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Astraeus

Old 5th Sep 2003, 01:37
  #121 (permalink)  

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Airlines recruiting where you don't pay for a rating? Here goes:

DHL
BRITANNIA
EASTERN

There's three for you! I can't believe that the mole is going to pay for a rating, just as :

THOMAS COOK
MONARCH
AIR2000
B.A. (maybe)

are about to start recruiting!!!!
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Old 5th Sep 2003, 03:26
  #122 (permalink)  
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Tailscrape - as I've been saying all along - the bottom line ( whether you, or I, like it or not ) is that, as the market currently stands:

Already holding a type-rating on a jet puts one further up the ladder than the person without.
That having passed a 'line check', with a bonafide airline, then puts one even further up the ladder.
That having a hundred'ish hours on type puts one even further up the ladder.
Having several thousand hours puts one even further up the ladder.
Having command experience puts one even further up the ladder.

and on, and on, and on.......

Like I said previously - and please don't shoot the messenger - these are the facts of the 'game' as they stand right now.

Aside - who else remembers that not long ago the proposal on the table ( and gawd knows I sometimes wish it had come true ) was that people would only be allowed to do a type-rating if it was 'sponsored' ( read, payed for ) by an airline ?

Nb. Regulations aside, I'd bet we'd then have a situation where candidates cut a deal with the airlines such that they ( the candidate ) end-up 'underwriting' their own training costs with mucho provisos all over their employment contract to ensure that they'll get the boot if they either fail to achieve the the rating and / or the airline decides they don't like the cut of yer gib, and subsequently fail you at the line check stage .... and hence there'd be no job coz you didn't pass !

Indeed, if I recall correctly, wasn't it the UK CAA which, at that time - and for the all the reasons which concern us w.r.t the angst about self-funded type-ratings - was against self sponsored type-ratings, but that their view was subsequently out-gunned and shot-down by the other EU regulatory authorities, and the CAA have since had to toe the JAA party line ?

.... ( albeit that I might have that the wrong way around, as to which authority wanted what - but I've usually got a good memory for such trivia ).

Of course, had this proposed ruling come to pass, the reputable TRTO's ( like CTC, Bond, GECAT, et al ) would still be in business but it would be the airlines which footed the bills for type-rating pilots - along with providing a level playing field for all airlines w.r.t. type-rating training costs ..... oh, purchance to dream !

Perhaps as 'scroggs' put in a post he made at 11:46 on 15th December 2002 -
.... at the end of the day you have to deal with the world as it is rather than how you would like it to be. When you're running one of these companies, then you can decide how you operate your recruiting.
and which was was followed-up by 'foghorn' at 23:41 on 15th December 2002 -
As was put very succinctly by Hamrah at the wannabes seminar on Friday, in the current economic environment, no airline wants to type-rate a new hire if it can get away with it. It is simply too risky for them to splash out £20,000+ on someone who may struggle or even fail. That is why the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet are hoovering up the supply of already-rated pilots, whereas the bottom-feeding TurboProp companies are insisting that you buy a Shed/F27 rating before you get a look in. This will change over time with market forces as the outlook improves, however currently it is the case.

So what do you do? Sit waiting watching your skills go off the boil, pursue the instructing route to hours to find that there are few vacancies in that area anyway and the hours gained don't necessarily improve your chances with an airline, or buy a type rating which might turn out to be an almighty gamble, or might just get your foot in the door of an airline.

It's a very tough call to make.

Last edited by CrashDive; 5th Sep 2003 at 05:21.
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Old 5th Sep 2003, 03:45
  #123 (permalink)  

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crashy

I don't need you to tell me that!

I was responding to a deleted comment, and passed on some genuine info for the wannabees.

As for having line experience.......well, if you realise that having passed a line check with hours on type is valuable, why don't Astraeus put their money where their mouth is and play the game? Give them some valuable time, not just 100 hours.

Are you seriously telling me that Astraeus has more than it's fair share of pilot's at home in the summer busy season........ when their seats are filled by paying for rating pilots?

No, I didn't think so. Astraeus use this scheme this summer to employ less pilots, and hence reduce their cost base further. After all, if you can get 6 to pay, that is one FO not required by the company for the summer.

ergo: less pilots = less wages , and more people paying for a rating = more profit.

Nicely sewn up.

I am afraid that I find the scheme indefensible, but alas it will find takers for the reasons you have given no doubt.

Enjoy training them.....
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Old 5th Sep 2003, 05:15
  #124 (permalink)  
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Tails,

I've checked my log book and ( whilst this was when I was with GoFly ) in my first 100 hours of flying the B737 I did 53 sectors, operating ( on numerous occasions ) in / out of the following airports : Barcelona, Bologna, Cambridge, Copenhagen, Edinburgh, East Midlands, Faro, Lisbon, Lyon, Madrid, Milan, Munich, Prague, Stansted, Venice, and Zurich - i.e. 16 different international airports ( albeit that it could have included any on the companies network ) !

Of course with Astraeus one could expect to venture much further afield than the above, rather boring ( imho ), destinations - albeit at the time it certainly was rather exciting !

Also, aside from what you might think, it is very likely that a 'full-time' / experienced Astraeus pilot might well find themselves bounced off a trip in favour of it being assigned as training sectors ( e.g. for for a Bond trainee ) - wherein please remember that training sectors nearly always take precedence over normal 'line' flights - in almost any airline - and so in certain instances Astraeus pilots might well find themselves sitting at home in the summer season - this in conjunction with the head-count planning issue, which I mentioned in my post at the top of this page.

And w.r.t. enjoying training them, I can't comment - as I'm not employed either by the airline's training department or Bond - I'm simply trying to say it as it is and as I see it.
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Old 5th Sep 2003, 07:41
  #125 (permalink)  
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I just thought I'd add a bit about airline 'headcount planning' re: a quick lesson about how it, sort of, works.

Nb. What’s described as follows is not actually how it really works ( as that’d be very bloomin’ hard to write that down ) but it is meant to be something close to a sort of feel for it:

The players

Airline Commercial Director – amongst other things, is responsible for ensuring that as much as possible of the airlines fleet capacity is sold.

Airline Operations Director – amongst other things, is responsible for ensuring that sufficient pilots / crew are on staff to ensure that the commitments of the flying program, as sold by the commercial department, can be fully met.

TRTO Training Director – responsible for providing a quality TRTO product and meeting its commitments to its customers ( both airlines and self-funded applicants ).

Planning

Now imagine if the Commercial Director sells, say, six aircraft and a total of 4000 flights to the airlines customers, i.e. to the tour operators.

He then passes this on to the Operations Director and asks that it’s crewed - with NO gaps !

So the Ops Director goes away and works out, with the help of both the Operations Manager and the Rostering Manager, just what impact the proposed flying schedule will have on crew numbers – taking into account crew leave, days off, recurrent checks, sickness cover, standby cover, etc….

So let’s imagine that they come up with a figure of 5 crews per aircraft ( which is actually very lean in a charter airline operation ), i.e. for each aircraft there would 5 of every rank that normally forms a crew compliment.

Thus the Ops Director confirms to the Commercial Director that, with a compliment of 30 Captains, 30 F/O’s, 30 Senior Cabin Crew, etc, ( i.e. 6 aircraft x 5 people of every rank on each ) he will be able to ensure that all the flights will be covered.

Now as it happens the airline already has enough people to crew five of the aircraft – so the Ops Director therefore needs to find / recruit another aircrafts worth of crew.

But then along comes a the TRTO’s Director of Training who says, ‘Ah, but, hold on a minute, we also need to train our type-rating candidates’.

So, after doing some crystal ball gazing, they guesstimate that the TRTO might require to line-train, say, 5 people per month.

“Great!” says the Ops Director, “I’ve now got an entire aircrafts worth of F/O’s from the TRTO students and all I need to ensure is that in the left seat I have ( expensive ) Training Captains”.

It’s all a bit of a 'no brainer', right ?

Wrong !

The Commercial flying program is contracted months in advance – and in some instances over year out from the flight date - and you can't let the charters down, it'd be akin to commercial suicide !

However a TRTO can’t possibly guarantee to an airline that they can supply sufficient people, from a proposed ‘line-training’ package, to ensure that the commitments ( i.e. to the charters ) by the airline can be fully met.

E.g. it would be unreasonable, in spite of the assured best endeavours from all involved within the TRTO, to expect that type-rating training always goes to plan – just indeed as many who’ve taken their fATPL exams, GFT’s, and IR’s can attest – and just indeed as their might be less people either taking and / or completing the type-rating than was planned for.

As such, should the airline actually go ahead and reduce the number of permanent ( experienced, type-rated ) crews, in preference for an as yet unproven supply from a TRTO, it stands at considerable risk of not being able to crew all of its contracted flights; just as it similarly it stands at considerable risk if it takes on less ( or more ) permanent crews than it actually needs ( albeit that this is less of a variable - given that the airline has control over the recruiting, e.g. of type-rated candidates, or not )

Accordingly there is NO WAY that either a Commercial or Operations Directors would allow such a scenario to occur – as doing so would put the airline at considerable financial risk, e.g. un-crewed flights would require sub-charters, and you just don’t want to go there !

Nb. Some of you still, as yet, outside of the industry might not be aware that it can take 4 to 6 weeks ( or even longer, courtesy of the newly introduced airport security rules for the issue of airside passes ) from the initial start of employment with an airline until the time when one first steps foot within an actual flightdeck.
As such quick fixes are just not possible. I.e. get your headcount planning wrong in early May and you’ll likely still be feeling it in late June, and the whole thing usually gets worse from knock-on effects as a summer progresses.

Hope this helps.
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Old 5th Sep 2003, 10:55
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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That £25k would buy you an instructor's rating, a lot of twin time, a lot of sim time and the rent on a nice apartment in Spain for a long time.

So the big boys want you to buy their type rating... they won't be singing that tune in a year or two's time, as WWW predicts.

Think a little bit outside the box (gotta love that phrase).

Every time you listen to the traffic news, someone is flying that Seneca. Who ? Why aren't you on the list to fly it ? Haven't you found out who operates those flights, who needs those pilots ?

Who flies those corporate twins and jets.... maybe they're short of an F/O or two. Maybe you could phone up the CAA, get their (free) list of every G-registered aircraft in the UK and start writing letters. Maybe your first job will be your first command with MultiMegaNational PLC. as their corporate pilot.

Who's flying that night-mail in a Duchess or that special delivery in a C-310 ? Which photographic companies need real CPL holders to fly their 182s now the CAA is coming down real hard on the non-CPL revenue flights ?

Which companies are hired by archaeological companies to do those surveys, the map makers, the road builders........

Which Welsh electronics company have a Commander on their books.......

Why aren't your 300/400/500/whatever hours CVs on these peoples tables ?

You may well have your eye on the RHS of a jet, but don't forget that GA is alive and kicking in this country, and will serve you well when the upturn in recruitment comes.

"Ya, I'm Justin... just done Oxford, where's my job ?"

"Hi, I'm FlyPuppy - 500 hours C-310 single pilot night freight, 250 hours multi-crew on Lears...."
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Old 5th Sep 2003, 16:28
  #127 (permalink)  
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Very interesting post.

It seems to me that there is a tangible "north/south" divide between them and us. Those who can afford it approve, and those who can't disapprove.

I've been in the aerospace business for more years than I care to admit, and I know that the industry is cyclical (frequency c.5 years), and I know that things will improve.

But, I also know that practices that are introduced during the lean years are very unlikely to be changed as things improve. They were originally introduced to save the company money (and will still do so in the good years).

I am in the same situation as flypuppy and share his fears that paying for a type rating will become the norm. What, even with an ATR rating available at nearly £16k I couldn't even afford it without selling the wife......

What I would like answered is why is a TR so much cheaper in the States?

El Desperado, you need 700 hours for Single Pilot IFR in the world of JAR, so that's another light at the end of the tunnel switched off.
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Old 5th Sep 2003, 16:36
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Good advice, particularly as that Welsh electronics firm are digging a longer runway to upgrade that Commander to a jet...

Last night I heard about not one but four jobs coming up in the next month or so for £20,000 a year co-pilot jobs on expensive Cessnas. The overall market *is* improving and GA has been doing quite nicely now for quite some time.

The airlines get all the press but as Desperado suggest, there is more to aviation than that.

WWW


(Flypuppy - I know you know all this etc)
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Old 6th Sep 2003, 04:45
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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As my name is being thrown around on the recent posts, I felt I should comment on a couple of items:-



Tailscrape
Are you seriously telling me that Astraeus has more than it's fair share of pilot's at home in the summer busy season........ when their seats are filled by paying for rating pilots?
This summer we employed ( as in paid the salaries to) the correct number of pilots we needed to fly the commercial program. Where I had vacancies, and suitable candidates completed their type ratings under the Bond TRTO, I offered them paid employment, including their line training. The offer was seasonal, and was NOT implied when they signed for their type rating under the TRTO. The temporary nature of the employment was due to the seasonal nature of the charter business. We make money in the Summer and lose it in the winter. The secret is to make more money in the summer than you lose in the winter, this way you become a successful business, which means you contiunue to keep people employed on a long term basis.

Of the pilots who joined us on this basis, I wish to retain the services of most of them as we move forward as they are very good , albeit with low overall experience. So I will be looking to offer them something more permanent for the start of next summer.

For this winter ( as I mentioned earlier) I will crew up to the full requirement for the commercial program. I cannot do otherwise., because, as Crashdive suggests, I have no way of knowing how many people want to undertake the enhanced Bond Course, nor when they might be available for line training. And I must ensure along the way that our primary customers ( the 60 or so tour operators we work for) have pilots to fly their customers (our passengers).

For my budget for next year, I have plannned to type rate up to 6 crews. The reason for this is that, in general, the candidates coming through the TRTO are low overall experience. I need to identify candidates with some experience ( say 2000+ hours and multi-crew airline experience) who might be suitable for Command in, say 2005/6. There is a critical need to become self-sustaining in terms of Captain vacancies as quickly as possible.

I am also considering running another PPRuNe Cadet scheme as the first one proved so successful.

I will also, where I can , offer paid employment to TRTO customers who have demonstrated a high standard during their course. But , again, no such guarantee is implied when they sign up.

I will continue to support and advise, where I can, the Wannabe community, so I will repeat what I have been saying for the past three or four years. You make your own luck in this industry. As El Desperado explained quite elegantly, there are vacancies popping up all over the industry. It is better to be inside the industry aspiring to move up the ladder, than outside trying to decide where the ladder is.

Let me just put this quote up again....



As was put very succinctly by Hamrah at the wannabes seminar on Friday, in the current economic environment, no airline wants to type-rate a new hire if it can get away with it. It is simply too risky for them to splash out £20,000+ on someone who may struggle or even fail. That is why the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet are hoovering up the supply of already-rated pilots, whereas the bottom-feeding TurboProp companies are insisting that you buy a Shed/F27 rating before you get a look in. This will change over time with market forces as the outlook improves, however currently it is the case.
In 1998, I recruited into GO 3 pilots who had, a couple of years before hand, paid for the own 737 type rating with British Midland (Who had, at that stage, being doing the same thing for 6 or 7 years). Of the three I took on as first officers then ( admittedly they had operated for a year with Ryanair) all of them are now training Captains. All of them are under 35. For them it was a matter of being in the right place at the right time for the industry.

Bond/Astraeus offer a good course, for those who are interested. It is not the exclusive way to get a job with Astraeus, it is also not a guarantee of a job with Astraeus.

Oh, and Flypuppy, you and I have spoken often in the past about careers. The one piece of advice from me that you took was to get a job in the industry. This you have done successfully, and by virtue of that have moved a couple of steps up the old ladder. I would suggest that you are well placed to fulfill your dream , if you just keep your nose clean and wait for the change in the market place. I would think the Chief Pilot already has already completed your "interview".

H
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Old 6th Sep 2003, 05:44
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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This topic is going nowhere.

Most of the adverserial postings say, on the one hand, quite correctly, that paying for a type rating is unethical, and, on the other, the people who are organising these money making schemes,defend their positions.

Unless you have lots of spare savings, or are heir to an inheritance, forget it, and get yourself a nice job in the Police, or the Fire Brigade- you'll get as much excitement, job security,with a lot more money on your early retirement!

Surely a person works in a job to make enough to support a family, and be happy with life. How can anyone be able to do any of this, if they are in debt to the tune of £80,000- £100000 before they start properly in their career?
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Old 6th Sep 2003, 19:16
  #131 (permalink)  

 
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Hear hear !

It is shameless exploitation and those who self-fund it are unwittingly selling the profession further and further down the river and saddling themselves with bigger debts whilst lining the pockets of others.

AIRLINES SHOULD PAY FOR TRAINING NOT YOU. !!!

Doctors, lawyers, accountants, train drivers etc,etc did not pay to be where they are now in terms of specialised training, so why should you ?
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Old 7th Sep 2003, 04:14
  #132 (permalink)  

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Wink

Strewth Hamrah,
You're not saying you like bagpipes at 3am?
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Old 7th Sep 2003, 16:33
  #133 (permalink)  
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LOAJ, wr.t. AIRLINES SHOULD PAY FOR TRAINING

What a brilliant idea !

But let’s not stop just at self-funding of type-ratings as, surely, this precedent should be extended to cover all ( the hugely risky financial gamble ) of things which people are forced(?) to pay for in order to obtain their (f)ATPL, should it not ?!

Indeed one really can't understand why wannabe airline pilots are so prepared to beggar themselves, to obtain the professional license(s) - can’t they see that it undermines the morality whole industry ?

Accordingly we should all lobby the authorities to have the rules changed such that the only people eligible for airline pilot employment are those whom have been fully sponsored by airlines for the whole of their training, i.e. from first lesson right thru to (f)ATPL.

This way we’d have a level playing field for all, and it would also provide more opportunities to disadvantaged people who otherwise would have no access to the front seats of a jet airliner.

Yes, it is totally outrageous that the airlines don’t foot all of the bills, but that they ( the airlines ) ultimately benefit from a ready supply of pilots on the cheap - we really must put a stop to this charlatan practice !


Ah, but,..... there's the rub.

Just imagine ( albeit very unlikely ) if the licensing authorities ( JAA / FAA ) were indeed to bring-in an across the board ruling that forced airlines to pay for all of a professional pilots training.

Then, might I bold so bold as to suggest, that a lot of people ( indeed many here on PPRuNe – me included ) would never obtain their much coveted piloting jobs.

E.g. If, from the outset, an airline was forced to pay for the whole license process, they’d then be free to choose whom ever they want, e.g. just as BA do when they recruit their cadet pilots – and just how often have we heard the tale of some fresh out of college / Uni BA cadet apparently spouting “Oh I only applied to the cadet scheme as it sounded like a bit of a laugh, I’d never really thought about working for an airline, and now I’m a pilot a on a B777” to say nothing of stereo typical “Oh yes, father’s one of the senior training chaps on the 744 fleet. Now when do I start ?”, all while the earnest wannbe gets passed over – does that sound familiar Sir Donald ?

So, aside from the atrociously fierce competition for such sponsorship places - e.g. just how many people apply for BA cadet schemes as against how many get selected ?! - I’d go so far as to say that many of the people here on PPRuNe would not ( and probably never did ) meet the criteria for airline sponsorship ( Proof - just how many people pour out of self-sponsored fATPL training each year ? ) - e.g. I don’t think I ever met the criteria, always being, just, that bit too old, or some such - and / or are not quite what the airlines are looking for, i.e. it being somebody in their early 20’s, fresh out of Uni, who’s mouldable, etc....... rather than somebody in their 30’s, albeit well qualified from school of hard nocks and university of life.

So, shall we put this proposal to the vote, i.e. that, in order to end this charlatan exploitation by airlines of poor little wannabes, only people who are fully / completely sponsored by airlines should be allowed to gain employment as airline pilots ?

........Now don’t all rush at once !

What I'm getting at - albeit in a slightly long-winded fashion – is, w.r.t. training, where should one draw the line on who pays for what ? I.e. if self-funding of a type-rating is ‘bad’ then surely self-funding of any of the training is similarly ‘bad’ and somewhat morally unjustifiable and elitist ?

Or is it really the case that it’s dog-eat-dog, and the meek will inherit the world ( so long as that’s alright with the rest of you ) ?!

Last edited by CrashDive; 7th Sep 2003 at 17:28.
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Old 7th Sep 2003, 21:00
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Sir Donald,

Thank you!

I couldnt agree more.
Ashtrays are a bunch of crooks.


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Old 7th Sep 2003, 21:01
  #135 (permalink)  

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Hamrah,

Good. I am glad to hear you will pay for pilots. End of discussion.

Crashdive,

Semantics and supposition will not allow you to weedle your way out of a corner that most established airline pilot's find indefensible.

After all as lima or alpha junk says so succinctly, it just erodes terms and conditions ever more in the industry.

A time "may" come when you, and your tight knit group of pals in an airline similar to Astraeus are not so lucky. The whole thing could change, you all be out on your ears in days and suddenly your gang are not in charge of an airline.

What happens then? Will you be willing to pay for a job?

Apples and Pears for example, but it could just happen. Let's hope not though.
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Old 7th Sep 2003, 21:57
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I have been having a good read on this thread. I have recently completed my Type rating with Bond aviation, my base training is coming up on the 16th September, 6 weeks after I completed my LST. I too was not happy about paying for my type rating although I am not paying for the line training part of the course, I am hoping to impress enough to get a contract for the line training.

Hamrah spoke of a few Pilots on contract with Astraeus of which I know two, both are ex instructors and both recently completed the type rating course. They are both having a great time flying to destinations that are interesting and different. As far as I know they are not getting paid a proper salary but are doing it even after paying for the type rating because it just makes sense.
Astraeus seem a good company to work for, the crew are friendly and I found them very professional. And all the crew I spoke to in the crew room during the training were very happy there.

Now, I did well on the ground school and even got a recommendation from the Captain who did my LST. After sending out numerous cv's I still have not heard anything from the airlines out there. It is a big decsion to make whether to pay for a type rating or not, but out of 900 or so FATPL's I would rather move to the top of that list. And as the market is about to pick up (according to the postings) I hope this type rating will pay off.

I am fortunate enough to have some money tucked away so the money for the type rating was not too much of a hassle, but I would recommend it to anybody who has good contacts in the industry and has a bit of extra cash lying around. The only choice is "is it Airbus or Boeing?".

I found Bond Aviation very professional.

Sorry but give credit where credit is due!


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Old 8th Sep 2003, 00:27
  #137 (permalink)  
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Tailscrape - but I/we/you have, effectively, already paid for most of the training - or did I / you miss something ?

E.g. In my own instance it cost me £56,000, i.e. just to get the basic minimum qualification(s) to allow me to even apply to an airline for potential employment, i.e. the fATPL – and that’s a figure which, at today’s rates, is nearly three times more than the cost of a type-rating ( and back when I did it, that figure was more akin to four or five time as much as the cost of a type-rating ! ).

So as you can see, the airline(s) didn't pay for most of my training, I DID ! – but I’m not complaining, as that was the price of wanting to join a pretty exclusive club – one in to which I would likely have remained uninvited.

Of course I could have waited for a full sponsorship to come along, but some how I get the feeling that I would still be waiting.

So I ( we / you ) subsidise the airlines because I ( we / you ) want the job too much to wait in vain hope.

It's all very long odds, and some people prefer to shorten them as much as possible - see mad_dog's post above.

However, if you can't afford to shorten the odds then you just have to wait, and trust to good fortune, like I did ( and boy, did I have to wait a long time ! ), in the hope that the market improves and that one doesn’t become ‘to old’, or hit by the old chestnut of ‘age versus experience’, in the process.

Veritably you pays yer money, and you takes yer choice - you hope - but don't forget that there are loads, yes LOADS, of people out there who’ve paid their money, devoted years to the cause and still have no airline job ( and never will have one – hardly a Bright investment – and something which very nearly happened to me ).
The attrition rate is appalling, but one doesn’t get reminded too often of that fact ( at least not usually until it's too late and the money is spent ) - and at least what I suggested in my previous post would stop that from happening. Ah, but then that would also shut many of us out of the opportunity to get into the business, wouldn't it ?!

That said, Bond do put candidates through a pre-type-rating course assessment, to help ensure some level of protection from wasting of time and money by all concerned - maybe you should come along and see how you do ( I'll see if I can get you a special rate )
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Old 8th Sep 2003, 00:40
  #138 (permalink)  

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crashy my old darling,

Pray tell me why would I come and be assessed on a B737, when I already fly a B757, and have done so for long enough...... ?

However, if the special rate were zero......... then I may be tempted, which is the whole point of my argument!
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Old 8th Sep 2003, 07:10
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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when do you make money in this job?, with the risk to be laid off . Eachtime you change job, do you have to pay for a new type?.

do truck, train, car, taxi, tractor,... drivers pay for their type?, NO THEY DO NOT, so why should we?

in less 6 months, all airlines are going to recruit like crazy,...
SO DO NOT PAY FOR YOUR TYPE, AIRLINES WILL PAY FOR YOU!
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Old 9th Sep 2003, 00:50
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This argument seems to be going round in circles as far as I can see. The views seem to be very polarised, which is understandable. The solution is simple, to me at least.

If you can't afford, or otherwise object to paying for a 737 type rating then you don't have to apply for it: just apply for jobs that don't require you to bring that level of training with you to the job. If you have the money or otherwise approve of the Ts&Cs being offered go for it.

But for goodness sake stop wingeing all day about how hard done by if you are not willing to join the scheme. There are other ways to get into the industry.

For the record I have no wish to add another 25k commitment to my mortgage and other financial obligations, and for that reason haven't applied for an ainterview with Astraeus thus far. Having seen, however, that they may take some non-type rated guys I am now off to Hamrahs' web site to aapply for a right seat in a blue and white 737
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