The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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Hi all,
How can I work out the BBVA loan repayments? I know how much the course will cost, and it states the interest rate is currently 4.1%. It also states for the first 24 months is a holiday period then the next 24 months is a reduced rate and then the last remaining 6 years pays the full amount. How can I work out the amount required to pay back during years 2-4 and 4-10? Is it done on a percentage of the loan? I.e. Say the total loan is £120000, how can I work out these repayments? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as I have tried contacting the BBVA to ask but got a response stating there are rules which prevent them from replying to me!
Thank you.
How can I work out the BBVA loan repayments? I know how much the course will cost, and it states the interest rate is currently 4.1%. It also states for the first 24 months is a holiday period then the next 24 months is a reduced rate and then the last remaining 6 years pays the full amount. How can I work out the amount required to pay back during years 2-4 and 4-10? Is it done on a percentage of the loan? I.e. Say the total loan is £120000, how can I work out these repayments? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as I have tried contacting the BBVA to ask but got a response stating there are rules which prevent them from replying to me!
Thank you.
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BBVA have some example figures here. Not sure why they won't tell you, maybe ask again but for a specific example rather than how they work it out?
https://www.bbvauk.com/personal-bank...ing-mortgages/
It's an interesting maths problem though so here's how (I think
) you work out!
For the first two years you pay nothing and accrue interest, so at the end of year 2 the loan value is 120,000 * (1.041^2) = 130,041
From then on standard repayments can be calculated using the formula:
Monthly Amount = [Interest * Loan] / [1 - (1+Interest)^-n ]
where n is the number of years to repay
So for 8 years the monthly amount = (0.041*130,041) / (1-1.041^-8) = 19390 / year = 1616 / month
I'm not sure exactly how BBVA calculate the reduced payment value. If they apply a simple 25% discount then repayments in years 3-4 will be 1212.
You caluculate the effect on years 4-10 as follows:
Over years 3-4 you will be repay (1212*12) = 14546 / year
Loan remaining after year 3 (adding on interest) = ((130041*1.041)-14546) = 120827
And after year 4 = 111235
Therefore the repayments for this remaining amount of 6 years (4-10) are:
(0.0451*111,235) / (1-1.041^-6) = 21289 / year = 1774 / month
There are some good tutorials online on how to build this into a spreadsheet. Then you can compare different amounts and see the effect of interest rates easily.
The only problem is that this assumes that interest rates are constant. BBVA probably adjust interest rates depending on any number of factors which is why the above doesn't quite match up with their examples (it's within 50 pound per month though)
https://www.bbvauk.com/personal-bank...ing-mortgages/
It's an interesting maths problem though so here's how (I think
) you work out!For the first two years you pay nothing and accrue interest, so at the end of year 2 the loan value is 120,000 * (1.041^2) = 130,041
From then on standard repayments can be calculated using the formula:
Monthly Amount = [Interest * Loan] / [1 - (1+Interest)^-n ]
where n is the number of years to repay
So for 8 years the monthly amount = (0.041*130,041) / (1-1.041^-8) = 19390 / year = 1616 / month
I'm not sure exactly how BBVA calculate the reduced payment value. If they apply a simple 25% discount then repayments in years 3-4 will be 1212.
You caluculate the effect on years 4-10 as follows:
Over years 3-4 you will be repay (1212*12) = 14546 / year
Loan remaining after year 3 (adding on interest) = ((130041*1.041)-14546) = 120827
And after year 4 = 111235
Therefore the repayments for this remaining amount of 6 years (4-10) are:
(0.0451*111,235) / (1-1.041^-6) = 21289 / year = 1774 / month
There are some good tutorials online on how to build this into a spreadsheet. Then you can compare different amounts and see the effect of interest rates easily.
The only problem is that this assumes that interest rates are constant. BBVA probably adjust interest rates depending on any number of factors which is why the above doesn't quite match up with their examples (it's within 50 pound per month though)
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ManUtd1999 has almost got it correct, although interest is only calculated during the first 24 months on the amount you have actually taken. My training started in August but I didn't take funds until December. The 2 year payment holiday started at this point and all interest accrued is only on the sum spent and not the overall loan.
The rate is also fixed at 3% per annum atop of the base rate set of the Bank of England, currently 0.25%. Thus, if the Bank of England increases rates as too does your interest and associated monthly repayments.
As a guide, on £70,000 my repayments in year 3-4 equate to ~£580 per month and then ~£780 a month until maturity at year 12.
In my case, I've currently only spent £51,300 and am accruing interest on this amount. Next month when I take another £5,300 out of the pot I will then be accruing interest on the £56,300.
Hope that makes sense.
The rate is also fixed at 3% per annum atop of the base rate set of the Bank of England, currently 0.25%. Thus, if the Bank of England increases rates as too does your interest and associated monthly repayments.
As a guide, on £70,000 my repayments in year 3-4 equate to ~£580 per month and then ~£780 a month until maturity at year 12.
In my case, I've currently only spent £51,300 and am accruing interest on this amount. Next month when I take another £5,300 out of the pot I will then be accruing interest on the £56,300.
Hope that makes sense.
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Thank you gbotley and ManUtd1999 for your informative responses! And for you calculations in working out the interest and overall loan amount. gbotley, how did you get these amounts for your monthly repayments, did BBVA tell you that this is what your repayments will be (and when did they give you these sums) or could you work these out beforehand? How are you finding CTC? Do you know how the employment process works once you complete your training? How likely are you to be employed so you can fund this loan?
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@dannybuckley8,
BBVA will have discussions with you based on an amount you wish to borrow after you have completed and passed a CTC selection event. They're quite tight lipped otherwise and don't offer any real advice or support as to the product they're offering as it is as not really a consumer product.. it's more a 'commercial' banking product - they're in Canary Wharf after all - and is thus not covered by consumer protection and advice services.
Note that in addition to the BBVA application and legal fees which total around £2000, I then sought the professional advice of both financial advisors and property lawyers whom went through the contracts and offer from BBVA with a fine-tooth comb. It's hefty and BBVA pretty much prevent ANY alterations to a property throughout your term without them being informed as such. In total, I'd say expect anything from £3000-£4000 in fees alone depending on the property etc as some cadets even had to pay for BBVA's surveyors to attend their property and write up reports.
I originally requested the full £93,800 for Whitetail and BBVA practically ask for your entire life history and that of any guarantors in that they can make a decision on you. It turned out £70,000 was deemed the max I could be offered given the financial outlays of guarantors. I was then provided an offer in the post which outlined everything inclusive of payment amounts.
As for CTC itself, I'm quite happy here to be honest. Be under no illusion, it's a bloody hard graft. Ground School has been known to break people with the stress and I'll be the first to hold up my hands and say I even shed the odd tear here and there as it's a lot to learn in such a short space of time. With that said though, hard work reaps rewards and I've now 14 first time passes with 86% average and currently learning to fly out in New Zealand. You'll find this forum in particular is full of a heck of a lot of negative energy towards larger training organisations and whilst I suppose you do lose that 'personal touch' otherwise provided by a small flight club and spend a significant amount more, I can't fault the training itself.
In respect of employment, the way the market is at the moment so long as you pass everything to a high standard then recruitment is pretty steady. Even BA have returned to recruit cadets by tagging them as they complete Ground School. In essence, on completing training you're placed into a hold pool where a team at CTC Aviation then work to put you forward to suitable airlines for placement / interviews.
Hope that helps,
BBVA will have discussions with you based on an amount you wish to borrow after you have completed and passed a CTC selection event. They're quite tight lipped otherwise and don't offer any real advice or support as to the product they're offering as it is as not really a consumer product.. it's more a 'commercial' banking product - they're in Canary Wharf after all - and is thus not covered by consumer protection and advice services.
Note that in addition to the BBVA application and legal fees which total around £2000, I then sought the professional advice of both financial advisors and property lawyers whom went through the contracts and offer from BBVA with a fine-tooth comb. It's hefty and BBVA pretty much prevent ANY alterations to a property throughout your term without them being informed as such. In total, I'd say expect anything from £3000-£4000 in fees alone depending on the property etc as some cadets even had to pay for BBVA's surveyors to attend their property and write up reports.
I originally requested the full £93,800 for Whitetail and BBVA practically ask for your entire life history and that of any guarantors in that they can make a decision on you. It turned out £70,000 was deemed the max I could be offered given the financial outlays of guarantors. I was then provided an offer in the post which outlined everything inclusive of payment amounts.
As for CTC itself, I'm quite happy here to be honest. Be under no illusion, it's a bloody hard graft. Ground School has been known to break people with the stress and I'll be the first to hold up my hands and say I even shed the odd tear here and there as it's a lot to learn in such a short space of time. With that said though, hard work reaps rewards and I've now 14 first time passes with 86% average and currently learning to fly out in New Zealand. You'll find this forum in particular is full of a heck of a lot of negative energy towards larger training organisations and whilst I suppose you do lose that 'personal touch' otherwise provided by a small flight club and spend a significant amount more, I can't fault the training itself.
In respect of employment, the way the market is at the moment so long as you pass everything to a high standard then recruitment is pretty steady. Even BA have returned to recruit cadets by tagging them as they complete Ground School. In essence, on completing training you're placed into a hold pool where a team at CTC Aviation then work to put you forward to suitable airlines for placement / interviews.
Hope that helps,
Last edited by gbotley; 17th Apr 2017 at 13:06.
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Mine were around £2500 after VAT - inclusive of our own advisors/solicitors - which is perhaps more typical in truth. I've simply heard them be higher in more complex property situations. It's also worth adding, none of BBVA's fees were due until the loan was actually finalised and I requested money from them the first time.
Last edited by gbotley; 17th Apr 2017 at 13:48.
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gbotley, thank you very much for your informative response and also your positivity as like you said there is much negativity on these threads! That's absolute madness about the additional start up costs, is it really appox £4000 or like you suggested more like £2500? How comes BBVA would not lend you the entire loan?? How was you possibly able to find the extra 23,000?? Also how are you considering paying for your type rating fees, will they lend you that money or is £70000 you maximum?? I will certainly read your blog on this matter as this is a considerable risk which will worry me every day! I'm so pleased you are enjoying your training and the placement/employment after training sounds very positive. Thank you for your response, Danny
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I think the last few posts have been pretty informative.
I just wanted to give you my thoughts now 4 years on from training.
The loan repayment is tough. I got a job with a large Irish loco a couple of months after finishing my integrated course. Seeing the numbers on a spreadsheet is one thing, seeing them come out of your net pay is another. Mine were roughly 800 during the reduced payment period then 1200 2 years later for the remainder. (That includes £24k for type rating).
As I've said, it is tough, but it is workable. Just be under no illusions as to what you'll potentially be left with each month and do your research. Asking questions here is a good start but plan for the worst case scenario, 6 months, a year? maybe 2 years out of training without a flying job? maybe longer. Things can and do go wrong throughout training that can seriously impact your employability, including just bad luck.
Things may be reasonable in terms of job prospects at the moment, but will they be in 1, 2 or 3 years from now? No one knows.
It is a huge gamble. I spent 3 years with the loco I mentioned and now work for the U.K. Flag carrier earning a pretty decent wage. £1200 out of my net pay still has a pretty significant impact. It worked out for me, and most others I guess. Would I take the gamble again, possibly not?
Do with this info what you will. Just trying to give some perspective on what living with these loans is like. This is based on a reasonably decent salary, do you have a back up plan to make the repayments if the worst should happen?
I just wanted to give you my thoughts now 4 years on from training.
The loan repayment is tough. I got a job with a large Irish loco a couple of months after finishing my integrated course. Seeing the numbers on a spreadsheet is one thing, seeing them come out of your net pay is another. Mine were roughly 800 during the reduced payment period then 1200 2 years later for the remainder. (That includes £24k for type rating).
As I've said, it is tough, but it is workable. Just be under no illusions as to what you'll potentially be left with each month and do your research. Asking questions here is a good start but plan for the worst case scenario, 6 months, a year? maybe 2 years out of training without a flying job? maybe longer. Things can and do go wrong throughout training that can seriously impact your employability, including just bad luck.
Things may be reasonable in terms of job prospects at the moment, but will they be in 1, 2 or 3 years from now? No one knows.
It is a huge gamble. I spent 3 years with the loco I mentioned and now work for the U.K. Flag carrier earning a pretty decent wage. £1200 out of my net pay still has a pretty significant impact. It worked out for me, and most others I guess. Would I take the gamble again, possibly not?
Do with this info what you will. Just trying to give some perspective on what living with these loans is like. This is based on a reasonably decent salary, do you have a back up plan to make the repayments if the worst should happen?
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As I've said, it is tough, but it is workable. Just be under no illusions as to what you'll potentially be left with each month and do your research. Asking questions here is a good start but plan for the worst case scenario, 6 months, a year? maybe 2 years out of training without a flying job? maybe longer. Things can and do go wrong throughout training that can seriously impact your employability, including just bad luck.
Also worth mentioning that my negativity on here is not based on any perception of their training, by most accounts they produce excellent pilots.
My views stem more from their acceptance (some could even say encouragement) of airline cadet recruitment practices which show no regard for social mobility and would probably be ridiculed in any other industry. The major flight schools are by no means alone in this and it's unfair to blame them entirely, but they certainly don't help in my opinion.
Last edited by ManUtd1999; 30th Apr 2017 at 16:16.
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gbotley, thank you very much for your informative response and also your positivity as like you said there is much negativity on these threads! That's absolute madness about the additional start up costs, is it really appox £4000 or like you suggested more like £2500? How comes BBVA would not lend you the entire loan?? How was you possibly able to find the extra 23,000?? Also how are you considering paying for your type rating fees, will they lend you that money or is £70000 you maximum?? I will certainly read your blog on this matter as this is a considerable risk which will worry me every day! I'm so pleased you are enjoying your training and the placement/employment after training sounds very positive. Thank you for your response, Danny
Well BBVA's set fees are nothing more than this:
- Application Fee: £650+VAT
- BBVA Legal Fee: £950+VAT
Being 23 and having not long completed by BSc degree in I.T. (my fall back plan) there was no way I could put up the security myself as I don't own a home - let alone one with enough equity. Thus, guarantors are required and in my case they are my parents with the property being that of my grandparents. Some may laugh at how stupid that sounds in that i've put everyone at risk with this, but we didn't just jump straight in.. we spent months evaluating everything.. we visited open days.. with spoke with current cadets and past cadets to see how they're managing repayments etc before even contemplating applying.
Once we had, we needed to submit financial information etc to BBVA on the earnings and outgoings of all guarantors. BBVA aims to establish if the guarantors can meet the repayments if you as the trainee can not. In my case, with my parents still having a mortgage and committments of their own, BBVA did not wish to put them in a situation they themselves wouldn't be able to afford. In fact, BBVA wouldn't be allowed to do this by law! As such, the repayments on £70,000 were the maximum in such an eventuality. I initially thought that was game over given the course cost of £93,800, but my brother and parents kindly offered to fill the gap left after my own savings had been considered. I'm very thankful for that to this day - especially as I never asked them to do that.
JulietSierra6 offers some good insight in to the end scenario. It ultimately boils down to how you will live at the end and BBVA know this all too well given the amount of trainees they've now helped. When doing your maths, don't just factor in the repayments. Take an average starting salary for a pilot of about £30,000-£40,000, if not less after tax, and factor in living costs for rent, car, insurances, mobile phone, etc etc as living in places such as London Gatwick won't be cheap either.
Finding the extra £20-£30,000 will be something I'll think about at the time. BBVA do offer type rating finance although there have been issues in the past with those whom already have BBVA loans so i'm not sure what'll happen there. We've explored finance options or the £30,000 prior to me starting which -- again -- involved remortgaging. However, there are many airlines which now part-contribute or completely fund type-ratings and that is becoming more common place over time with Thomas Cook being the latest to join that bandwagon so... one can hope.
Again, hope that helps you!
All in all, I'll quote a previous cadet whom helped me loads in my own endeavour to join CTC, "You need to be in it, to win it. It's the risk you have to take and sure I hate the repayments, but work hard, play hard and boy is it worth it."
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hey everyone. hoping this is the right place to post this..
i sat my CTC assessment in the december just gone and passed everything but PILAPT where i only failed 2/6 tests.
id used sky test to practice for PILAPT, but just not enough.
I was wondering whether anyone can give me a definitive answer as to how the crosshairs you fly in the test are set up.. i believe they are like a normal aircraft's controls (left is left, right is right and pulling back on the joystick makes the horizontal crosshair go up, pushing away from you makes it go down). i think where i went wrong was using skytest, where it appears to be inverted for left to be right, right to be left, and pushing away makes it go up, and pulling towards makes it go down..
any help is really appreciated guys as i just wanna cover all bases!
also happy to answer any questions about the selection for those who havent been yet
i sat my CTC assessment in the december just gone and passed everything but PILAPT where i only failed 2/6 tests.
id used sky test to practice for PILAPT, but just not enough.
I was wondering whether anyone can give me a definitive answer as to how the crosshairs you fly in the test are set up.. i believe they are like a normal aircraft's controls (left is left, right is right and pulling back on the joystick makes the horizontal crosshair go up, pushing away from you makes it go down). i think where i went wrong was using skytest, where it appears to be inverted for left to be right, right to be left, and pushing away makes it go up, and pulling towards makes it go down..
any help is really appreciated guys as i just wanna cover all bases!
also happy to answer any questions about the selection for those who havent been yet
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Goodyear Incident
Bit OT but news in today from Goodyear that a CTC DA40 on a solo flight crashed soon after departure while trying to make a forced landing across irrigation lines after an engine failure. Good to see student was well, usual media hype.
But even more proof that ultimately people need as much handling skill as you can get! Get as much flying as you can before/during CTC. You never know when it might come in handy.
But even more proof that ultimately people need as much handling skill as you can get! Get as much flying as you can before/during CTC. You never know when it might come in handy.
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CTC's website has now been refreshed as part of their re-branding to become L3. In the section explaining the security bond there is now this new phrase:
I wonder if there is a legal reason for them stating this so clearly?
As I understand it (also, the explanation here), the security bond is:
a) paid to a subsidiary of CTC/L3, the company who conduct your training
b) 'transferred' to an airline if/when you're placed from the hold pool
c) not guaranteed to be repaid, but might be if the airline chooses to
d) if it is repaid, it is likely to be in the form of a tax advantage (essentially an increased personal allowance), your gross salary will not be increased by the security bond amount
In summary, you pay CTC/L3 the security bond. CTC/L3 never directly pay it you back and you might not get it back at all. There might be some financial wizardry which means its not technically paying for training, but it is about as close as it could possibly get. Hence my confusion at their clear statement that it is not.
Please note: This is not payment for training.
As I understand it (also, the explanation here), the security bond is:
a) paid to a subsidiary of CTC/L3, the company who conduct your training
b) 'transferred' to an airline if/when you're placed from the hold pool
c) not guaranteed to be repaid, but might be if the airline chooses to
d) if it is repaid, it is likely to be in the form of a tax advantage (essentially an increased personal allowance), your gross salary will not be increased by the security bond amount
In summary, you pay CTC/L3 the security bond. CTC/L3 never directly pay it you back and you might not get it back at all. There might be some financial wizardry which means its not technically paying for training, but it is about as close as it could possibly get. Hence my confusion at their clear statement that it is not.
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Airline Partners.
Hello all,
I'm just curious as to what the hiring situation is currently like at CTC and at which airlines students are currently being placed. I'm aware that patterns change permitting recruitment needs.
With Jet2, TCX and Ryanair all having their own cadet graduate schemes it'd be nice to know if they still take on a fair number of CTC graduates. If not, which airlines are besides EZY and Flybe?
I'm just curious as to what the hiring situation is currently like at CTC and at which airlines students are currently being placed. I'm aware that patterns change permitting recruitment needs.
With Jet2, TCX and Ryanair all having their own cadet graduate schemes it'd be nice to know if they still take on a fair number of CTC graduates. If not, which airlines are besides EZY and Flybe?
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@Maverick97,
Since I started here cadets have been placed with easyJet, FlyBe, AirTanker (A330 commercial charter operations for the likes of Jet2 and TCX long haul), Norwegian, Aurigny and Aegean to name a few.
Since I started here cadets have been placed with easyJet, FlyBe, AirTanker (A330 commercial charter operations for the likes of Jet2 and TCX long haul), Norwegian, Aurigny and Aegean to name a few.
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The bond has recently come under scrutiny from HMRC, affecting at least one airline. Be careful as it may not be available down the line. Be under no illusion you're not sponsored and you pay the full price for the course. The "bond" is just a tax advantage for the individual. If you are based outside of the UK then you cannot claim the tax advantage.
It certainly used to be able to be transferred between participating airlines and I know of several people who have worked for 2 carriers, both repaying the "bond"
It certainly used to be able to be transferred between participating airlines and I know of several people who have worked for 2 carriers, both repaying the "bond"
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hey everyone. hoping this is the right place to post this..
i sat my CTC assessment in the december just gone and passed everything but PILAPT where i only failed 2/6 tests.
id used sky test to practice for PILAPT, but just not enough.
I was wondering whether anyone can give me a definitive answer as to how the crosshairs you fly in the test are set up.. i believe they are like a normal aircraft's controls (left is left, right is right and pulling back on the joystick makes the horizontal crosshair go up, pushing away from you makes it go down). i think where i went wrong was using skytest, where it appears to be inverted for left to be right, right to be left, and pushing away makes it go up, and pulling towards makes it go down..
any help is really appreciated guys as i just wanna cover all bases!
also happy to answer any questions about the selection for those who havent been yet
i sat my CTC assessment in the december just gone and passed everything but PILAPT where i only failed 2/6 tests.
id used sky test to practice for PILAPT, but just not enough.
I was wondering whether anyone can give me a definitive answer as to how the crosshairs you fly in the test are set up.. i believe they are like a normal aircraft's controls (left is left, right is right and pulling back on the joystick makes the horizontal crosshair go up, pushing away from you makes it go down). i think where i went wrong was using skytest, where it appears to be inverted for left to be right, right to be left, and pushing away makes it go up, and pulling towards makes it go down..
any help is really appreciated guys as i just wanna cover all bases!
also happy to answer any questions about the selection for those who havent been yet
