Arab/Muslim pilot discrimination...
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remember that one of the most basic variables in an interview is "do we like this person". You can never actually say you dislike someone in a somewhat direct manner. After all on a date we'd probably make up some kind of lame excuse about having to go home early rather than 'tell it as it is to the poor girl/guy'. No different in an interview as they say you decide within the first couple of seconds whether you like/dislike the person on the other side of the table. Of course there are instances where people are way off the mark and acting in an unfair way but in this day and age (even aviation) that's quite rare. I'd say that attemtping to become a pilot or anything aviation related in the 70s would have been next to impossible. My father wandered into a flying school in the early/mid 70s and I clearly recall the response, they refused to speak to him and then someone told him "NO, NO, NO, NO" whilst aggressively waving their arms ... somethings you never forget. As for modern day aviation I'd say that in terms of the frequently used and equally worn out 'race issue', it's FAR LESS of a factor than historically. Besides aviation has a far higher proportion of intellectual people than other industries where 'office managers' who can't manange and 'administrators' who can't spell spell don't even come close to the performance factors and fairness demonstrated by our aviation colleagues.
Indeed religon might be an issue for some people but that's life and not a blanket comment about race which is an ugly word regardless of which direction it's implied. Even if there are instances of racist behaviour exhibited within the aviation community then believe you me it's that company's loss and with that insular attitude they'll be doing an Alitalia sometime soon .....
Indeed religon might be an issue for some people but that's life and not a blanket comment about race which is an ugly word regardless of which direction it's implied. Even if there are instances of racist behaviour exhibited within the aviation community then believe you me it's that company's loss and with that insular attitude they'll be doing an Alitalia sometime soon .....
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: uk
Age: 35
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
Im 19, muslim and British, Im on an sponsorship type thing with a small biz jet firm!
Discrimination...well I reckon there is and isnt, we all joke at my place about everything. I dont take any of it to heart just give as much as you get. But we have a common understanding that its just a little mess around. Nothing ever gets serious.
But to answer to one of your questions..Nope i have never been subject to any discrimination...well none in the aviation world.
Oz
Im 19, muslim and British, Im on an sponsorship type thing with a small biz jet firm!
Discrimination...well I reckon there is and isnt, we all joke at my place about everything. I dont take any of it to heart just give as much as you get. But we have a common understanding that its just a little mess around. Nothing ever gets serious.
But to answer to one of your questions..Nope i have never been subject to any discrimination...well none in the aviation world.
Oz
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done to the chap who's on that 'sponsored biz jet thing' as he puts it 
Keep a positive mind and outlook otherwise you'll end up being scared of your shadows. Besides don't forget the VAST majority of decent, honest, hard working non-muslim colleagues of yours. Whilst keeping an eye out for the instances of racist behaviour (which is in itself very minuscule in amount) just remember to give a wink and a pat on the back for the rest of the good guys. Ultimately we're all in it together, there are no one man teams in this world (how many times I have said that before
).
Be cool and boogie down!
Keep a positive mind and outlook otherwise you'll end up being scared of your shadows. Besides don't forget the VAST majority of decent, honest, hard working non-muslim colleagues of yours. Whilst keeping an eye out for the instances of racist behaviour (which is in itself very minuscule in amount) just remember to give a wink and a pat on the back for the rest of the good guys. Ultimately we're all in it together, there are no one man teams in this world (how many times I have said that before
).Be cool and boogie down!
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mini Fan: apply for the visa through the Paris embassy instead.
Shaun: calm down - he doesn't care, but you seem to care too much...you have clearly forgotten that British Asians are British. The British Empire encompassed a huge amount of the globe, and all the subjects were British, while many still are...
I think this comment is utterly ignorant (although the remaining giste of ithinkso's post is unfortunately realistic). What responsibility does anyone have to apologise for someone else who claims to come from the same religion as themselves?
Are we supposed to go overseas and apologise daily for the evils commited in our name under the Empire? Are we supposed to take responsibility for David Copeland's London bombing campaign in 1999? Are all the Irish supposed to apologise for the IRA's campaigns?
Clearly this is ridiculous, and the very fact that extremists have hijacked the Muslim faith, and the good name of the thousands of hard-working Pakistanis and Muslims from India, Kenya, Jamaica, Somalia and the many other countries from which the bombers' families came, is no different than any other extremist cause that has hijacked the good name of the Irish, Basques, and many others.
Going back to this thread, as a friend and colleague of many Muslims, none I know have been threatened, or feel discriminated.
The worrying undercurrent of low-level racist idiocy displayed by some such as Shaun Ryder is however disturbing, especially where these views are supposed to be coming from intelligent people.
It remains to be emphasised that every person should treat every other person as an individual in his or her own right. Only then will the uneducated learn.
Does Shaun ever say anything nice??
Shaun: calm down - he doesn't care, but you seem to care too much...you have clearly forgotten that British Asians are British. The British Empire encompassed a huge amount of the globe, and all the subjects were British, while many still are...
muslims in general have to take responsibility for the actions of those who commit acts of terror in the name of islam
Are we supposed to go overseas and apologise daily for the evils commited in our name under the Empire? Are we supposed to take responsibility for David Copeland's London bombing campaign in 1999? Are all the Irish supposed to apologise for the IRA's campaigns?
Clearly this is ridiculous, and the very fact that extremists have hijacked the Muslim faith, and the good name of the thousands of hard-working Pakistanis and Muslims from India, Kenya, Jamaica, Somalia and the many other countries from which the bombers' families came, is no different than any other extremist cause that has hijacked the good name of the Irish, Basques, and many others.
Going back to this thread, as a friend and colleague of many Muslims, none I know have been threatened, or feel discriminated.
The worrying undercurrent of low-level racist idiocy displayed by some such as Shaun Ryder is however disturbing, especially where these views are supposed to be coming from intelligent people.
It remains to be emphasised that every person should treat every other person as an individual in his or her own right. Only then will the uneducated learn.
Does Shaun ever say anything nice??
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: far from home
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The point is that I am telling MY experience an MY opinion, the same as others do (including Don Simon).Some of you may dislike and disagree but that is not my problem. This is a forum to express opinions.
There are a lot of nice people out there but there are people that ARE NOT nice at all. (I think I made that point very clear before).
It´s my opinion, based on my experience, and I respect your opinion but I don´t agree with it.(And I reaffirm my mind by seeing some answers.)
Example
From Mia Donna:
"We in this country however accept lots of people to come in whatever their religion or nationality. Oh and not forgetting we also provide them with a nice house and free money every week courtesy of all the hard working tax payers. Fact is we are a nation of acceptance and if we were discriminating against people due to their race then surely they would not get past immigration !!"
Answer:
For your information, I have a job, I pay taxes too, and I pay for MY house, the same as most foreings in UK do. Nobody gives me free money as you have said or a house.If you go to other countries in Europe (including mine), they will do the same for you if you need it or if you have trouble finding a job, and on top of that, they will give you the opportunity to take lessons and learn the languaje amongst other facilities.
By the way, more than 1/3 of the pilots in my country are foreing, and more than half of than proportion are Brits.
I would like to let you know, that UK is one of the countries with the higher rate of emigration to other places such as Australia, Spain or US mainly.
I give you this information because the comments you do in your post, I am not trying to be funny or annoying.
To summarize, Mia Dona, and company; foreing doesn´t mean people without money or withouth a job that come to your country to live from the goverment helps and the taxes that you pay and to steal job opportunities to home made talents later on.
Is OK for you say “other countries like to employ their people” (reason you didn´t even apply for a job there as you knew the outcome) but it is unthinkable for other people to say that they are having difficulties on getting a job in your country.
oh! that is rubish, I forgot, sorry.
Although I respect your opinion, I prefer to keep thinking "rubish" (as you have said). I have never liked double standards.
Wherever you go (including UK, even if you don´t want to agree) you will find all kind of people in everyday´s life and in HR departments doing interviews.
Sorry for the mistakes, I try my best.
Thanks for your understanding.
There are a lot of nice people out there but there are people that ARE NOT nice at all. (I think I made that point very clear before).
It´s my opinion, based on my experience, and I respect your opinion but I don´t agree with it.(And I reaffirm my mind by seeing some answers.)
Example
From Mia Donna:
"We in this country however accept lots of people to come in whatever their religion or nationality. Oh and not forgetting we also provide them with a nice house and free money every week courtesy of all the hard working tax payers. Fact is we are a nation of acceptance and if we were discriminating against people due to their race then surely they would not get past immigration !!"
Answer:
For your information, I have a job, I pay taxes too, and I pay for MY house, the same as most foreings in UK do. Nobody gives me free money as you have said or a house.If you go to other countries in Europe (including mine), they will do the same for you if you need it or if you have trouble finding a job, and on top of that, they will give you the opportunity to take lessons and learn the languaje amongst other facilities.
By the way, more than 1/3 of the pilots in my country are foreing, and more than half of than proportion are Brits.
I would like to let you know, that UK is one of the countries with the higher rate of emigration to other places such as Australia, Spain or US mainly.
I give you this information because the comments you do in your post, I am not trying to be funny or annoying.
To summarize, Mia Dona, and company; foreing doesn´t mean people without money or withouth a job that come to your country to live from the goverment helps and the taxes that you pay and to steal job opportunities to home made talents later on.
Is OK for you say “other countries like to employ their people” (reason you didn´t even apply for a job there as you knew the outcome) but it is unthinkable for other people to say that they are having difficulties on getting a job in your country.
oh! that is rubish, I forgot, sorry.
Although I respect your opinion, I prefer to keep thinking "rubish" (as you have said). I have never liked double standards.
Wherever you go (including UK, even if you don´t want to agree) you will find all kind of people in everyday´s life and in HR departments doing interviews.
Sorry for the mistakes, I try my best.
Thanks for your understanding.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll try and keep this vague as I don't want to be identified too easily, but I work for a US carrier. I can't say I was discriminated against when being hired (but then again this airline is soooooo desperate as people are leaving here in the drones). They'd hire anyone with a pulse right now - no joke.
That said, we do have a system in place for flight crew to jumpseat on other US carriers. It's called CASS - Cockpit Access Securtity System (or something to that effect). I'd say I've felt the not-obvious dicrimination about 80% of the time I jumpseat. I've seen people check my credentials so closely, where I've seen other colleagues in the aviation system not even have their credentials even questioned.
Also as I go though security over here at the airports, I've been walking though as a part of my crew and they walk though and flash their badge, and yet me they stop and read every word on the front and back of my ID. It makes me feel embarressed - but what can I do? Not much unfortunately. It's the signs of the times and sometimes (not all the time) but at least once a day when on duty, I do feel like a black man in the deep south of the USA back when the black guy was made to sit in the back of the bus.
That all said, I have only ever had one experience in the cockpit with a United Airlines mainline crew, that had anyone have heard the CVR, then I know that would be grounds for dismissal (but then coming from me - I'd be the one that'd end up on the wrong end of the stick). The language they used and the intimidation tactics used (against me) was unreal. It disgusted me that the Captain of this Airbus may have been someone I aspire to be one day. To be honest with you that day I cried inside in the jumpseat on the way home in that cockpit.
Over here in the US special trained crew can carry guns for safety. Again, signs of the times, and whatever it takes to make the ship secure. But this individual was indirectly telling me to my face using VERY colourful language how he wasn't afraid to use it against me if I tried anything. I felt sad. Very.
That said, I still have met many very professional american captains (albeit very few in this day and age) that I can truly say are the examples of the kind of pilot/personality I want to be (I gentleman of a US Aiways Captain comes to mind). Again, good and bad is everywhere, be it in white, black, yellow or orange, muslim or jew or christian.
That said, we do have a system in place for flight crew to jumpseat on other US carriers. It's called CASS - Cockpit Access Securtity System (or something to that effect). I'd say I've felt the not-obvious dicrimination about 80% of the time I jumpseat. I've seen people check my credentials so closely, where I've seen other colleagues in the aviation system not even have their credentials even questioned.
Also as I go though security over here at the airports, I've been walking though as a part of my crew and they walk though and flash their badge, and yet me they stop and read every word on the front and back of my ID. It makes me feel embarressed - but what can I do? Not much unfortunately. It's the signs of the times and sometimes (not all the time) but at least once a day when on duty, I do feel like a black man in the deep south of the USA back when the black guy was made to sit in the back of the bus.
That all said, I have only ever had one experience in the cockpit with a United Airlines mainline crew, that had anyone have heard the CVR, then I know that would be grounds for dismissal (but then coming from me - I'd be the one that'd end up on the wrong end of the stick). The language they used and the intimidation tactics used (against me) was unreal. It disgusted me that the Captain of this Airbus may have been someone I aspire to be one day. To be honest with you that day I cried inside in the jumpseat on the way home in that cockpit.
Over here in the US special trained crew can carry guns for safety. Again, signs of the times, and whatever it takes to make the ship secure. But this individual was indirectly telling me to my face using VERY colourful language how he wasn't afraid to use it against me if I tried anything. I felt sad. Very.
That said, I still have met many very professional american captains (albeit very few in this day and age) that I can truly say are the examples of the kind of pilot/personality I want to be (I gentleman of a US Aiways Captain comes to mind). Again, good and bad is everywhere, be it in white, black, yellow or orange, muslim or jew or christian.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this comment is utterly ignorant (although the remaining giste of ithinkso's post is unfortunately realistic).
I guess the essence of the message was that when the Islamic faith is attacked in some way, such as the now infamous danish cartoons, there is absolute outcry and mass protest. The same cannot be said for when the Islamic faith causes a suicide bomber (however mislead) to blow up a bus full of people.
I believe, as I suspect most other rational people do, that a tiny minority of very misguided individuals use the Islamic faith to justify their terrorist actions. Surely though, those who practice Islam must accept that this is happening and do more to prevent it in the future. Actively demonstrating and spreading the word that nearly all followers of Islam despise these actions would likely lead to a change in public opinion, whilst also dissuading those who might otherwise one day become terrorists themselves. At the moment while Islamic leaders have naturally denounced violence in the name of Islam, it seems to be a sheltered message, not reaching the important audience - the future bomber themselves.
V2
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
anyone who thinks they are not getting jobs in this country due to anything else but their ability or LACK of it as some of the posts here suggest (DON SiMON) are very mistaken.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: hampshire
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have had to fly with quite a few Muslims who a) insisted on leaving their seat to pray on the flightdeck floor in flight and b) embarked on longhaul flights early in the morning during Ramadan and had not a drop to drink or a bite for maybe 12 hours or more. Neither of these can be safe.
Any such pilot in any outfit of mine would soon be on his bike.
Any such pilot in any outfit of mine would soon be on his bike.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have had to fly with quite a few Muslims who a) insisted on leaving their seat to pray on the flightdeck floor in flight and b) embarked on longhaul flights early in the morning during Ramadan and had not a drop to drink or a bite for maybe 12 hours or more. Neither of these can be safe.
Any such pilot in any outfit of mine would soon be on his bike.
Any such pilot in any outfit of mine would soon be on his bike.
Maybe you should have a glass of wine or two to celebrate xmas whilst acting as a pilot.
Sorry i'm just discusted at the above, unbelievable
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have had to fly with quite a few Muslims who a) insisted on leaving their seat to pray on the flightdeck floor in flight and b) embarked on longhaul flights early in the morning during Ramadan and had not a drop to drink or a bite for maybe 12 hours or more. Neither of these can be safe.
Any such pilot in any outfit of mine would soon be on his bike.
Any such pilot in any outfit of mine would soon be on his bike.
As for fasting, professional pilots will have considered their state in Ramadan and eaten sufficiently prior to flying. Many Muslims further consider flying duties an exemption from the requirement to fast, but those who don't have been fasting for years and probably know exactly when to eat before and after to ensure full alertness.
Did you perhaps consider perhaps of the Captain on the Atkins diet (arrested due to the smell on the breath mistaken for alcohol, as widely reported here and elsewhere). Perhaps you, in your medical wisdom, consider him unfit for flying duties as well due to lower carbohydrates in the body.
I digress, however, I suggest you don't bother starting your own company in any field ever, as you will be in an employment tribunal inside a month with that attitude.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 24th Jul 2007 at 18:30.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to add, if you ever have flight safety concerns regarding inappropriate fasting for extended periods, and suspect actual reduced alertness, report it as a flight safety issue immediately.
The individual could be in a position of not realising themselves that they are less alert - you could do them a favour.
Did you do so? Or was the problem perceived rather than actual?
The individual could be in a position of not realising themselves that they are less alert - you could do them a favour.
Did you do so? Or was the problem perceived rather than actual?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi there wasdale.
Didnt kno you did longhaul on the 737??
unless you have been flying longhaul prior, dont understand why but ok.
You have 'had' to fly, so if given the option you wudnt fly with a muslim pilot? Also, 'insisted' they left their seat to fly, could you elaborate on that as i would be quite interested to know about this.
I dont understand how a pilot will have been upto 12 hours before food before embarking on a early morning long haul flight, because when you keep your fast you a good sized meal in the morning. Also i think it depends on the individual on how they are affected by fasting.
no hard feelings mate.
Sunny
Didnt kno you did longhaul on the 737??
unless you have been flying longhaul prior, dont understand why but ok.You have 'had' to fly, so if given the option you wudnt fly with a muslim pilot? Also, 'insisted' they left their seat to fly, could you elaborate on that as i would be quite interested to know about this.
I dont understand how a pilot will have been upto 12 hours before food before embarking on a early morning long haul flight, because when you keep your fast you a good sized meal in the morning. Also i think it depends on the individual on how they are affected by fasting.
no hard feelings mate.
Sunny
Last edited by aftab; 24th Jul 2007 at 18:00.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North of Earth
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not 100%
Hey There,
I'm Moslem and I have no problem to go to USA ever since.
I took my Boeing 737 type rating over FlightSafety Boeing in Long Beach CA just after 9/11...I went to US Embassy in Jakarta Indonesia, just one week after 9/11 and they passed my visa to go to USA
Best Regards,
Flightsafety737
I'm Moslem and I have no problem to go to USA ever since.
I took my Boeing 737 type rating over FlightSafety Boeing in Long Beach CA just after 9/11...I went to US Embassy in Jakarta Indonesia, just one week after 9/11 and they passed my visa to go to USA
Best Regards,
Flightsafety737
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TIC12345 :
I have read your posts (most of which was incredibly difficult due to your poor english) and think you are talking rubbish ! I grew up in a european country , speak the language to perfection but would not even apply for a job as i already know the outcome !!! most countries including yours i suspect only like to employ 'their own ' .
We in this country however accept lots of people to come in whatever their religion or nationality. Oh and not forgetting we also provide them with a nice house and free money every week courtesy of all the hard working tax payers. Fact is we are a nation of acceptance and if we were discriminating against people due to their race then surely they would not get past immigration !!
I have many muslim friends who are fantastic people , everybody has the right to believe in what they want ! anyone who thinks they are not getting jobs in this country due to anything else but their ability or LACK of it as some of the posts here suggest (DON SiMON) are very mistaken.
Very Well Said!
And this is from someone who grew up in a Muslim country and is presently flying for an airline in the US!
I have read your posts (most of which was incredibly difficult due to your poor english) and think you are talking rubbish ! I grew up in a european country , speak the language to perfection but would not even apply for a job as i already know the outcome !!! most countries including yours i suspect only like to employ 'their own ' .
We in this country however accept lots of people to come in whatever their religion or nationality. Oh and not forgetting we also provide them with a nice house and free money every week courtesy of all the hard working tax payers. Fact is we are a nation of acceptance and if we were discriminating against people due to their race then surely they would not get past immigration !!
I have many muslim friends who are fantastic people , everybody has the right to believe in what they want ! anyone who thinks they are not getting jobs in this country due to anything else but their ability or LACK of it as some of the posts here suggest (DON SiMON) are very mistaken.
Very Well Said!
And this is from someone who grew up in a Muslim country and is presently flying for an airline in the US!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Leading Gulfstream Test Pilot
is of this ilk.
I learned a lot from him, and would never wish him to be discrimated against.
I am currently working in the ME, and hope that I am not discriminated against as I am not Muslim.
glf
I learned a lot from him, and would never wish him to be discrimated against.
I am currently working in the ME, and hope that I am not discriminated against as I am not Muslim.
glf
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 55
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Muslim Pilots
Why everybody wants to go to the West? it is anyhow crazy word there.
Go to India for example. The airlines there hire pilots from all kind of religions.
Go to India for example. The airlines there hire pilots from all kind of religions.
