So where are all the jobs then?

[TurboJ]

Luke Skytoddler - what a fantastic post - you took the words out of my month and wrote it far better than I ever could have.

I have flown (and still do) the single piston as an FI, and am now on the 31seater tp, having a great time. To get here, I have had to work my butt off and not just sticking stamps on envelopes !!

I know people straight out of flying school who have recently turned down jobs on turboprops because it was only a turboprop and not a jet. Now they are on jets they are still not happy because they have to drive an hour each way to the airport. You see, these people not only think they are owed a living, but they want it all on a plate - all part of the 'I want it now' brigade.

VC - My advise - get an FI rating - get some hours and experience; fly the aircraft yourself, make your own mistakes - get networking - all my airline jobs so far have been because I know somebody.

Good luck, stick at it.....

[bermudatriangle]

well said luke.....i endorse the flight instructor route,start hour building and keep banging out the cvs.....a turboprob position will become available when you accrue a few hundred hours of instructor time...oh and complaining of spending 40 grand on your flight training,i feel you got off very lightly,so the 3 grand for your instructors rating will be well invested...good luck and don't get disheartened,it's a career of ups and downs,literally !

[dizzy izzy]

VC! What an eye opener!

I 'm coming towards the end of my PPL and about to embark on the intergrated CPL.

From what you're saying - job wise- it sounds, well, bleak! I'm packing in my job as a solicitor to train as a pilot and I know it's a BIG gamble but certainly one I'm willing to take. It's absolutely crazy what we are willing to put ourselves through to get into this profession and I sometimes think I must be losing the plot!

VC, It's so disheartening, but all I can say is stick with it! If your determined enough, you WILL get a job.

Good luck

[TurboJ]

Dizzy - It isn't bleak at all - there are jobs out there. The problem in my view is that there is a bread of integrated student who believes that they can leave flight school and walk straight into the RHS of a narrowbody jet aircraft; nothing more, nothing less; and only a Boeing or Airbus will do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this way, but what winds me up is the fact that there is the belief that anything less is inferior.

In fact in my short time in the industry I have overheard conversations between integrated students complaining that they don't want to fly for Airline x because they fly to places that are are relatively unheard of, even though they fly Airbus'. Others who get offered jobs on a tp but turn them down because its 'only a tp and they only fly a few routes.'

Practically speaking this is the route many integrated and also modular students now take. However, it is not the only route. There, is instructing, banner flying, para dropping, air taxi, air charter, biz jets, just to name a few. Once hours and experience have been built you can climb the ladder and progress to the narrowbody and beyond.

Just because one person hasn't gone the direct entry jet route doesn't mean the situation is bleak. It means that they may have to find another route to fulfil your ambition.

The key to job hunting is also to network. Somebody somewhere knows somebody who can help you. A CV put on the right desk from the inside is better than the CV landing on the same desk through the post !

[Charley]

The problem in my view is that there is a bread of integrated student who believes that they can leave flight school and walk straight into the RHS of a narrowbody jet aircraft; nothing more, nothing less; and only a Boeing or Airbus will do.

Sadly that's a view not exclusively held by integrated students, in my experience.

I can only echo the sentiments of LST and YYZ. In fact I can say that, between YYZ and myself, we have covered a range of different jobs before the first of us got our 'big' break; instructing, ferrying aircraft for maintenance, dropping parachutists, aerial survey, etc.

Some newly-minted CPL/IRs appear to turn their nose up at such things, either because they don't see it as adequate reward (and it isn't always financially rewarded) for their investment or because they just feel that they'd somehow be 'slumming it' by stooping so low.

Commercial flight training tests ones intellect and skill. I'd say that the period immediately afterwards will be the test of ones character.

[The Streets]

Hmm, I know BAC Express who normally take low hour guys in to work in Ops for a period and then 'help' them out with a type rating have a few vacancies, sent me a PM if you want a contact.

There is a lot worse jobs out there and the salary (I think) is reasonable.


Mike S.

[bri1980]

Perhaps the integrated belief that only a jet will do stems from the fact that only a jet salary will do to pay off a loan for an integrated course?!?

Personally, once I have a licence anything will do: hours are housr and an unfrozen ATPL is far more valuable than a frozen one at 300 hours!

[Superpilot]

The problem in my view is that there is a bread of integrated student who believes that they can leave flight school and walk straight into the RHS of a narrowbody jet aircraft; nothing more, nothing less; and only a Boeing or Airbus will do.

and

Sadly that's a view not exclusively held by integrated students, in my experience.

It's not just integrated but all types of wannabe and why do you suppose this is why? It's not only about obsession with twin jets but is borne out of the fact that ferry flying, paracute dropping and instructing are all extremely low paid jobs that cannot even pay off flying training debts let alone bring food on the table.

[TurboJ]

Perhaps the integrated belief that only a jet will do stems from the fact that only a jet salary will do to pay off a loan for an integrated course?!?

True - there are other issues at work here, that is correct. However, I believe that there is more to it than that. I would fly dead chickens to the south pole to gain hours and experience. However, the students I have come into contact with somehow believe that that is by far more inferior and beneath them, than the RHS of a jet.

Charley - Agree with you entirely. Sorry about the typo - bread = breed !!!

[veetwo]

I am an integrated student who recently graduated and I can honestly say that when I graduated I would have taken any job that was offered to me with no complaints whatsoever. This was an opinion shared by most of my collegues who were more concerned about getting the money moving in the right direction than having to get in to the RHS of some shiny jet.

Those people who got a turboprop job were just as thrilled as those who got a jet job and, of course, there are those who don't have jobs yet. Not every integrated student walks straight in to a job. I don't know where this misconception stems from - that integrated students are so stuck up that they won't look at anything but Boeing or Airbus. Sorry, but in my experience that is utter rubbish. Some of the guys off my course and the course before are very happily settled flying the SF340, Q400 and a couple are indeed parachute dropping.

Of course, financially speaking many people choose to go to an integrated school because they believe there is a greater chance of landing an airline job straight away at the end of the course. Nothing wrong with that, it was my choice and I don't regret it nor will I be made to feel guilty about it.

[mustflywillfly]

Alright then chaps what should a wannabe with £30k a PPL and 150hours TT do? 31 years old.

Blow the cash (and take an HSBC loan) on an OAT integrated course (have passed the tests) or go down the road to BCFT at Bournemouth and do the modular all for £30k. I will be 32 when I finish training.

BTW I will happily fly anything, anywhere for any wage if it gets me on the ladder, but I am very lucky I have a girlfriend prepared to support me for a couple of years so I can work for peanuts.

What would you do?

Cheers

[TurboJ]

V2 - Its not rubbishl I have first hand experience of the attitude that has been described.

Nobody is making you feel guilty about anything, merely describing an attitude that has been observed from somebody who has openly and publicly complained about not getting a job within 6 months of graduating, which is relatively, a short space of time.

Maybe you could shed some light on where this misconception has come from then if you think it is ill founded?

[TurboJ]

Mustfly - Why do an integrated course with a PPL and 150hrs. Have you looked at an all singing all dancing modular scheme that can give you a CPL/ME-IR and MCC/JOT for a reasonable price?

To me an integrated course is gonna give you hours you already have??

[bri1980]

The 6 month limit

The 6 month 'deadline' for getting a job probably stems from the fact that many Professional Development Loans begin repayment 6 months after the course end date!

[veetwo]

TurboJ,

Perhaps I should re-phrase. The integrated students which i have come in to contact with have not sneered at any flying jobs so far as I know, nor do they think that anything is "beneath them". Most of them just have the "flying bug" and are more grateful than anything else just to get airborne, be it parachute dropping, glider towing or airline flying. Of course there is no way I can possibly speak on behalf of the entire integrated pool of pilots and I can quite happily consent to believe that there are idiots out there who think that flying a prop, for example, is beneath them. More fool them. I wouldn't limit these people purely to integrated schools though.

As I said in my previous post, I'm not sure where this perception has come from. I can make assumptions but I'd prefer not to. On a very basic level though, if you ask a newly graduated pilot whether they would rather fly a prop or a jet, most people would, I suspect, elect to fly the jet and would not be shy about admitting it. For me, that decision would be purely financial as I have a large loan to think about and the reality is that jet salaries are higher. However, I wouldn't presume to suggest I know which type of flying would give me more pleasure having not tried both.

[YYZ]

When I finished everything I set myself a personal deadline of six months, this was not for any repayment reasons but for currency and experience.

Basically, if I had no job after CV's, phone calls etc and 6 months had passed I would have to make myself look better on paper, FI Rating... The time came and on the day I started my FI course, absolutely no regrets, got a job the day I passed and have stepped forward everyday since.. Para dropping whilst doing my FI, one year of instructing, some ferry flying and finally some Recon work and = 737, FIVE years to the day (honest) from the start of my PPL!! If you don't help yourself nobody will help you..


PS... How Do Charley, Beer soon me hopes?

[no sponsor]

There's no doubt that it's tough to get a job, and each month another load of guys graduate with their ATPL-F to join the masses.

In my own experience it was bloody depressing, and I realised that sending CVs and internet applications has a very slim chance of succeeding. My break was a spot of luck, in the guise of a recommendation from my CFI at my small modular outfit. I had nothing else after 15 months of looking, but it was the only one chance I needed to get my break.

When you do get your chance, and many will not, give it everything - take nothing for granted.

My one bit of advice is to be a gentleman to everyone you meet during your training, and try and be the best student you can be.

[Charley]

It's not only about obsession with twin jets but is borne out of the fact that ferry flying, paracute dropping and instructing are all extremely low paid jobs that cannot even pay off flying training debts let alone bring food on the table.

This is a good point and I'm happy to agree. Some of the jobs people do to build hours after graduation are poorly paid and in some cases not paid at all. I've had one where all I got was beer money and my meals paid for, as well as access to some free parties. Not all of them are though, some GA jobs actually pay more than the year 1 paypoint with some regional airlines.

But beer and free parties don't pay the bills, however much the logbook keeps ticking over. I concede this much.

Nevertheless, I do have some rhetorical questions for those who have a CPL/IR and are surprised at the startling lack of job offers. This may not apply to anybody who has posted here, I'm merely thinking out loud.

Q1 - did you do your research before you started training?

If 'no', why not? Especially considering the size of the investment. On the other hand, if the research was done, then:

Q2 - did you get your assessment of the job market for 200-300hr CPL/IRs badly wrong?

If 'yes', and you did overestimate the demand for the skills of the 200-300hr CPL/IR, then ask yourself why (e.g. did you fall for the FTO marketing hype) and also ask yourself:

Q3a - what is your plan B?

That is, of course, assuming you have identified and budgeted for a plan B - if not, why no plan B? Otherwise:

Q3b - if you estimated the market correctly and anticipated the low demand for 200-300TT CPL/IR holders, then apart from me asking you why you're surprised your goose hasn't laid the golden egg, have you not budgeted to support yourself while pursuing either i) a non- or low-paid flying job, ii) an FI Rating or iii) a type rating?

If not, well.... food for thought.

Personally, I'd suggest three factors; Firstly the FTO's, for 'marketing the product' in quite the way they do when I'm sure they know that the supply of 200-300hr fATPL's exceeds the demand. Secondly the banks, for what I'd call irresponsible lending. I worked in a bank in a previous life and we had used the phrase 'borrowing beyond ones means' and we generally didn't do allow it. These days banks seem to loan potential CPL students eyewatering sums of money despite, in some cases, the loanee not having any personal wealth or equity whatsoever.

Finally, I blame some of the guys coming through the training. Perhaps not anybody here, but I have seen guys who have had overly rose-tinted specs on through training who have woefully underestimated the job market. These are the guys who have had ill-advised expectations on graduation.

Just my thoughts and opinions and clearly they're not likely to be shared by all (or even many )! Hopefully any pre-training wannabes that read this might double-check their own plans are watertight.

YYZ; yes mate, and after another spell in the hot sandy place I'll be ripe for a few jars.

[pipergirl]

I only finished my training last week and the one thing I have going is that I opted to do my FI rating. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made.
I did it for a few reasons, but mainly I love flying and the challenge of teaching someone to fly would be highly rewarding as well as getting paid to do it.
I do think there are many many jobs out there, but at the moment, being mid-July, it hasn't been as fast getting into a job as it would have been in, say, February. Recruitment can take a dive in the summer months and that is to be expected.

I certainly am not going expecting to walk straight into a job or even sit on my arse while I am trying to get in somewhere. I am going to work as an instructor keep current and work on my experience as I see all of this as an apprenticeship.

I was very taken aback by some people I encountered on my IR, who pretty much thought they were going to walk straight into jet jobs and were very picky about flying turboprops or anything other than a 737.
And then they would then start specifying which bases they would accept and all this type of stuff. Absolutely Walter Mitty stuff!

If I am called for an interview in about 8 months time, I am going to be in good shape going in with instructing experience up under my belt, and having worked from now until that point instructing than those who have been sitting at home moaning on pprune about it.

When I was doing my MCC, one of the instructors who is a senior training Captain said that we were to keep ourselves busy and not to expect a living is owed to us. And I ultimately think that is a problem with a lot of people who are out there. And I am sure that this attitude is sensed by interviewers/recruiters sometimes.

[Mikehotel152]

All sobering thoughts, so thanks to you guys for putting my feet back on the ground...

FI route always appealed in the early days, partly because it seemed like common sense, but as I approached the end of my PPL I got increasingly excited about flying commercially...

I suppose it's only natural to get carried away.