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Citation Type Rating or Flight Instructors Course?

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Citation Type Rating or Flight Instructors Course?

Old 6th Nov 2007, 12:02
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Citation Type Rating or Flight Instructors Course?

So here it is.......Final finished my ATPL(A) Training. First time passes on everything 260hrs later, chances of walking into an airline job...5%

So folks here is the question, Do you do the Citation type rating knowing its the most popular small business yet around and hope to get picked up, Knowing that with the amount of hours you have you probably will not even get looked at, or do you do what the rest of the flock do, go down FIC street and put up with the bad weather low hour flying, and of course not enough money to pay back your loans.

What would you do?...........................................
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Old 6th Nov 2007, 12:26
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Do your FIC, the biz jet route with 250 hours is going to be tough to crack.
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Old 6th Nov 2007, 12:34
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Then again there are pilots picked up by Ryan air with 200 hrs total .... catch is paying for your 737 TR.
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Old 6th Nov 2007, 12:36
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........and everything else!!!
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Old 6th Nov 2007, 13:53
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FIC

Learn to fly again.....expand your knowledge....learn how to teach along with trying to master the black art of being able to talk in a constructive manner and fly accurately at the same time.

Sure the money is crap and the job may be at the bottom of the food chain; however what you learn about flying and indeed the way you fly is second to none. An FIC will improve your ability as a pilot..not just flying wise; thinking wise and knowledge wise. I doubt a Citation rating does this to the same extent??

Its all about what YOU want at the end of the day though?
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Old 6th Nov 2007, 14:44
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Hear hear!


The Cav
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Old 6th Nov 2007, 15:22
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Hi
I have juggled with these 2 options for the last year since qualifying and have just decided to go down the FI route which I'm starting the couse for in 3 weeks time.
The risk of paying for a Citation TR and not getting a job after was too much of a risk for me and there seem to be FI jobs out there in abundance. Other than that an FI rating is for life so as long as I stay fit then whatever my circumstances I'll still always be able to get paid to fly!
Looking forward to the new challenge of teaching and helping people to achieve their dreams whilst getting myself the improved skills and new experiences that an FI job will give me.

Good luck
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Old 6th Nov 2007, 22:35
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good choice ramshorn!
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 08:52
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Cheers mate!
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 10:01
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Im doing the FI too, as the above mentioned posts say, its all about making yourself a better more proficient pilot. Im actaully going to instruct for a year or two then do my IR after, slightly unconventional, but, I feel I will be in a much stronger position for this then. Plus have some hours and experience behind me.

Good luck!

Expedite
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Old 9th Nov 2007, 23:26
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Join Date: Feb 2001
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wheresryan2, what you chose to do in the end is up to you! However, enevitably, you want to be flying jets as opposed to flying 152's around your local airfield?!

Just to give you a brief summary on my background. I qualified 5 years ago and never got a job until early this year. I only had 250 hours and didn't pass everything first time. I kept my ratings alive during the last couple of years but didn't fly that much as I couldn't really afford to.

However, I got lucky.....I got a job offer and ended up having to pay for a type rating on a Citation. I was always against paying for a type rating. Considering the amount of money we put into our initial training, it was crazy to warrant a further 10-15,000. However, you try to get a job without a rating! Its virtually impossible. The tables have certainly turned now in the aviation world and you have to be extremely lucky to get a job without having to put your hand in your pocket - or even your bank managers!! Also, just to be clear - I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth - the complete opposite. My parents couldn't afford for me to go to Uni let alone pay for my flying!! I certainly understand the value of money and the sheer expense behind it all. So many of my flying colleagues would talk about 5000 being a small amount to pay for a variety of courses - I thought these people were crazy - but in flying terms, everything is expensive.

I am now fully qualified to fly corporate jets and its the bollocks!! Flying to a variety of different countries on a regular basis; flying at FL400 (max FL450) at speeds of .75mach; carrying out radar vectored ILS's one day and the next an NDB approach; flying to places like Russia, Poland, Iceland, Northern Africa etc etc certainly helps to enhance your flying skills. I get paid a reasonable income (much better than an instructor) and get to visit a lot of different countries, occassionally chill by the pool and keep having to pinch myself as I am, again, being paid for this!!

Or on the otherhand, you could be flying 152's around the local airfield...up, down, BANG, up, down, BANG!!! (bad students being taught to fly circuits!!).

I know there is more to being an instructor - however, there is a large element of risk and luck in this industry and sometimes going down the instructors route can be seen as the easier option, the less risky one. It, in my view, would also be the more expensive option as you will no doubt have to pay for a type rating at a later date and you would have already paid for an instructors course (not forgetting the shortfall in pay compared to a commercial airline/corporate pilot).

If you honestly believe in your abilities and believe that you'll get there, then you have to invest in yourself as you may regret it later. Broaden your search when looking for a job and look up all the corporate jet companies (not just the airlines). So many people don't and they really don't know what there missing out on. Network, network, network. Go and visit your local airfields. Talk to people. You'll never know whats around the corner!!

Good luck and really think it through before spending that hard earned cash!!

Its all worth it in the end.

Best of luck.
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Old 9th Nov 2007, 23:42
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Massive gamble to pay for a rating up front without a job offer, I can put you in touch with a few that it's gone horribly wrong for, and that's just a few that I know about. If you're willing to pay for a rating at least do it on the back of a job offer (welcome to x airlines, did we tell you that you have to pay for your own TR?).
You may say it's a catch 22, and yes it is, no rating = no interview, it also works the opposite way though, rating = interview & job? hardly, there are no guarantees in this life. But seriously if you can't afford for it to go wrong then don't do it.
Remember with the FIC course is that you can tell the market is fluid at the moment pure and simply because of all the FI jobs out there, it shows that the FI's are being vacuumed up, I was an FI and got vacuumed up, and I don't even have to pay for a rating.

Whatever happens it's your decision

Good luck
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Old 10th Nov 2007, 08:39
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Thanks Deano777, and chief, to very interesting and insightful views on the current debate, I am still looking at both options, but I must say I have currently put an App into RyanAir just to see what happens, it will though of course mean funding my own TR, but with a job offer.....If again no luck back to the thinking block!

Cheers and thanks for your insightful views. wheresryan2
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Old 10th Nov 2007, 12:58
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Interseting stuff looks like you are thinking about three tried and tested routes here:

1. FIC and rating, so far all the comments above ring true for the FIC, excellent course hone your skills and keep the log book ticking over. Traditionally many FIs that have wanted to move into the airline or BJ world have been welcomed with open arms. Only draw back I can see is the subsistance lifestyle whilst instructing at PPL level. Still if you are prepared to pay Ryan then you much have some backing.

2. Pay for type rating BJ, Ryanair or GCAT, CAE. The only problem I can see with BJ is your experience. I believe some companies have an hours limit on flying even CJ this is due to insurance premiums. You may need to complete a multi crew rating on CJ not single crew. Though this is possible make sure you have interested parties before completing the rating because of the low hours angle. As for Ryan and other schemes there is loads of info for and against on PPRuNe. Drawbacks for all these schemes are cold hard cash problems living as instructor for a year? Check out these costs.

3. Why not apply to Eastern, Flybe or Loganair etc. All take low hours pilots with a bond of sorts so no massive outlay and a contract. Go back to your Flight Trg provider and ask them what they can do for you. Your excellent record should hold you in good stead.

What I am trying to say is think before you leap. There are so many different ways to achive the same result.

Roller
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Old 10th Nov 2007, 13:25
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Chief, would it have taken you 5 years to get a job if you had done a FI rating? You were lucky in the end to find a job, albeit with the proviso of paying for the rating. But I think that this is an important point. It is one thing to consider investing in your career if there is a genuine job offer, it is another to make speculative decisions that cost thousands of pounds. A case in point is the guy who has started a thread on this web site trying to find somewhere to get 757 hours after forking out for a TR. Bonkers!

So I guess my point is, if your looking to expand your career through investment, all well and good and I recommend continuing your advancement(sitting around with 200hrs for two years is just a waste of time). However, choose carefully. If you are lucky enough to be offered a job like Chief and you have to pay for the rating - maybe not a bad plan. If this isn't an option for you, then the FI rating is a good idea. Earn money from aviation, gain valuable experience, improve skills but more than anything - network!!! Its not what you know its who you know! Where are you most likely to find network contacts - at airfields or the run of the mill job you take on to keep the bank at bay while you wait for the majic phone call. Its a long old road at times.
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Old 10th Nov 2007, 18:14
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Hi Deano, 8AS, Rollerboy and whereas...

Deano - I agree with what you have said and of course if you can't afford to do it - DONT DO IT!! However, the problem is with this industry is it is synonymous with money, luck, friends in the right places, balls, aptitude, belief in your own ability, knowledge and of course qualifications. For sure, its a mighty risk and I really can't believe I am saying all this now as I was so anti "paying for a type rating". I suppose I still am but unfortunately those days of walking into a job and them paying for it (without any "strings attached" have now pretty much gone). Furthermore, whether you have a job offer or not - if you haven't the aptitude for the course then either way they are not going to keep you.....!? The courses are not a walk in the park.

Although, reverting back to the initial subject - I am not advising anyone to just go out and pay for a rating without even a sniff of a job offer. I am just merely pointing out one side of the argument - the pro's behind doing it. Yes, there are many negatives and its a big gamble.

At the end of the day, there is no right decision. Its just, as I said earlier, having that element of luck on your side - but you have to make that luck happen, which is again what I said earlier - Network, Network, Network.

Once again, even with a job offer - there is no guarantee that you will pass the type rating.

8AS, it took me 5 years because for 4 of those years I chose to put all my time and effort into another industry without applying or researching getting a pilots job as the market when I qualified was so poor and I needed to earn an income and live a better quality of life. The market is so much better now. This guy who paid for a 757 rating, well, I agree - bonkers. Maybe I am!? Although, yes I did have that job offer but this still didn't mean anything. I had to pass the type rating and even then they could have decided to not take me on.........and to make me feel half bonkers I paid just under half the price of a 757 rating. Yes its a bigger aircraft but it does the same thing. I even get to fly higher in the stratosphere!!

Wherasryan, both 8AS and I are saying the same thing. Networking is of major importance. At least we agree on this!!! You are getting both points of view. Do as you feel right. There is no right or wrong decision. Do hang on in there. It is so worth it in the end.
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Old 12th Nov 2007, 11:51
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Just thought I would add in my experience, after a year and a half of part time instructing no real results. Considered doing the ATR or A320 rating, as the pay cut to full time instructing from my current contract job would have been quite severe.
However a week before doing the type rating pre course assessments, I was offered a full time instructors job paying a decent retainer.
So I took the full time instructors job, after nine months of full time instructing I found that all at the same time I was invited to three different assessment days / interviews; all three were offering training bonds. Didn't get the job from the first interview. But I turned down the third interview as I was offered a turboprop job from the second interview; even though the third interview may have resulted in a jet job. Thought it was best to accept the first offer rather than wait around.
If you look on this forum you will see several guys asking where can they buy line training for a 757 or a A320. Remember the idea of a commercial licence is to be paid to fly not pay to fly.
Remember if you can afford to do a type rating then you can probably afford to use the "surplus" funds to support living on an instructors wage for 6 to 9 months. So my advice is the instructors rating is the way forward. I would also like to point out that I spoke to a 757 sim instructor a few months back. The company he worked for had recently taken on some low houred cadidates whom had self funded the 757 rating. He said it saved the company little money because he still had to retrain them in the companies SOPs, further to this the standard of the initial training meant they still ended up repeating half of a type rating course.

Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 12th Nov 2007 at 14:06.
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Old 13th Nov 2007, 02:37
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Always Same Question

CHIEF! congratulation there is always lucky people in this world, HOWEVER the reason is almost impossible to get a job in Europe without a TR is because people like YOU MR. CHIEF

Go the FI job route, for sure, you will learn HOW to fly, where the limits of the plane are (either your student is going to take you there or you will explore little by little) You will learn how to be smooth (there are some people out there that they do not get that there is more plane behind you and sometimes they are passenger on that part of the plane) and like somebody pointed out you will learn how to "fly AND talk" which although it sounds easy it is not (it might become handy in let's say an emergency)

I personally try not to hire people that they pay for a job (TR)
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