventually! Also RELAX if you are worried about getting to old. This side of 35 is cool. Time to let OAT go?...
MFWF
I was in exactly your position a year ago. Although I stayed in the RN.
If you have passed JEFTS then you have everything you need for the PPL. Some refresher training (2-3 hours) and a Skills Test will sort the PPL out (approx cost £500).
It does sound like you will struggle to get the funding for OAT. If you must go Integrated then try CTC. I passed their selection but decided spending so long in NZ wasn't for me (I have a son who needs me around quite badly at the mo!) but my bezzy mate also an ex RN Officer also walked the selection and is just coming to the end of his training. With CTC you need not have any funds at all. No security, nothing. They also guarantee you a job! Although I suspect, post training, you will have to enter a holding pool these days (the industry is looking a little wobbly at the mo).
Although I have kept the big money coming in as an RN Officer for a few years I am making the big jump next year and at 32 am going modular. At the best I reckon I'll end up instructing for a year on almost sod all wages and then try like buggery for a TP position with a regional.
You can work and train, no matter how soul destroying your current job is it is providing some cash! I am afraid that there is no majic pot of money and borrowing is now going to be very expensive and very risky!
Keep the faith, I did, it does work out, eventually! Also RELAX if you are worried about getting to old. This side of 35 is cool. Time to let OAT go?...
MFWF
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Thanks
Hi Everybody,
Thanks for your advice, I am taking it all on board.
I have tried CTC but failed the final stage - had a shocker of an interview but will go back to them - thanks mfwf (I know who your mate is, also a good mate of mine!).
Someone has given me a contact at Natwest who helped with funding. No security required AND an 18 month repayment holiday (Superpilot). I will be in touch with Natwest in the new year.
I do have a PPL(A) albeit an expired one!
I'm going to take stock of my situation over the Christmas and New Year period and start 2008 with a clear plan of action. It may be that I find a school in Florida and just crack everything there - CPL and ATPL theory (JAA) then back to the UK for the mega-expensive IR! Oh, and MCC and all that jazz...
Thank you for your comments, please feel free to keep them coming guys.
flyhiguy
Thanks for your advice, I am taking it all on board.
I have tried CTC but failed the final stage - had a shocker of an interview but will go back to them - thanks mfwf (I know who your mate is, also a good mate of mine!).
Someone has given me a contact at Natwest who helped with funding. No security required AND an 18 month repayment holiday (Superpilot). I will be in touch with Natwest in the new year.
I do have a PPL(A) albeit an expired one!
I'm going to take stock of my situation over the Christmas and New Year period and start 2008 with a clear plan of action. It may be that I find a school in Florida and just crack everything there - CPL and ATPL theory (JAA) then back to the UK for the mega-expensive IR! Oh, and MCC and all that jazz...
Thank you for your comments, please feel free to keep them coming guys.
flyhiguy
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Just to clarify fellas, i'm almost 30 years old and far from free of debt.
I don't have time to be fannying around. The integrated course appealed because it's quick and easy. And the airlines like it!
I am obviously considering modular even though i'll have to start from stage 1, i.e. PPL!
I appreciate your comments, I know the predicament i'm in - i'm not going to be able to get the money together in time by 'sweating' or working hard, i'll be too old then.
I need a loan and need it sharpish.
Once again if anyone has any bank contacts please feel free to leave me a private message with the details. I would be most grateful.
flyhiguy
I know it will take a while but, Get a cheap property in a decent upcoming area, Sell it 3/4 years later, Then get another property and put some extra work and equity into it.
At the same time, Do all your exams & revisions, Maybe afford to do a little flying build it up slowly.
Try and sell your property and the money left over put towards the licences.
I know this is a really slow way, But each time you sell a property you will make money on it, Even a couple of thousand will get you on your way initially, But at the same time you are getting your exams done, And in x amount of years you could be doing your CPL & IR.
This way it is a kind of self-improver route, But you are not getting a Giant loan, You are paying for it as you go, With the equity in the property you have being selling.
Then you may be in a better position to get a frozen ATPL & maybe a loan alot less than you first thought??
This all might sound long in the tooth but maybe just another way to score your ultimate goal??
I don't have time to be fannying around. The integrated course appealed because it's quick and easy. And the airlines like it!
I am obviously considering modular even though i'll have to start from stage 1, i.e. PPL!
I appreciate your comments, I know the predicament i'm in - i'm not going to be able to get the money together in time by 'sweating' or working hard, i'll be too old then.
I need a loan and need it sharpish.
Once again if anyone has any bank contacts please feel free to leave me a private message with the details. I would be most grateful.
flyhiguy
I know it will take a while but, Get a cheap property in a decent upcoming area, Sell it 3/4 years later, Then get another property and put some extra work and equity into it.
At the same time, Do all your exams & revisions, Maybe afford to do a little flying build it up slowly.
Try and sell your property and the money left over put towards the licences.
I know this is a really slow way, But each time you sell a property you will make money on it, Even a couple of thousand will get you on your way initially, But at the same time you are getting your exams done, And in x amount of years you could be doing your CPL & IR.
This way it is a kind of self-improver route, But you are not getting a Giant loan, You are paying for it as you go, With the equity in the property you have being selling.
Then you may be in a better position to get a frozen ATPL & maybe a loan alot less than you first thought??
This all might sound long in the tooth but maybe just another way to score your ultimate goal??
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Really, your efforts are akin to applying for a position as CEO of a highly successful business at age 25 with no business qualifications. I'm not taking the piss, just helping you realise much earlier what you're bound to realise later on!
Natwest stopped funding professional pilot studies around 3-4 years ago. I've been a (professional) wannabe for a long time you know!
I know about these things 
Natwest stopped funding professional pilot studies around 3-4 years ago. I've been a (professional) wannabe for a long time you know!
I know about these things
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Hi Guys,
Thanks Byalphaindia, it's good advice and I will think about it.
Superpilot, can you please let me know whether or not you are working as an airline pilot at the moment? Your points are valid, trust me, I have done plenty of research myself.
flyhiguy
Thanks Byalphaindia, it's good advice and I will think about it.
Superpilot, can you please let me know whether or not you are working as an airline pilot at the moment? Your points are valid, trust me, I have done plenty of research myself.
flyhiguy
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Start off by revalidating your PPL - that puts you in a stronger position straight away, especially with 400+ hours. Then think very carefully about the pros and cons of integrated vs modular. You could always use the money saved during the modular route to do a FI course and spend a year or 2 instructing? Plenty of FI jobs around at the moment for decent people and it gives you more options, as well as staying current rather than sitting sending out CVs from the ground for 6+ months.
I've certainly had no complaints about the quality of training I received during my modular course, although it does help to do CPL/IR with the same school as I did. I struggled to put any negative points at all on my end of course washup - even the free coffee & tea were drinkable, certainly beat pusser's instant!
Oh, and finally... Good luck!!
(23, chopped on FHT @ DEFTS, now CPL/IR with first time passes in all exams & flight tests - the pressure's a different type, so you shouldn't struggle with the flying.)
I've certainly had no complaints about the quality of training I received during my modular course, although it does help to do CPL/IR with the same school as I did. I struggled to put any negative points at all on my end of course washup - even the free coffee & tea were drinkable, certainly beat pusser's instant!
Oh, and finally... Good luck!!
(23, chopped on FHT @ DEFTS, now CPL/IR with first time passes in all exams & flight tests - the pressure's a different type, so you shouldn't struggle with the flying.)
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Thanks again for your advice everyone!
Through this post I have a contact who is going to assist with a business plan for Natwest. I'll be seeing them in the new year.
Madlandrover, where did you do your modular training and how much did it cost etc? I'm thinking florida is the most plausable option simply because it's cheaper.
Have a great Christmas everyone! Please feel free to keep posing, I am reading with interest!
flyhiguy
Through this post I have a contact who is going to assist with a business plan for Natwest. I'll be seeing them in the new year.
Madlandrover, where did you do your modular training and how much did it cost etc? I'm thinking florida is the most plausable option simply because it's cheaper.
Have a great Christmas everyone! Please feel free to keep posing, I am reading with interest!
flyhiguy
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I did CPL/IR and MCC at Halfpenny Green Flight Centre, Wolverhampton - and don't have a single bad word about them, since I'll also be starting an FI course there in a few months time. Even the coffee's decent in the PPL building... Reasonable prices and most of the airborne training is on the DA-42 Twinstar, a very nice piece of kit indeed to fly, and with significantly higher IR first time pass rates than other aircraft. Their prices are on their website and are pretty much exactly what I paid.
Yes, Florida is cheaper, but there are question marks over how relevant the training is there - without wanting to touch on the debate of the quality of training, the flying environment over there is of course different to other countries. This can lead to conversion courses being a bit longer than expected, so wiping out most of the saving. Not to say that there aren't of course plenty of perfectly good FAA ATPLs flying! But I know which option I went with & why...
Yes, Florida is cheaper, but there are question marks over how relevant the training is there - without wanting to touch on the debate of the quality of training, the flying environment over there is of course different to other countries. This can lead to conversion courses being a bit longer than expected, so wiping out most of the saving. Not to say that there aren't of course plenty of perfectly good FAA ATPLs flying! But I know which option I went with & why...
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flyhiguy28,
I'm quite sure many others have faced the frustration that you have but as a start have you looked at what you have already got?
Don't assume that your 400 hours already accrued are useless. One of the biggest costs from modular training is the hours building, 100 hours at £100 per hour.
The CAA may allow you to transfer hours from any aircraft you have flown for which there is a civil version, and here I'm thinking mainly the Grob 115 and the Slingsby T67. Likewise they may give you an allowance towards granting your PPL as a "qualified service pilot". I don't know the full ins and outs, but many years ago some of my colleagues PVR'd having spoken to the CAA. They sent their log books in and were given a certain number of hours credited and details of what they still needed to to for licence issue, which they then took to a major UK based pilot training establishment.
These hours included rotary and fixed wing. I never got to know what happened to them, but the issue here is, if you don't ask you don't get.
Just my thoughts,
Obs cop
I'm quite sure many others have faced the frustration that you have but as a start have you looked at what you have already got?
Don't assume that your 400 hours already accrued are useless. One of the biggest costs from modular training is the hours building, 100 hours at £100 per hour.
The CAA may allow you to transfer hours from any aircraft you have flown for which there is a civil version, and here I'm thinking mainly the Grob 115 and the Slingsby T67. Likewise they may give you an allowance towards granting your PPL as a "qualified service pilot". I don't know the full ins and outs, but many years ago some of my colleagues PVR'd having spoken to the CAA. They sent their log books in and were given a certain number of hours credited and details of what they still needed to to for licence issue, which they then took to a major UK based pilot training establishment.
These hours included rotary and fixed wing. I never got to know what happened to them, but the issue here is, if you don't ask you don't get.
Just my thoughts,
Obs cop
I was in the same position in 01 left the military 3 months before sept 11th.
That really screwed things up.
I didn't have the cash to pay for my courses and the banks were hopeless.
I set up my own companies and used them for the trg and also the VAT.
I went down the modular route, I now am working as a FI and applying for jobs. The company now gives me a regular income while I am hour building and looking for that first proper position. Its not easy but a good attitude and steely determination will get you through.
The hard part is the job hunting.
I managed to get a career development loan, it is a government supported scheme, they gave me £8K its a start.
If you want some lessons, please PM me.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
That really screwed things up.
I didn't have the cash to pay for my courses and the banks were hopeless.
I set up my own companies and used them for the trg and also the VAT.
I went down the modular route, I now am working as a FI and applying for jobs. The company now gives me a regular income while I am hour building and looking for that first proper position. Its not easy but a good attitude and steely determination will get you through.
The hard part is the job hunting.
I managed to get a career development loan, it is a government supported scheme, they gave me £8K its a start.
If you want some lessons, please PM me.
Honi soit qui mal y pense