So where are all the jobs then?

[badboy raggamuffin]

From what I can make out wot you need to do is find ways of making your CV stand out a bit from the pile of them on a chief pilots desk.

I got my MCC about a month ago, with first time passes all round and around 250 hrs total time. I quickly realised that there are many in the same position with the same credentials and that my CV had absolutely nothing on it to distinguish it from anyone elses.
So I am trying to make small steps to distinguish it a bit. Ive been doing a bit of flying with a local aerial photographer, extra hours and "experience of flying commercially." Not a big deal, but makes a bit of a difference I think.
Applied the other day for the GAPAN jet orientation course scholarship which in the event that im lucky enough to get it will add a little bit more to my viability.
Also am on the verge of signing up for an instructors course, will add hours, improve my flying and shows a commitment to aviation. Could be good fun as well. Just a shame the pay is so ****.
I reckon that once these little things add up, eventually my CV will end up in a different pile to all the 250 hrs guys straight from flying school and I might be in with a chance of getting something im looking for. Its gonna be a pain in the arse having no money while it happens, i reckon im gonna need to get about 500 or so extra hours to move my self up a grade in the eyes of the recruiters, which will take a good year or so, but what else can I do?
I do sympathise with Vito Corleone however to a degree. I too was not prepared for the brick wall of unemployment that hit me after I finished training and I do feel a bit angry and frustrated at the situation I am in (its only been a month as well!). It is not asking much to be in with a chance of earning a decent wage from something youve worked so had at for the past year and a half is it? Sadly I can't see that happening for at least a year, life is very much gonna have to go on hold for a while. Part of the reason I feel a bit pissed off is that all through my training I was constantly being told that there were "loads of jobs out there" due to a boom in aviation and that it wouldn't take me long to get a job. Even my IR examiner said that he thought "the queue of people looking for jobs is not very long at the moment". Looks like I got the wrong end of the stick.

If I persist I WILL achieve my aims eventually, of that Im sure.

Oh yeh, to all the people who say that just sending out CVs will never get you a job, what else is there to do? Stalk a chief pilot and befriend him in a pub? Get a job as a cleaner in the Chief Pilots office? Blackmail him in some way? For those of us without a father or friend who works at an airline, sending out CVs and perhaps the odd phone call is our only means of making contact, I am intrigued to hear other ways of going about it.

[VFE]

I think if you dig deep enough you'll find that this all-hallowed pilot/instructor shortage thing is often propaganda from the flight training organistations who are now well and truly versed in the art of hoodwinking starry eyed wannabes.

It is just a shame that the vast majority of people who obtain a CPL/IR only find this out through experiencing the 'system'.

I am happy instructing (never thought it would be the role for me!) and to be honest would happily do it for the foreseeable if the work and pay was more secure. As I see it, the only thing going for the airline gig these days is the dosh and depending on your employer that is now an area of contention too. Do you really consider yourself 'employed' as an airline pilot when you pay for your TR, uniform and food? Personally, I'd feel a sense of personal disappointment if I found myself down that route. Seems to me that it's more a case of buying yer way into a dream, something which (through experience) I am no longer willing to do. However, each to their own of course.....

[Aviation Jobs]

Vito

Hi Vito,

did you try with airlines in India or China?

[pilotmike]

pilot shortage

If only the shortage of pilots was as real as the magazines make it out to be in their articles.

Just the same as any industry, there is always a shortage of well qualified, experienced people. I'm sure that Tesco or Asda will tell you that there is a shortage of experienced financial directors, or purchasing directors, but that doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry is going to get a job on the till just because they've paid to learn how to stack shelves reasonably well.

Back to aviation, airlines are desperate for, in decreasing order:

- TR Examiners
- TR Instructors
- Type Rated training captains
- Type Rated captains
- non Type Rated captains with 3,000 jet hours
- Type Rated first officers with 1,000 multi crew hours
- non Type Rated first officers with 1,000 hours jet experience
- anybody with 500 multi crew hours on anything
- anybody with 1,000 instructing hours on anything
- anybody with a CPL / IR who is not whingeing
- anybody with a CPL / IR who is still breathing but whinges a lot!

Now, where do you fit in? What qualifications do you have? How can you make yourself look attractive to your future employers? What initiative have you shown to increase your hours / experience? You may think this is rather harsh, but it is a real world out there - experience and attitude is everything.

Coming here to sound off about the mere £10k return on a £6k FI investment won't impress anybody. Going and doing it for 3 years just might.

[Flaps up no lights]

Never give up!!

Well so many good points!

Where to start???

I am a 29 year old average guy, loved everything about flying from the age of 5/6. Was average at school 10 GCSE (C grades all bar one which was a B) . Decided against going to Uni, whether this was the right choice I will never know. Tried all the sponsorship schemes going but with no luck ( all but one wanted a degree). Took a job at 18 working offshore, saved enough cash very quickly to pay for my PPL passed it in 23 days start to finish June 1997 at Sibson near Peterborough. Spent a year working hard to save some cash to hour build in the states, West Air in Las Vegas, spent 3 months building 200hrs. Came back saved some more cash then did my ATPL theory in 2000 with Four Forces in London, second JAR course what an experience, Four forces goes Bankrupt and I lost £4000 which I had on account. ( Career Development loan which had to be paid directly to the training provider) lesson learnt DON'T pay up front. Big Big thanks to Stuart Smith who helped me to finish the written exams at no extra cost (he was a ground school instructor at Four Forces and subsequently set up CATS at cranfield after Four Forces folded). Went away licked my wounds and saved some more of that aviation friendly stuff called "money". BANG 911 occurs and I thought all my aviation aspirations were over! A year passed and I couldn't leave it alone so I did my Cpl at Tayside Perth, Di Heather-Hayes your a legend. Great flying in Scoland!! even in october. Tried loads of air taxi and aerial photography companies but still no joy! Away I went earnt some more cash so I could complete the IR at Bristol, ( my short list was HPG Birmingham, Bristol, Multi-flight and Raven Air, all very good). Completed in six weeks, thankyou Rowan Irvine! found a job flying Yiphee!!! Aerial photograhy based out of Exeter for the summer 2004, probably the worst summer bar this one, only gained another 130hrs, but still hours are hours. Kept applying to the air lines nothing heard back not even a no. Kept current through 2005 whilst applying for jobs built up my multi time, ever hopeful for an Air Taxi Job Still nothing. Made up a list of operators in the uk and drove to every single one- CV in hand, took me 6 days and 2000 miles From Exeter to Aberdeen. Most of them I couldn't get past the Frumpy receptionist, still at least I did manage to hand deliver some to the right HR person. 400hrs (inc 110 multi) though isn't regarded as enough!! It was time for a re-think, the feed back I did get from most operators was they would look at my CV once I had a lot more hours or a Type rating with hours on type. It fell to two choices FI or do what I promised myself I would never do - buy a type rating. I don't have rich parents who can pay for everything, I had been working extremeley hard to pay for all my own flying. So what did I do? I made a very calculated decision to buy a 737 type rating and 100hrs on type with Bond Aviation Solutions. Passed the type rating last June 2006 in Six weeks start to LST, ground school was a bit hit and miss no structure, but the sim sessions were second to none (due to the fact most instructors are ex BA captains)! Sent out my CV again but as expected Type rating with no hours is next to useless so still no job, waited over a year for line training with Bond which still has not materialised ( there is a very good thread on here about Bond Aviation Solutions and peoples bad experiences so I won't go into it). I am currently in Morocco with Eagle Jet about to start 300hrs line training, fingers crossed this will lead to a job.
Has it been worth yes! would I do it again YES, what have I learnt?
Do your research first and for most.
DON'T pay up front.
Don't wait for the job to come to you, be proactive!
Don't financially stretch your self as I have I am £30+K in debt now and growing every day ( this has been mostly thanks to the incompetence at Bond Aviation though, I was set to complete debt free)

I will re-post once I get my break hopefully soon!

P.S I was and am willing to fly sheds and piston planes and did not set out to jump straight into a jet, it's just a case that I have never caught a break in flying - the 737 is used more than any other commercial plane for the cost of the Type rateing. My dream job is flying for FRA!! I love flying

[Caracas]

Couldn´t agree more.


2000 hrs instructing over 5 years, and now flying he A320.

There is no easy way.

[dartagnan]

even if you find a job, you wont make enough to live or have a decent life.
Most guys I have met, are not really happy about their situation.
only some few who didn't pay their position and can still afford to be on strike (airfrance pilots by exemple)

1000$ for a flight instructor
2000$ for an airline pilot.
over 2500$ for a cashier in a fast food.

don't really expect more unless you join KLM, AA, Airfrance,BA
If you are new in this business, stay away from aviation and enjoy life by making a normal job.

this industry has changed a lot these last 10 years.

[VFE]

But you dear Ronchonner, you, have not. Strangely comforting amongst the turmoil actually.

[nike]

Things have changed alright.

There is MORE opportunity now than 10 years ago.

And thats the bit that bites, listening to the carry on here.

[fatobs]

I must say some people’s attitude on this thread beggar’s belief. The airlines do not owe you anything

I am in the same position as most of you, I finished all my licences in May and have been sending out CV’s to all in sundry, with no joy, however unlike most “wannabes” I have substantial aviation experience. In 16 years in the Navy I flew nearly 4000 hrs in Seaking helicopters over 2000 of which were as Aircraft Captain and the last 5 years were spent flying Search And Rescue aircraft.

I do not expect to be treated any differently because of this, in fact I believe I am at a slight disadvantage due to my age, so rather than winging here is what I have done:

- Got an FI rating, it doesn’t pay much but where else are you going to get the experience.
- Applied to many GA type flying (fisheries protection, Photo recce work)
- Looked abroad
- Applied to all the TP operators
- Been realistic – I am not going to walk into a job with BA / Virgin no matter how much I wish it, maybe in 10 years but not yet.

Above all STOP WINGING, be proactive, get some B***s and grow up, there are far worse places to be.

Now as I have a wife and 2 children I am off to work “ would you like to go large???”

[Parson]

Fatobs,

The gist of your post hits the mark, but you must remember that everyone has different personal circumstances. I suspect you have the advantage of an MOD pension which will no doubt compensate for your FI salary and makes it easier to build experience. There are alot of young guys on the forum who have no career to fall back on, huge debts and no income. Am sure many of them would jump at an FI course if the numbers stack up. Sometimes they need some encouragement!

But it is 'dog eat dog' and people should enter training with their eyes wide open.

[Vito Corleone]

The situation gets bleaker

My travel have just announced that 100 pilots will soon be laid off. 100 typerated, experienced captains and first officers. That puts us lot 100 places further back in the long queue for a job then.
Terrorist maniacs seem intent on causing some kind of atrocity at uk airport or aircraft, it is only a matter of time before some kind of disaster happens and the industry is hit in the bollocks in a similar way to 9-11.

In short, things do not look good.

Any wannabe who is thinking of going down this road to nowhere should read "Flaps up no lights" post and then see if they still fancy it. What a mug, a bit like me. I am amazed this guy remains so positive dispite having had his life ruined by his quest to fly for a living.

A number of people have criticised my attitude on this thread, saying that with my attitude I do not deserve to get a job. Pilot Mike, you do not know me, you do not know who I am. How dare you say that I am not fit to fly for an airline.
As I said before, if I could go back two years and no get into this situation in the first place then I would. The only thing that is keeping me looking for a job is that I am not going to let the 40k I have spent go to waste. If I found a bag of 40,000 pound coins on the street tomorrow then I would be happy to live a normal life and never go near a plane again.

[L A James]

Fatobs,

I can imagine that some of the attitudes on here are a shock after your career in the RAF but remember; most of the guys in the wannabee forums are in debt, or preparing to go into debt, of around £60,000 (on top of whatever mortgage they may have) to aquire the same training that you received from HRH for free.

When they're faced with returning to previous careers and eating humble pie in order to repay their debts - saving another £5000 for an FI rating (with only a low salary to repay £600 p/m debts to look fwd to) is enough to break some people.

Vito,

"If I found a bag of 40,000 pound coins on the street tomorrow then I would be happy to live a normal life and never go near a plane again."

Based on that admission, my advice to you is to "stop the rot". If that's how you feel then it appears (I don't know you either - just making assumptions here) that your heart is no longer in the industry and maybe you should go for a higher paid regular job and begin chipping away at that debt. Once you leave career aviation you might start to feel less animosity and maybe return to pleasure flying one day.

[kuchemann carrots]

I saw this quote recently...

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination and hard work make the difference." -- Calvin Coolidge

[Luke SkyToddler]

Jeez Vito you still don't get it do you, about 50 people have told you the way out of your predicament, would it help if I came round your house and bashed you repeatedly in the face with a big sledgehammer that had "SHUT UP WITH THE WHINGING, GET POSITIVE AND GO INSTRUCTING" written on it in glowing 20 foot high letters of flame?

Why should you care about what happens at MYT anyway, as you have morbidly delighted in pointing out already right at the start of this thread, you ain't rich or well connected enough to have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a job there this decade. And who knows what the industry will look like in 5 or 10 years time, you're in it way too deep to start freaking out about that kind of thing now. So what are you proposing to do about it exactly, coming on here and bitching and moaning isn't exactly going to put any hours in your logbook is it now.

Your famous namesake in the movie rocked up in New York with nothing but the clothes he stood in, got a job as a delivery boy in an olive oil shop, pulled his finger out and made the connections at the very bottom end of his industry and it eventually took him about 50 years to work his way through the ranks of little mafia gofer-boy to hit man to Godfather. What do you think he would say to you, if you were a mafia wannabe who went crying to him because you wanted to join the mafia but only if you could get straight in as a big gang-boss-man and wouldn't accept anything less?

In fact, blimey, if I had any concrete overshoes I'd put them on you myself and take you and hang you over the edge of the brooklyn bridge just to motivate you into shutting up and getting on with it. See you don't know how lucky you are in this industry do you, capice?

(PS 100 MYT pilots, woop de doo, that represents about 20% of Easyjet's projected hiring for next year, it won't even make a dent in the shortfall at most other carriers. From where I sit, the industry has never looked so good for at least 20 years as it does right now so the rest of you reading, don't let this guy get you down too much.)

[MrHorgy]

Should also point out that 100 pilots is the very WORST CASE - it could be subsequently lower than that. And what makes you think every single one will be taken by an airline? Some will take the generous redundancy package and disappear into the sunset, some will go to the Middle East (where most wanabee's can't get jobs anyway) so I wouldn't worry too much.

Take a moment to think laterally about things, I shat myself when MyTravel announced the job losses but it's swings and roundabouts. Today job cuts, tomorrow massive aircraft order. Someone has to crew 235 new Dreamliners after all!

[High Wing Drifter]

I'm just a wannabe so take with pinch of salt but I think that we must be careful that a 'positive' attitude isn't just a synonym for head in the sand. MYT and 100 pilots, no big deal at there does appear to be a shortage of experienced pilots. However, it also seems to be slowly dawning on some people that the hiring reality this year has not met the expectations, in other words a sign that excess capacity in the industry is reducing.

On the opposite side, I guess that spring and summer are probably the worst times of the year for recruitment and I imagine things will pick up in earnest again September time.

On the adjacent side, it has also been apparent for the last 9 months that an SSTR goes a long long way to getting that first job. That is one expense too far for me really so I'm still looking up rather than down.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I've let this thread run a while now without interference as an interesting experiment. It has been an illuminating and informative thread, hasn't degenerated into a flame war and it is a credit to all who have contributed. Special thanks to LukeSkyToddler.

I am making this thread a sticky in the hope that many Wannabes will read it early in their career planning.

My two cents is this. Airline hiring and the wider flying jobs market is fantastic at the moment. My company, easyJet, hired 450 pilots in the last 12 months alone and similar numbers are in the pipeline for next year and the year after. In 1998 when I became the first PPRuNe Wannabe I doubt there were 450 new jobs in the entire UK airline industry. Today school are crying out for instructors, regional airlines are desperate to keep hold of pilots, low cost airlines need hundreds of new pilots every year and the flag carriers have all hired in the last 12 months and will do so again soon. IT DOESN'T GET MUCH BETTER THAN THIS. Which means it will sometime in the future get worse. Probably a lot worse. So dry your eyes Princess - you've never had it so good.

[Malc]

"Flying instruction, 6 grand outlay to get a job that will pay u what, 10 k a year?"...
Possibly true, but it also gets you:

• Currency
• Contacts
• Great experience of flying in all sorts of conditions
• Great experience of working with the public
• Hours in the logbook
• Potentially some great friends
• Some great fun flying
• Valuable experience that some employers seem to like

Why not get all the above by doing some instructing part-time, having another job that pays the bills.
(By the way, if you're being charged 6 grand for an FI rating, you're being ripped off.)

[dirtysidedown]

its the way it is, has been and always will be.

imagine, australia, 1989-1990, thousands of experienced, qualified and motivated pilots driving taxis. try and get a job with that talent pool walking the streets.

give up whenever you like, but the guys who did are still driving taxis.

you gotta be in it to win it.